DKM Z-39 by LED - Dragon - 1:700 - PLASTIC - German destroyer

[LED]

I have completed two recent ship builds - the Tamiya 1/350 Fletcher and the Tamiya 1/700 Repulse.  I picked the Fletcher after absolutely failing on a Trumpeter 1/700 North Carolina.  When I say an 'absolute fail' I do mean it.  What I ended up doing with that partial build will make nobody happy...

Anyway, after researching the web I chose the the Fletcher and then after that the Repulse.  I wanted success and I wanted a build progression.  I loved both kits, but wanted something that could challenge me a bit more.  It has been multiple decades since I built a scale model so there has been learning process - and a bit of a rework process😊

 

I chose this Dragon kit because it gets great reviews for detail and accuracy and because it includes a bit of photo-etch.  I have never worked with photo-etch.  This will be something new...

 

And, look at her!!!
 

 

Ain't she a beaut with that 'dazzle' camo pattern.  That will be a paint challenge.  She seems to have had that scheme right out of the shipyard in late '43 and a monochrome scheme after she took damage and got repaired.  Then again, maybe this photo (which was obviously used by World of Warships when camo'ing their image of the ship) is Fake News.  Who knows.  Don't tell me.  I love accuracy, but I am in lust with this😍

Anyway, for whatever reason everybody posts a photo of the box art and frets - so, here goes:

I guess that really doesn't show it in all it's glory, but me being in a wheelchair kinda limits the angle.  This is how I see the world😁

And, here are the paints I am going to use:

I am getting my Vallejo Model Color color matrix from:  https://app.box.com/s/2hz3x8hp57kqk8qqyu40y0lndkdnc696

 

It seems to be the go to for matching air and naval colors to Vallejo stuff - which I can easily get about 2 miles away.  I am seriously looking at the Sovereign Hobby's stuff once I run out of this.  Part of the Fandango behind the North Carolina is that I ended up with about every paint available for almost any navy.  Ugh.

 

Since I can't read the notes, these are the paints/mixes:

Hull & Superstructure

Hellgrau (light grey)                      70.989 + 70.883                                 Sky Grey + Silver Grey                    Mix 1:1                 Hull & Superstructure

Mittlegrau (medium grey)           70.989 + 70.991                                 Sky Grey + Dark Sea Grey              Mix 1:1                 Hull (Dark Over pattern)

 

Deck:

Dunkelgrau (darkish grey)          70.991 + 70.987                Dark Sea Grey + Medium Grey   Mix 3:1                 Deck
 

As 'The Noob of Noobs' I really like it when folks document their paint.

 

Questions:

• Given this amount of photo-etch (minimal) what tool(s) should I expect to use/purchase?
• And, how can I save paint after I mix it.  That was a problem with the Repulse.  I never got the same color/tone multiple times.

 

And, a comment:  Yowser, RGL and I have extremely similar tastes.  I find a potential subject using that well laid out PDF and there he is with a build.  I'm doing this public build here because of that dude.  He and some others around here were the reason I found this site.  I'm looking at you CDW and COG.  My research pointed right here.  GLHF.

[LED]

These build logs are wonderful:

RGL:

MikaH:  

 

[Canute]

LED, welcome aboard. That's quite the resource for Vallejo paints. Looking forward to see how your build turns out.

 

[king derelict]

I built the Dragon 1/700 Z38 and it was an enjoyable build. That was a simple grey hull so you should have a lot more fun. They are nice kits

Alan

[Old Collingwood]

Another  Welcome  to  our little world,  will be watching with  interest.

 

OC.

[RGL]

Welcome 

[LED]

Thanks for the nice comments...

 

I kept finding this site when Googlin' builds for the North Carolina, Fletcher, and Repulse.  The NC build kinda s31t the bed, the Fletcher was quite a bit better after reviewing RGL's build, and the Repulse came out pretty good after finding a nice build in another site.  I think I am ready for a public build.  It will be OOB, but I think this kit will shine OOB.  This is where I am at.  When I bump to 1/350 I may try railings or even some rigging - but, not now...  

 

The instructions look very well laid out and clear.  They even credit some relatively well known modelers (maybe, don't know - too new at this) as 'Project Supervisors' - Rob McCune and Timothy Dike.  You can actually read Dike's review of this kit here...  He was spot on.  His unpainted photos will help me deal with the photo etch.  It is much easier to see the final shape of a 'complex' fold when there is not a lot of camo painted on it.

 

CyberModeler gave the 1/350 Dragon Z-38 a Skill Level tag of 'Experienced'.  After looking at the sprues I would hazard this 1/700 kit is likely for the experienced modeler as well.  By experienced, I don't mean 'God's Gift to the Modeling World', I just mean lots of small parts.  I think I can handle that at this point.

 

After close review of RGL's and MikaH's builds I am going to prime early and paint in major structures.  There is a simple 'wavish' camo pattern on the funnels - but I don't think it flows into the superstructure - which will be a good thing...  After the Repulse, I don't think the dazzle pattern will be a kill shot.  Keepin' on keepin'...

 

This kit did not include mines.  I wonder if I can get a rack of them at 1/700???  They look awesome.

 

BTW, my thoughts on storing the mixed paint for the base hull color:

1. Uh, I have two colors
2. That means I have two bottles
3. So, in a mixing jar the paint contents go
4. And, then the mixed paint goes back into the bottles.

My next kit is the Academy Admiral Graf Spee - so, I will need that mix again soon anyway!!!

[LED]

So, I'm woefully unprepared for this build.

 

The PE is part of every sub-assembly excepting the hull.  I have no tools for photo-etch.  I wasn't expecting that.  I thought I could get the major assemblies done without the PE, but some of the PE is deep in the build and kinda locked in place.  

 

Can anyone provide a list of the basics?

 

My 'research' indicates:

1. A pair of PE pliers
2. A good (diamond) file
3. And, maybe a bending tool

I don't want to break the bank, but I do want decent equipment.  I will be using PE on my next builds.

 

This video from 'Norwegian Modelling Bench' is the best discussion I have found - but, his skill and his needs are far beyond what I am looking to attain three models into this...  I just need the basics for this kit.  I can get more stuff for either the Graf Spee or the FFG-57 when I start using some after-market.

 

Also, do I have to do anything special regarding the priming and/or paint for PE?  Opinions differ radically.

 

 

 

[king derelict]

I'm still learning how to use PE but I would recommend the following basics. 

 

A hard surface to cut on. I use a piece of acrylic but I have seen glass or metal mentioned.

A scalpel to cut with. I use a round profile blade. You can use the scalpel or a single sided razor blade to slide under a piece of PE trapped under a steel rule and bend it up against the straight edge. That works for straight bends. A series of drill bits can be used for curved bends. 

I use Vallejo primer on PE and it sticks quite well but I think you have design yourself to touch ups if the PE is going to get handled.

I haven't really used OR pliers. I bought a set and the jaws quickly went out of line.

 

I do have PE benders and rollers they are great but pricey. I started out with the stuff above and it all worked fine for the average OR

 

Hope this helps

 

Alan

 

 

 

 

[LED]

12 minutes ago, king derelict said:

I'm still learning how to use PE but I would recommend the following basics. 

 

A hard surface to cut on. I use a piece of acrylic but I have seen glass or metal mentioned.

A scalpel to cut with. I use a round profile blade. You can use the scalpel or a single sided razor blade to slide under a piece of PE trapped under a steel rule and bend it up against the straight edge. That works for straight bends. A series of drill bits can be used for curved bends. 

I use Vallejo primer on PE and it sticks quite well but I think you have design yourself to touch ups if the PE is going to get handled.

I haven't really used OR pliers. I bought a set and the jaws quickly went out of line.

 

I do have PE benders and rollers they are great but pricey. I started out with the stuff above and it all worked fine for the average OR

 

Hope this helps

 

Alan

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks for the advice @king derelict.

 

Quote

A scalpel to cut with. I use a round profile blade. You can use the scalpel or a single sided razor blade to slide under a piece of PE trapped under a steel rule and bend it up against the straight edge. That works for straight bends. A series of drill bits can be used for curved bends.

 

Based on what I see from your comment I can get rolling.  Hopefully, we will see actual progress tomorrow in my thread!!!  I have a nice piece of heavy glass downstairs.  I'll grab it tomorrow and get my game face going.  And, bend my knee praying to the Gods of Scale Modeling.  This is going to be a tough build for me.  But fun.

Edited February 4, 2023 by LED

[king derelict]

Sorry. Autocorrect insists that PE should be OR and I missed a couple in my reply.

For me the key to PE is planning the sequence of bends so you can access the area to bend as needed

Good luck

Alan

 

 

[LED]

And, as promised!!!

 

The "Amazing My Ship is Primed Photo"

 

 

I will attempt light 'oil-can' with pre-shading since @RGL did all the work in his thread.  However, I'm not going to scribe the hull plates because this kit is in 1/700 scale and this ship was in this paint scheme for about four to six months.  She became operational in January '44, did a bunch of mine-laying work in the Baltic, and was damaged in June '44 whereupon she was sent back to the shipyard.  I think the pre-shading will 'oil-can' the ship enough for six months of hard duty.  Plus, I don't think I have the skill to do real 'oil-canning' - but, we won't go there.  Also, I think I will try the more advanced stuff RGL does at 1/350.  And, I might not document a potential failure here😁

 

I'm really hoping the primer sticks to that photo etch.  It seems to have, so off we go...

 

The hull grey the Germans used seems to be more silvery and lighter.  This is using the color chart I linked in the topic lead and my using the Mark I Eyeball for a 1 to 1 mix of those colors.  Plus, when I look at the two kit builds documented here and another I have found I think that is true.  She will be a good looking ship.  Hope she does not turn into:  1st) A Glue Blob, and/or 2nd) A Paint Blob  -another reason for limiting the number of primer coats on this 1/700 scale model.

BTW, this kit is exceptional.  I have not glued a single part together, but I can see the detail.  It is amazing.  And, for the first time I don't think I am going to sway from the instruction sheet in any meaningful way.  Man, the instructions are laid out the way a ship modeler builds out.  You guys would like this kit.

 

GLHF

 

[Canute]

I like Tamiya Fine Gray primer; seems to stick better to the PE. Comes in a rattle can and goes on nice and thin. Tamiya has a Gray primer in rattle cans, too, but it's a little thicker. I believe it's a leveling primer to fill in some oopsies.

[LED]

Well,

 

This thread will include the mistakes as well.  The Vallejo Model Color Flat Black has a completely different viscosity (consistency???) than the other colors I have used.  Between 'the runs' (it is a very 'slippery color') and my lousy skillset with the airbrush my pre-shading went to heck.  I actually ended up kinda fixing the mess with a few of those Tamiya weathering q-tips.  Oh, the humanity.

 

 

By the way, the Vallejo Hull Red is a bit difficult to work with as well - for the exact opposite reason as the flat black.  I had a hard time finding the right mix to get it coming out of the airbrush.  On the positive, once I got that set the hull red line was rock solid - there will be no need for touch up.  The actual color is a touch redder than how it appears here.

 

I think the pre-shading will actually work.  It will take more work than I expected with the hull grey, but I should be able to feather it in.  I am also going to rattle can the bootstripe with my trusty old Tamiya Flat Black.

 

This is going to be a slow build.  Now off to building the structures and masts.  Pray for me😇

[LED]

Anyone want a photo after the clear coat was applied???  😝

 

I am thinking the hull red paint is relatively fragile.  It kinda seems so, therefore the clear coat to protect my nice new 'waterline'.  The next thing to do is to mask the red a little above the line - or if the black is wide enough then leave that as the waterline.  Then try to pre-shade the mess I created.  Finally, clear coat again and apply masking for the cool dazzle.

 

On perusing lots of your builds I notice that most (all???) of you glue the deck to the hull prior to painting.  I have been painting it separately.  Is there a reason for this or is it just personal preference?

Finally, I ordered Tamiya bending pliers.  Yup, I got suckered, but I at least know they will be quality pliers.  I should have paid more attention to what they actually were.  I could have bought them at Home Depot...  I also ordered a head mounted lamp with magnifying glasses.  Finally, I'm getting new glasses tomorrow.  When did this cheap hobby get so damn expensive🤑

[king derelict]

I never got on well with my Tamiya PE pliers. The jaws quickly went out of alignment. Possibly it was just a dud pair. The magnifiers with light are a big help to me.

I tend to stick the hull to something that I can hold to minimise handling of the model. I use a piece of plastic packing material liberated from work and double sided tape. Others use paint bottle tops and blu tack.

There is a big deep hole of tools that you can throw money into

Alan

[LED]

4 minutes ago, king derelict said:

I never got on well with my Tamiya PE pliers. The jaws quickly went out of alignment. Possibly it was just a dud pair. The magnifiers with light are a big help to me.

I tend to stick the hull to something that I can hold to minimise handling of the model. I use a piece of plastic packing material liberated from work and double sided tape. Others use paint bottle tops and blu tack.

There is a big deep hole of tools that you can throw money into

Alan

 

I've been poking though your builds.  You seem to glue the main deck to the hull early in the build.  Is there a reason for that style?

I like to paint it separately, but I am open for suggestions...

[king derelict]

In my flow of build I end up painting the main deck before painting the superstructure so I tend to

1 assemble hull, deck and main structure elements

2 Prime

3 paint the main deck

4 Mask the main deck

5 paint hull and structures if they are the same colour

6 Mask hull and paint structures if they are different

7 Add details and touch up.

I'm not claiming this is the most efficient way but it works for me

Alan

[Joe100]

Typically, you’ll find that folks build ships in sub-assemblies, with an eye for painting. This means they will build, say, the hull, all of its details, and then paint. Right down to the railings. This has a number of advantages. Firstly, it allows you to build the model without damaging the paint when assembling, handling.  Secondly, when it comes time to paint, you can prime all at once, to marry the dissimilar materials. The paint will look more uniform if done all at once instead of each part painted individually then added to the model. My superstructure sub assemblies will be different depending on how the decks are painted, camouflage, etc. Essentially, I build so that I won’t build myself into a corner, so to speak, with regard to painting. 
 

I tend to use a dark primer, dark grey or dark green for my ships. This means that you’ll need to airbrush on the color coats in thinner, more numerous layers, but I feel it gives the ship more depth. 
 

Weather on KM ships is fine, but work from photos. Far too often I see very dirty, rusty, ships, but the KM kept their surface ships in pretty good knick most of the time, especially capital ships. Take a look at photos and work from there. 
 

Keep up the good work!
 

 

[LED]

 

Thanks for the advice...

 

I have perused this site and others - and, ahem, actually read this kit's instructions - and came to the conclusion that I needed:

• A glue that worked well with PE - and would give me time to fiddle
• A decent magnifying headset with a light
• And, a pair of bending tweezers

Everything is coming at me in separate packages, with shipping times into the eons 😄.  Turns out the photo-etch bending tweezers are kinda not needed - and those showed up almost immediately.  Got my glue last night.  My headset will show up Monday.  And, now I have to break down my 'modeling bench' - really just an ironing board with some butcher paper over it - to deal with washing/ironing work clothes.  Ugh.

 

I think I'll wait till I get that headset.  It is kinda the most important of the purchases.  Man ALL that photo etch is small and there are a LOT of fiddly plastic bits as well.  Every single discrete construction step in this kit includes PE.  I cannot get around it other than by not incorporating it.

 

Again, thanks for the painting and construction advice.

 

GLHF

[Canute]

You may also want to look at Canopy Glue for your PE glue. It looks like a thick white glue. Originally for the RC airplane folks to stick their canopies on. I've used it to hold brass and stainless PE to plastic and it holds up if your model moves from warm to cold environments. And it cleans up with water.

 

Should find it in a Hobbytown, since many of them seem to cater to the RC folks..

[king derelict]

2 hours ago, Canute said:

You may also want to look at Canopy Glue for your PE glue. It looks like a thick white glue. Originally for the RC airplane folks to stick their canopies on. I've used it to hold brass and stainless PE to plastic and it holds up if your model moves from warm to cold environments. And it cleans up with water.

 

Should find it in a Hobbytown, since many of them seem to cater to the RC folks..

Gators Grip and the similar product from Mig Ammo have similar properties. They give you time to get a good placement of the PE. They also dry with some flexibility which means the part doesn't break off as easily as when glued with .CA which is brittle. I like the GG thin version best.

Alan

[Canute]

Get the Gator Grip glue by emailing your request to the address on this website: https://gatorsmodelstudio.com/gators-grip-hobby-glue/

I don't think he sells thru retailers. But I use this, too.

[Landlubber Mike]

Nice start!  For primer, I like using Mr. Surfacer.  You can get it in a rattle can or get it in a jar that you have to mix with thinner (I love Mr. Color Leveling Thinner).  It comes in lots of colors, including white, grey and black so you can use it not only as a primer, but as an undercoat/first coat.

 

For PE, I usually use medium CA that I apply with the head of a pin.  I've come around a little to also using Gators Grip white glue, which works pretty well but takes longer to set.  For me, I like medium CA in that there is a 5-20 second set time, and if I need it to set quicker, I can just use an accelerant to get an instant bond.  I use a very fine pair of tweezers from Dumont (pricey) for most PE work.  For bends, the Tamiya ones work well, and if you ever get into sets with larger PE, I have a couple of the folding sets from The Small Shop.

 

I saw your note on the Vallejo running.  It looks like you might be using Vallejo Model Color in your airbrush?  That line is intended to be brush painted.  You can run Model Color through your airbrush, but you would need to thin it.  It's better to just use Vallejo Model Air if you are shooting through an airbrush.  I find I get better results using a little of Vallejo's Thinner and/or Flow Improver in the airbrush as well.

[LED]

And, tossed...

 

Two broken masts, one lost part, and the writing is on the wall.

 

The plastic is extremely brittle, the sprue attachments are huge in relation to the part, and the fit is weird.  Additionally, it is odd what they think is a necessary additional part.  A cross member of a tripod mast - but, only one of them.  My guess is that they want to increase the part count to make the build more challenging.  Anyway, weird.

 

Based on what I am finding during the build - the quality of the plastic results in the smaller parts being brittle - I don't think it would survive even if completed.  I'm not into scratch building at this time and I don't want to buy a second kit to keep a build looking good.  This thing will break if the sun shines on it.

 

So, writing Dragon off my kit manufacturer list.  Not a good experience.

 

On the positive side, I handled my first PE ok.  The included PE was really well done.  It wasn't too fragile and allowed me to make mistakes and fix them with re-bends.  The detail offered by the PE was amazing.  The only issue is that I primed the PE on the fret.  I think I will prime/paint after structural build next time.  That's my fault.

 

Oh well, better luck next time.  My next kit is going to be a Tamiya 1/700 Rodney.  It won't break, the parts won't be useless, and it will go together smoothly.

[king derelict]

Try something from the Flyhawk range. I think they are excellent kits for details,got and design. My first kit was the Flyhawk HMS Lance and it was a rude shock opening the box on my following Trumpeter kit

Alan