'Limber' Channels

[tmj]

Were limber 'chains' ever used within the limber channels to dislodge debris, etc., or were the limber boards simply removed and the limber channels manually cleaned out by hand? 

[mtaylor]

I've read that they used but it was never defined as to era, ship class, or nation.  British seemed to mentioned as I recall more than any other country.  I suspect that we modelers just ignore them as they would be hidden.

[tmj]

28 minutes ago, mtaylor said:

I've read that they used but it was never defined as to era, ship class, or nation.  British seemed to mentioned as I recall more than any other country.  I suspect that we modelers just ignore them as they would be hidden.

I read that too, somewhere, a long time ago. I might display such hanging out of the ends of my Victory cross section limber-channels, but not sure. My biggest curiosity was pertaining to how they would have actually been used. Would it have been just one, single, length of chain to be crudely dragged back and forth to dislodge stuff, or would it have possibly been a circular length of chain, wrapped around something like a 'pulley', on each end of the chain, where the chain could be constantly rotated in one direction, or another to not only dislodge debris, but also drag that debris to a desired location where it could be easily cleaned out, somewhat like a rotating 'bicycle chain'. I'm wondering if I need to display only one chain hanging out of each limber channel, or should there be 'two' chains hanging out of the end of each channel...??? "Hmm."

[Bob Cleek]

I expect limber chains (or rope line, considering the cost of chain in earlier times) would certainly have been run through the limber holes in the bilge when the condition of the average bilge during the Age of Sail is considered if for no other reason than that the bilge's usual contents were highly likely to clog the limber holes. Especially in foul weather, although likely in any instance where it was simply more convenient, the bilges were used to answer "nature's call" be it "number one" or "number two." A modeler need only consider the number of souls aboard a ship-of-the-line and the number of "seats of ease" provided in the heads and the officer's cabins to confirm that there was a decided shortage of "facilities" aboard a sailing vessel of any size. Consequently, the contents of any bilge would hardly be susceptible to being willingly "cleaned out manually." At the moment, I can't remember where, but I once read someplace that one of the most onerous tasks aboard ship was cleaning the bilge and for that reason it was generally left for the shipyard workers when a ship was being refitted rather than ever by the crew when she was in commission. 

[tmj]

I've read how bad bilges could be on many ships, especially pirate ships, however. Wouldn't first rate military vessels, typically being run as a much tighter ships than most, vehemently frown on such behavior as using the bilge as a toilet... and likely harshly punish anyone caught doing so? I'm just supposing here. It seems as though military discipline, aboard ship, was much, much harsher back in those old days than it was while 'I' was in the Navy in a more modern era.        

[allanyed]

7 hours ago, tmj said:

I've read how bad bilges could be on many ships, especially pirate ships, however

I would love to read more about this, could please post your source?  From what I have read by historian Markus Rediker he indicates that pirate ships were well organized and worked more as a democracy and team. with councils rather than having a captain fully in charge except in time of battle.  As they were working more as a team I would think they would not be keen on some team member fouling the ship unnecessarily.

Allan

Edited September 12, 2023 by allanyed

[Jack-in-the-Blue]

In the days before flush toilets, wasn’t it universally ‘normal’ behaviour to use a chamber pot/commode (bucket) when a person didn’t wish to go outside to the privy?
 

I lack evidence but think it likely that a sailor in a hurry would vomit or poop in a bucket as necessary and (discreetly or not) empty it into the sea later. 

[allanyed]

With only a few seats of ease for a crew of hundreds, I believe you are correct in that buckets were a commonly used item for seasickness as well as defecation.  There were also pissdales for urinating.

Allan

[Jack-in-the-Blue]

8 hours ago, tmj said:

especially pirate ships

 

Maybe you are thinking about those galleys with the slaves/criminals chained to their oars until death intervened. Legend has it that they could be smelt a mile downwind.

[Bob Cleek]

For those interested in such things, see: Hygienic Notes on Ships' Bilges | Proceedings - 1876 Vol. 2/1/2 (usni.org)

 

One wonders exactly what the Navy was so concerned about disinfecting in the bilges of Navy vessels. 

[Bob Cleek]

1 hour ago, Jack-in-the-Blue said:

In the days before flush toilets, wasn’t it universally ‘normal’ behaviour to use a chamber pot/commode (bucket) when a person didn’t wish to go outside to the privy?
 

I lack evidence but think it likely that a sailor in a hurry would vomit or poop in a bucket as necessary and (discreetly or not) empty it into the sea later. 

Real sailors don't get sea sick.  

 

Buckets are relatively inconvenient things on a sailing ship. They tend to slide around if left to their own devices and are prone to getting knocked over. I doubt a chamber pot was ever carried on a naval ship in the Age of Sail unless there were a lady aboard. Emptying a bucket over the side of a three-decker isn't all that easy. Even after you get up onto the rail you've got to clear the not-inconsiderable tumblehome when pitching a full bucket overboard. 

[tmj]

9 hours ago, Jack-in-the-Blue said:

 

Maybe you are thinking about those galleys with the slaves/criminals chained to their oars until death intervened. Legend has it that they could be smelt a mile downwind.

Perhaps that was what I read about. I honestly cannot remember. It's been a long time!

[mtaylor]

11 hours ago, Bob Cleek said:

For those interested in such things, see: Hygienic Notes on Ships' Bilges | Proceedings - 1876 Vol. 2/1/2 (usni.org)

 

One wonders exactly what the Navy was so concerned about disinfecting in the bilges of Navy vessels. 

Disease probably such as dysentery.  It's still a problem. Maybe not so much on ships but ground troops have had issues with various feces born diseases for centuries.  When I was in Nam, we had assorted health problems related to such matters.

[tmj]

This is all fine and dandy, but we seem to be getting off topic. How did the British use their limber chains if and when they were used? Would there have been one chain per channel, or maybe 'two' chains per channel? If anyone can come up with anything definite about this, that would be great. If not, I'll take advantage of my right to artistic licensing and just do something that looks nice whether it is accurate, or not. 

[Bob Cleek]

Sorry, but I can't give you any thing definite about what the Admiralty did with their limber chains in the Age of Sail, or if they even had them. It would seem, of course, that they would have because the chains are essential to keeping the limber holes open, particularly in a vessel where the bilge isn't easily accessible and the larger the vessel, the less accessible their bilges tend to be. I know this from extensive experience with traditionally built classic wooden yachts. Having once worked in a brokerage which specialized in such vessels, I have had occasion to inspect the bilges of a lot of traditionally built vessels. Clogged limber holes are one indication of many that the vessel may not have been well cared for previously. 

 

I can tell you from personal experience that limber chains on a sailing vessel run through the limber holes port and starboard to keep the limber holes open on either tack. Limber chains run continuously from the forwardmost limber hole to the aftermost limber hole and in a large vessel are sometimes separated at the lowest point of the bilge where the bilge pump intakes are located.  As the limber chains remain in place continuously, they are light chain made of a noble metal, either copper, brass, or bronze, so they will not corrode. Great strength isn't a major consideration, since they are not required to carry any heavy load. From time to time as a matter of routine maintenance and "as needed," the limber chains are pulled forward and aft to clear the limber holes which are highly prone to clogging with dirt and debris. This prevents bilge water from being dammed up behind the floor timbers. Usually, each end of the chain extends beyond the end limber hole so that the chain can be pulled back and forth a bit without pulling the chain out of the last limber hole at the other end. Sometimes a "keeper" bar is attached to the end of chains to prevent them from pulling through the last limber hole. Alternately, they may be belayed with a lashing to a pad eye. Modernly, on occasion, the limber chain ends are attached to fixed tension springs which permit pulling them fore and aft and springing back in place centered between the two ends. While I cannot vouch for it, I expect that in a large vessel the limber chains may have been installed in sections terminating at a point below a hatch or scuttle in the bilge. In such fashion, the chains could be pulled in sections with less effort required to overcome the friction of the chain running through the limber holes.

 

I've not been able to locate any other information on limber chains in my not inconsiderable research resources. All I can offer beyond this is that you may wish to study the contract specifications for building Admiralty vessels of the period to see if the type of chains are specified. If they are not, it would not necessarily be indicative of their absence, since they would probably be considered fitting out equipment and not primary construction details, but there's always the chance. Alternately, a study of ships' logs of the period may note routine freeing of the limber holes being completed as scheduled and so provide some clues. You may also consider contacting the management of HMS Victory, or other museum ships to ask what arrangements are evident in the period vessels in their care. 

 

LIMBER CHAIN IN THE FORWARD AREA OF A WELL=MAINTAINED BILGE ON A BOAT WITH BRONZE FLOORS:

 

Edited September 13, 2023 by Bob Cleek

[Mark P]

Good Morning Gentlemen;

 

I can add some facts to this debate: in the early 17th century, the limber holes were cut in the bottom of the floor timbers, adjacent to the keel. To prevent fouling of these holes, and the spaces between them, a rope was placed through them, known as the 'limber rope', or 'keel rope'. The holes were 3-4 inches square. 

 

This is explained in Sir Henry Mainwayring's 'Nautical Dictionary', written by an experienced mariner for the education of gentleman officers who knew nothing of the sea, and of which he produced quite a few handwritten copies around 1630; so this can be taken as a definite feature of ships of the time. How long it continued I cannot say with any certainty; nor exactly when it might have started. However, as Bob says above, the cost of chain, certainly in the earlier periods of sail, would have made its use very unlikely, and I have seen no mention of such in this context.

 

All the best,

 

Mark P

Edited September 13, 2023 by Mark P

[tmj]

Bob Cleek and Mark P... thank you for the information.  You folks have been 'extremely' helpful on this subject. I 'will' be displaying limbers, hanging out of the ends of my sectional model's limber channels, however. I'll not be using chain. My limbers will be constructed from scale sized rope and designed to function in the manner, and for the purpose described by you folks in your posts. As for bilge cleanup and sanitization... I'll leave that to the 1st Lieutenant division, and those who are on punishment detail as a result of disciplinary action and/or Captain's Mast! 😗

 

[bruce d]

From Falconer, 1780:

No mention of chains.

 

HTH,

Bruce

 

[BANYAN]

Hi folks, chains were indeed used, but it appears more so in the later wooden ships (replaced the ropes).  While written in 1919, Desmond describes these as being in use in 19th century wooden ships, in his  "Wooden Ship-Building", page 101:

 

"In wooden vessels these passageways consist of openings cut across outside of frame timbers (these openings are clearly shown on Fig. 212) and as it is necessary to have some method of cleaning out the openings, should dirt fill them, it is usual to either reeve a chain through all openings from bow to stern, leaving the ends in a convenient place for crew to take hold of them, haul chain back and forth and thus clear [the] limber openings of obstructions, or to leave removable boards over the frames and thus by removing a board [the] crew can reach any obstruction in [the] passage and clear it away. The best and most satisfactory method is to use both the chain and loose board.

The passage cut along outside of frame timbers is named the limber; the chain that is run through [the] passage is named a limber chain, and the boards placed over opening left between ceiling and keelson are named limber boards."

 

Also, Charles Davis, also writing of ships built in the latter half of the 19th century onward, in "Building a Wooden Ship", 1918, page 96 describes the chain as:

LIMBER-CHAIN-a chain running through the gutter or limber along the bottom of a vessel inside the planking, and used to clean out the dirt and free or clear the limber, so that water will drain freely to pump well.

 

As Bob pointed out earlier these were probably made of a non-corroding metal and of light construction.  I think another author also describes these, but I have not been able to find that now  

 

cheers

 

Pat
 

Edited September 14, 2023 by BANYAN