HMS Diana 1794 by DaveBaxt - Caldercraft - 1:64

[DaveBaxt]

I have cut out the recession the inner Hull for the 4mm beams for boat supports

More thoughts on Gun ports and there lids. I am unsure why there are only 8 lids but there must be a simple answer to this.

  The lids measure 14mm x 12mm which after lining the 16mm x 14mm hole with 1mm think walnut this would be correct. However if I wish to line the gunport with o.5mm I am  unsure to make the hole smaller or the lids bigger. The lids are supposed to lie flush with the hull. The second layer of planking is 1mm thick and the lids are 1.5mm thick, so I will need to recess the lining 0.5mm but this sounds a bit tricky to me.

       As this ships first planking is lime and not walnut although this is easier to bend I Don t think it is as strong. I therefore thought about some additional upright frames 14mm apart to strengthen the hull planking whilst cutting the gunports. This is a similar idea to DaveEN approach who fitted the linings prior to the outside Hull planking. Nice idea Dave.

I am still thinking of some sort of frame to get the correct height from the deck. Perhaps I should have considered planking throughout with walnut.

 

Here is the jig for fitting the frames either side of the gunports

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Edited May 11, 2023 by DaveBaxt

[chris watton]

Having only a few gun port lids on the upper, or as is the case for a frigate like Diana, the main gundeck, was standard practice, it seems, for the British ships at least. It is important to note that the crew did not actually sleep on the gun deck, but the deck below. This was the nice thing about working on a frigate, each crewman had a lot more space to themselves than larger, or smaller vessels.

Edited May 7, 2023 by chris watton

[DaveBaxt]

46 minutes ago, chris watton said:

Having only a few gun ports lids on the upper, or as is the case for a frigate like Diana, the main gundeck, was standard practice, it seems, for the British ships at least. It is important to note that the crew did not actually sleep on the gun deck, but the deck below. This was the nice thing about working on a frigate, each crewman had a lot more space to themselves than larger, or smaller vessels.

      Thanks Chris for the clarification . It seems to me that Sailing on a frigate must have been preferable to sailing on some other ships.

 

[Gregory]

2 hours ago, DaveBaxt said:

there are only 8 lids but there must be a simple answer to this.

Gunport lids served no purpose on a weather deck.    The enclosed spaces would benefit from them.

[DaveBaxt]

16 minutes ago, Gregory said:

Gunport lids served no purpose on a weather deck.    The enclosed spaces would benefit from them.

Thank you Gregory for your input which is interesting. I assume the weather deck is the upper open deck on the Diana . It is the lower deck that I now understand has only 8 of the 28 gun ports that have lids or at least on the model it does. This  is what I could not understand. Up until now I thought all enclosed gun decks had all their gun ports with lids. I am assuming an enclosed deck still has ventelation holes and hatch openings. I would be grateful if you would clarify if any of the above is not the case

Thank you again.Best regards Dave

[Gregory]

The circled ports would have no lids.  I'm not sure about 1 or two more forward and aft.  It would depend on intervening bulkheads.  In the absence of bulkheads, the free movement of air and water would be desirable.

[chris watton]

If you look at a 2 or 3 decker, you will see the same, the upper gun deck (which incorporates the Weather Deck) has few gun port lids

 

PS - Diana was my very first wooden ship kit design (25 years ago)! I have learned a lot since then, so apologies for its many shortcomings.....

Edited May 7, 2023 by chris watton

[DaveBaxt]

50 minutes ago, chris watton said:

If you look at a 2 or 3 decker, you will see the same, the upper gun deck (which incorporates the Weather Deck) has few gun port lids

 

PS - Diana was my very first wooden ship kit design (25 years ago)! I have learned a lot since then, so apologies for its many shortcomings.....

No Worries Chris all part of the learning curve. It has Definately got the grey matter working. Thank you Gregory for the excellent photo clearly showing no lids . However I have just seen a photo where the 3 gun ports aft heve and the one forward with 8 all together, but now O can't find the thing. Oh well. I will keep looking and see if it turns up and will put it on here. 

Edited May 7, 2023 by DaveBaxt

[Beef Wellington]

Hi Dave, I think you have some latitude, and I don't think anyone can definitively say how it was.  Included below are some pictures I took at the Annapolis museum, so sorry for the poor picture quality.  You can see that the frigate does not have any port lids at all (not sure which model this is), and the two decker shows ports only in the more extreme end of the hull, i.e. open around about the open deck.  Despite Chris beating himself up unecessarily, I don't think the kit representation is really that out of whack with historical likelihood.  My suspicion is the port lids are added primarly where there would have been a permanent or semi-permanent cabin for obvious reasons.

[DaveBaxt]

Thank you again Jason for adding some more photos of frigates and I don,t  think I will worry too much now about the gun port lids but I might add the ones if I find they are not going to foul anything else as I think in the right place they would look good. It would be interesting to know what other modellers have done with their frigates and the Diana in particular. For what it is worth the AOTS Diana has the aft 6 ports fitted with gunport lids and in the closed position and also the forward 2 . So it seems there is some evidence that these were possibly used or could this be a mistake. I don,t want to dwell on this too much more although I will be looking at different frigates a bit more closely in the future. Thank you guys for taking your time up adding your thoughts it is always appreciated. Best regards dave

[chris watton]

The amount of gun ports lids I added for the Diana kit is correct, I would not add any more.

[allanyed]

Hi David

Adding to Jason's fine photos, note that when you do get to making the ports remember the port stops (linings) were normally on the sides and bottom, not the top  of the port.  They are set back to be even with the outboard edge of the frames/bulkheads so the lid can close properly and be aligned with the planking.  There are photos of a number of models here at MSW where the linings are sticking out beyond the sills and frames and very thick, even though this was never done in real practice.  There is an excellent description and set of drawings in The Fully Framed Model by David Antscherl in volume II, pp.69-70 regarding the port stops which he also mentions these were about 1.5" thick (0.6mm at your scale).  Couple more pictures below are also of a contemporary model at Preble Hall and describes better than words.

Allan

  

[DaveBaxt]

Thank you Allan for posting that perfectly timed photo which clearly shows the linings. I am now going to need to re think as I thought the lining would cover up a multitude of sins before adding the final layer of planking and would need to change my measurements too. I will need to fit a spacer inside the gap so will think about adding before starting on the first layer of outboard planking. I have already started adding vertical uprights on the Stb side but these are for strength only which I thought I would need whilst drilling and filing the ports..

II can also see from your photo that there is clearly a lip on the sides and bottom of the gun port and what is a very beautiful model too. Thank you one again.Best regards dave

Edited May 8, 2023 by DaveBaxt

[allanyed]

Maybe you can make a box for each port that would be the equivalent of the sills and what would be frames.  The sills can be overly long to fit between the bulkheads or your filler pieces.  The following is just a quick sketch of one imaginary solution but others may have found better solutions.

Allan

[DaveBaxt]

Thanks Allan that is pretty much what I have just done and it has worked out pretty well for the first  part any way.  I also made a piece of wood now 15 mm high. I used this small cutting tool to ensure the bottom edge followed the deck and then fitted the bottom support and then used the piece of wood 15mm high as a template , so the top support would be parallel to the bottom support. The sides are parallel to the buklheads ( simulating frames) and not the water line. I think it has worked out pretty well so far. After the sides were drilled with small holes. I found the knife was better for shaving the wood off the inside of the frame, especially in the corners and using the wood frame as a guide for the knife

Just another 23 ports to go and fit the liners next . 

T

Thanks also for the drawing, which has confirms what I need to do. Best regards Dave

Edited May 9, 2023 by DaveBaxt

[allanyed]

19 hours ago, DaveBaxt said:

After the sides were drilled with small holes. I found the knife was better for shaving the wood off the inside of the frame, especially in the corners and using the wood frame as a guide for the knife

Looking good!  I typically do the same thing, drilling a series of holes then cleaning up with knife, files, and sandpaper stick.    Just remember the stops/linings are only about 1.5" thick (0.6mm at your scale).    

Allan

Edited May 10, 2023 by allanyed

[DaveBaxt]

Oh  dear!  Caldercraft instruct the linings as 1 mm thick . So 0.6 is going to throw my calculations out a bit. The only way I can get at 0.6mm is to make a lip somewhere near the 0.6. I don't think the inside matters too much as it will all be painted red orche so will not be seen too much. I also forgot to make the bottom plank on the inside thicker for the spirketting so I am thinking of adding  8mm x 1mm wood which wood come up to the bottom of the gun port( this can clearly be seen on one of the  photos you added Allan. What I can,t work out is do I need to add a waterway as well as the spirketing as I have already fitted a margin plank. I think I need a waterway as there are also scuppers to add too. Hopefully this will all look ok when finished. Hopefully all will look ok, even though I have already made a couple of mistakes.

Progress so far

Good job you are keeping an eye on my progress which is really appreciated. Best regards Dave

Edited May 11, 2023 by DaveBaxt

[allanyed]

1 hour ago, DaveBaxt said:

Oh  dear Caldercraft have got the linings as 1 mm thick    The only way I can get at 0.6mm is to make a lip somewhere near the 0.6.

I realize most observers would never notice the difference or even realize something like this was of any consequence but as it matters to you, is there any local veneer supplier nearby? There is Nantwich veneers in NW England, so a bit far for you, but maybe worth contacting.   0.5mm veneer seems to a pretty common size and would be closer to the desired 0.6 than 1.0mm.    Rather than wood, maybe measure some cardboard backing from a tablet or something similar to see if it is closer to the 1mm wood.  I just measured a couple pieces of card from two different notepads and both were a tick over 0.5mm.  Add the red paint and you are really close.  As the side linings are somewhat trapezoidal when finished it is easiest to make them oversize and then trim.  That being the case, I think wood will be easier to trim and sand flush with the inboard planking compared to card stock, but it might be a good alternative to try.  

Cheers

Allan

[DaveBaxt]

Allan I have some 0.5mm walnut so I could use that. However I have already cut the ports to take 1mm so unless I make the ports bigger than whats needed the guns barrels will not fit centrally. My initial idea is to fit the 1mm lining and then when I fit the final layer of planking leave a 0.6mm lip on sides and bottom which is what it looks like on the drawing.  Although you will see a 1mm edge of the hull planking you will hopefully only see  0.6mm of the edge of the linings .I think this is what is also suggested by Caldercraft in their drawing below Thank you again for all your help and some very good alternative ideas. Best regards Dave

Edited May 10, 2023 by DaveBaxt

[allanyed]

Your solution sounds good to me😀  Maybe some others have ideas on this as well.  The fact that you are taking care to do these things is admirable.

Allan

[DaveBaxt]

My thoughts at present are mainly the oar holes or lack of them. I think doors for these are fitted to the outside but not sure if these are actually holes in the side. I am still thinking of fitting a spirketting and clamps top and bottom of the gun ports ( inside planking). I got this information fromPeter goodwins book the 'Sailing Man of War' I also found that DaveEN log of the Diana show some very good oar holes as well as spirketting and deck clamps which all look very good. Also he has added some decorative rail on the inside planking which adds a lot of interest and looks very good but i am unable to find any evidence that this is fitted but does look really good.

            I  notice Allan's previously added photo does not show either the oar holes or the decorative strip, but does show the Spirketting and deck clamps.  Lots more to think about whilst I finishi off the gun ports and  before starting on the external planking.

[DavidEN]

Hi Dave,

 

I think that the ''decorative strip'' you are referring to is the skid beam clamp. This runs along above the gunports and provides further support for the skid beams. You can see this in the AOTSD book on page 61 drawing C7/2 item 5 and page 108 drawing G1/6 and drawing G1/7 item 10.

 

Regards,

David

[DaveBaxt]

12 minutes ago, DavidEN said:

Hi Dave,

 

I think that the ''decorative strip'' you are referring to is the skid beam clamp. This runs along above the gunports and provides further support for the skid beams. You can see this in the AOTSD book on page 61 drawing C7/2 item 5 and page 108 drawing G1/6 and drawing G1/7 item 10.

 

Regards,

David

Thank you David for keeping  my right. You have a really good eye at looking at the AOTS drawings, most of which are still a mystery to me. David , can you remember what material you used. I know you can get different profile walnut from Cornwall ship models or did you just use a couple of very small walnut square stock or similar. I know Jason ( Beeef Wellington) makes his own rail but as yet I haven't mastered that skill. By the way your gun ports look terrific. 

[allanyed]

Hi David,

I think it is terminology, but not sure what you mean by clamps top and bottom.  You probably know this, but in case we are talking about two different things, the clamps are thick strakes of inboard planking on which deck beams rest.  As your upper deck is in place, only the QD and FC clamps would be going in.  Is this what you are referencing?   Pics below of Diana model at RMG, profile and inboard profile.   The inboard profile shows the clamps in magenta.   Note that there are too many beams on the plan as it shows original design and modified or perhaps as-built locations.  Also note that the model does not show the sweep ports.  The profile plan does show them.  The high res versions on the WikiCommons site are easier to see regarding details but too large to attach here.

Allan

 

 

[DaveBaxt]

Allan. My source is Peter Goodwins book The construction and fitting of Sailing Man of War.Here is the drawing-

Hope this works , as I am doing it from my phone.

Here is a photo of the deck clamp on another Diana model. I am not familar with the name but assume this is what hs been added to another modellers ship. perhaps you have something else in mind her is the decorative strip I was talking about earlier.

I  hope David does not mind me using his HMS Diana for representation. 

Edited May 11, 2023 by DaveBaxt

[DavidEN]

Further clarification

 

[allanyed]

I see what you mean.  I had not seen any of the clamps as a decorative strip/molding before as it is really just a thick plank but why not have a little showiness😀?  FWIW the forecastle deck clamp on a 38 according to the Elements and Practice of Naval Architecture and The Ship Builder's Repository is 4" thick compared to the planking above and below at about 2" thick.  Rather than being decorative, in the former, it is bearded down to 3" at the lower edge.  For the QD, the clamp is 4" thick and bearded to 3" in the Elements and Practice of Naval Architecture and 3.5" in the S.R. In all cases the breadth is to be such that it works down to the upper deck gun ports as shown in the photo in post #85 by Dave Baxt.   

 

Regarding skid beams this is a new configuration for me as well.   I had always seen them as in the photos below on contemporary models.  Goodwin shows them as well on page 210.  DaveEN can you share the source of the design in the photo above?  

 

Hope all of this is a little help.

Allan

Edited May 11, 2023 by allanyed

[DaveBaxt]

 Allan and David. Your patience holds no bounds and forgive my ignorance and  trying to clear this up for me. So there is no deck clamp fitted on your Diana   only the skid beam clamp and spirketting fitted. Please forgive my mistake I also thought there was a deck clamp fitted on your other photo I posted.

            Thank you also Allan for posting some more great photos but I can only make out the spirketting and not the deck clamps so will need to do some more reading on this as I am not entirely sure what I am looking at other than Daves photos and the drawing I posted. The link to page 210 in Goodwins book also clearly shows the deck clamp and the scuppers, which is something else I wll possibly need to fit aswell . So it would be safe to add the deck clamp above the gun port with it being bearded  at the bottom, although I do like the look of Daves skid beam clamp ( page 61 AOTS Diana item 5 DaveEN's reference) I appreciate all the help you are giving me guys.Thank you Best regards Dave

Edited May 11, 2023 by DaveBaxt

[Beef Wellington]

Think photos of the actual items may be clearest.  These are of Trincomalee and show them running the full length of the deck.  Given that the strakes directly under the beam would not really be seen, there is opportunity for simplification on the model.

Edited May 11, 2023 by Beef Wellington

[DaveBaxt]

Thanks for those great photos Jason. They really show us and other stuff in detail and these photos have cleared a few things up too. So well done .

I  will have to take another look at the Trincomalee which is about 30 mins in the car from me. I had my better half and Grand son with me last time and I need to take more photos of the ship than my Grandson next time Ha ha!

After reading up Peter Goodwins book together with the afore mentioned photographes the normal skid beam clamps are not supplied by CC and I think are probably beyond my skill level in making them. However I think David's idea together with AOTS Diana of using the decretive strip under the length of the skid beams is an excellent solution to this. I also think that the fitting of what will look like deck clamps(  My next ship will be fitted with thicker material in this area should be fitted.)

         This subject has been facinating to say the least and evey day there is more to learn. Again a big thank you to Allan & David for their time and patience. Best regards Dave

Edited May 14, 2023 by DaveBaxt