Hello from Turil

[Turil]

Hello everyone!

I have no idea how I ended up on this forum, but I'm glad I did. I'd like to start building wooden ship models and have a few questions. But before I get to that maybe a sentence or two about me: I've built plastic airplane models as a kid, then had a very long hiatus and came back to the hobby via Games Workshop Warhammer 40k (a tabletop game) in recent years. However, I enjoyed building the models or little dioramas always much more than playing the game.

• Any modelling tool manufacturers you can recommend or any that I should avoid? Unfortunately I don't have any of my previous tools anymore and am starting from scratch.
• Apart from the obvious tools, what kind of useful helpers would you recommend? I noticed for example on Amati's website things like the loom-a-line rigging jig. Is that handy to have or wasted money? Or this hull support contraption from Artesania Latina. The reason I'm asking is that I'd prefer to purchase these things together with the first model kit, even when I don't need them right away, instead of having to pay for the shipping twice. I live in Austria and most shipping costs are quite high, which brings me to my next question:
• Can anyone recommend an European reseller of the "Model Shipways Lowell Grand Banks Dory" kit? Modelexpo-online would ship it to Austria, for 75,- USD shipping. Ouch! And that is before taxes and import fees.
• I have a really hard time deciding between Artesiana's "Virginia" Schooner model kit, Amati's Viking longboat and Amati's Endeavour 1:80 kit with tools - I really like how detailed Artesiana's instruction booklet is and that you can download it even before the purchase to check it out. On the other hand, for the Viking longboat I would not need to paint much (because that is another rabbit hole, right?) and the 1:80 Endeavour kit comes with a few tools and seems to have multiple build logs here, which would alleviate the not-so-great instructions it comes with.
• In general, what is the smallest scale where a model allows to have enough details to look like a model and not a toy with reasonable effort? All of those three are in different scales.
• For the time being I can't afford to have a dedicated building space, any tips / tools / contraptions that allow to safely move models under construction between the storage and the building space?

Sorry that this post is quite long. Thank you for your time & help in advance!

[Bob Cleek]

Hi Turel! Welcome to MSW! I'm not going to try to answer all your questions because, while they definitely "show you are thinking," they require answers which could fill a book and, indeed, many books about how to model ships have been written over the years. Rather than listing some of these books, which I expect other forum members might address, I'll simply urge you to start reading the posts in this forum. If you try to read them all, you'll never get to starting to build a model, so just skim the subjects and use the forum search engine to focus on particular subjects. 

 

For openers, speaking of reading the forum posts, I suggest you contact one of the administrators and see if they think your post might better attract attention and responses as a stand-alone post, rather than being tagged onto this long "classic" thread, which is full of great information but getting "a bit long in the tooth."

 

What follows are some quick answers to which I'm sure others can add further detail, or even other opinions!

 

 

 

 

Edited October 20, 2023 by Bob Cleek

[mtaylor]

Welcome to MSW, Turel.  You might want to give some thought to doing an introduction  here:  https://modelshipworld.com/forum/3-new-member-introductions/

 

Also, we have a large area for tools discussion.   Here: https://modelshipworld.com/forum/18-modeling-tools-and-workshop-equipment/

 

It should be said that some tools such as the Loom-A-Line are more trouble than they are worth.   Biggest recommendation is to buy only what you need, when you need  it and buy the "best" you cam afford (not the most expensive or flashiest advertised ones).  

[Bob Cleek]

10 hours ago, Turil said:

Any modelling tool manufacturers you can recommend or any that I should avoid? Unfortunately I don't have any of my previous tools anymore and am starting from scratch.

Read the forum section on tools and see the reviews and comments. Also check out the build logs of kits you are interested in and see what tools those builders have found they need to do a good job. The trick of buying tools is to only buy a tool when you need it and then only buy the best tool you can possibly afford. While compromises are always necessary in that respect, the most expensive tool is the one you have to buy more than once because you had to replace the first one. Modeling tool "kits" promising to provide a selection of "everything you need' are almost always a poor choice since they seek to impress the uninitiated buyer with a large selection of low-quality tools that will be found useless in many instances. Only buy what you need, not what some marketer needs to sell you! 

 

Yes on both counts as to your question about pro and con manufacturers recommendations, but the lists are long and international shipping costs often preclude foreign sources. Generally speaking, modeling tool retailers directing their marketing to hobbyists are, in my opinion, often not the best source of tools for ship modeling because the hobbyist customer is looking for a low price and usually doesn't know the difference between a high and a low quality tool, or care. The hobby catalogs tend to offer over-priced lower-quality tools, often Chinese knock-offs, when the same tools, almost always from an alternate non-hobbyist source, are of higher quality and lower price more often than not. Comparison-shop your local medical and dental, professional jewelers' and watchmakers', luthiers' and electronic assembly tool supply houses. Frequently, you will find used and even new acceptable quality medical and dental instruments for sale at huge savings on online auction sites like eBay, but beware of cheap knock-off items on eBay, as you are probably already aware. You will be able to find most of the tools you would ever need for ship modeling from sources other than ship modeling hobby catalogs. The prices for professional tools can sometimes be daunting, but even a mid-range quality professional tool is going to be better than what you can usually expect from a hobby outlet. As you are in Europe, you will find using alternate tool sources will also solve many international shipping issues. (I am sure you can find anything you need from EU marketers and the EU modelers in here can fill you in on them.)

 

10 hours ago, Turil said:

Apart from the obvious tools, what kind of useful helpers would you recommend? I noticed for example on Amati's website things like the loom-a-line rigging jig. Is that handy to have or wasted money? Or this hull support contraption from Artesania Latina. The reason I'm asking is that I'd prefer to purchase these things together with the first model kit, even when I don't need them right away, instead of having to pay for the shipping twice. I live in Austria and most shipping costs are quite high, which brings me to my next question:

Any answer will have to be specific to the particular tool you are considering.. That said, a large number of the sort of  tools marketed specifically for ship modeling such as those you mentioned are next to useless. The infamous "Loom-a-line" rigging jig is perhaps the most egregious example of this. Don't waste your money on that one. (And don't ask me how I know this, either!  ) There are many "hull support contraptions" on the market. This is a "better mousetrap" situation and there is always somebody coming up with another "you must have this" version. Take your time before spending money on any of them. Some are better for one sort of hull than for another. Some are useless for any purpose. Some are pretty good. All can be replaced by something you build yourself to suit yourself. There are many reviews and plans on this forum for hull holding jigs. Most "store bought" ones are in my opinion grossly overpriced for what they are. I understand that there are economies of scale to be enjoyed by shipping larger orders, but don't end up spending more than you save on shipping by buying things you don't need.  Read the "Articles Database" topics in the MSW drop-down menu at the top of the forum home page for excellent advice on tools and materials and similar topics. See: https://thenrg.org/resource/articles

 

10 hours ago, Turil said:

Can anyone recommend an European reseller of the "Model Shipways Lowell Grand Banks Dory" kit? Modelexpo-online would ship it to Austria, for 75,- USD shipping. Ouch! And that is before taxes and import fees.

I can't, but somebody else probably can. You can access the instructions for many of the kit models online and learn quite a bit from those without having to buy the entire kit and then decide which kit best meets your needs. The Model Shipways Shipwright series you mention is an an excellent choice, but I don't know if they are marketed in Europe. I'd be surprised if they aren't.

 

10 hours ago, Turil said:

I have a really hard time deciding between Artesiana's "Virginia" Schooner model kit, Amati's Viking longboat and Amati's Endeavour 1:80 kit with tools - I really like how detailed Artesiana's instruction booklet is and that you can download it even before the purchase to check it out. On the other hand, for the Viking longboat I would not need to paint much (because that is another rabbit hole, right?) and the 1:80 Endeavour kit comes with a few tools and seems to have multiple build logs here, which would alleviate the not-so-great instructions it comes with.

Read the "build logs" on this forum for any kit model you are considering. There is a forum database with reviews of just about every kit that has ever been sold. You can also then contact the forum members who have built those models before you using the forum messaging feature and ask them any questions you have. You will find that some kits are highly regarded and others are reviled by those who have bought and tried to build them. I think the most important feature of any kit is its instructions. If the instructions are poor, the kit is probably not worth spending any money on it. I wouldn't advise rationalizing away obvious shortcomings in any kit. "Denial ain't just a river in Egypt" and there are far too many excellent kits available to settle for one that you know is going to present you with problems before you even open the box! (Also, be sure to read the MSW forum section of "pirated" counterfeit kits before you buy any kit!)

 

One final consideration that shouldn't be overlooked in selecting a model kit is to be sure the manufacturer will provide replacement parts if necessary. It is quite possible that parts may be missing from the kit (it does happen when there are a lot of parts in a kit) or that you will accidentally ruin a part or one disappears when it when it jumps from your benchtop into to the "black hole" below. Some kit companies are very good about this, some even providing a duplicate part at no charge, while others won't have parts in stock or even reply to your requests. The latter are best avoided entirely.

 

See: 

 

 

Don't be intimidated by painting a model. It's not rocket science and "there's no free lunch." In fact, it is much more demanding to build a model finished "bright," (showing the wood grain.) In that case, your woodworking must be perfect because you will not be able to correct mistakes and imperfections in your woodworking with putty and fillers that you can cover with paint and you are still going to have to apply a clear finish to your unpainted model anyway. (And don't be impressed with kits that promise to include "everything you need to build" including paint. It's not unusual for a kit to sit on a shelf for so long before it sells that the "paint included" has dried up in the bottle by the time you open the box! You can easily buy fresh paint for a ship model when you need it from any local hobby, craft, or hardware store.

 

10 hours ago, Turil said:

In general, what is the smallest scale where a model allows to have enough details to look like a model and not a toy with reasonable effort? All of those three are in different scales.

That is a function of the modeler's skill (and eyesight!)  Skilled "miniature" ship modelers can produce amazing detail at very small scales. On the other hand, beginning modelers often are challenged to satisfy themselves working in quite large scales. However, the level of detail acceptable, as opposed to possible, is fairly standard. At a scale of 1:48 (1/4"=1') any detail six inches or larger on the full-sized prototype should be included. The minimum size of depicted details changes in proportion to the scale. A "half-inch scale" model (1:24 1/2"=1') should depict all details larger than three inches on the full-size prototype. If you go below these minimum limits, the model starts to lose its ability to convey a "compelling impression of reality" and begins to look like a toy, as many describe it. More detail than that correspondingly improves a model's ability to convey a "compelling impression of reality." Beyond exactly replicating a detail and instead tricking the viewer's eyes to "see" details that aren't fully portrayed is the point at which modeling transcends craftsmanship and enters the realm of art, but that's a story for another night!

 

The one caveat is that the level of detail, as described, must be consistent throughout the model. Many beginning modelers fail in this respect because they focus on some small details at the expense of others. For example, one will often see models which depict all the trunnels ("tree nail" peg fasteners) in a planked deck or topsides at a scale diameter of perhaps two inches when the actual diameter of the full-scale trunnel on the prototype is three-quarters of an inch. Another commonly seen error is when a kit manufacturer provides copper sheathing that meticulously depicts "rivet heads" on the plates which at prototype size would be two or three inches in diameter, when copper sheathing is actually applied with quarter inch flat-headed copper tacks which are invisible at "scale viewing distance." Such unfortunate missteps are also often compounded by simultaneously omitting other larger details from the model entirely! "Scale viewing distance" is an important concept for modelers to grasp early on. This refers to "what a viewer sees from whatever distance they are viewing it." For example, if you are viewing a quarter inch scale model (1:48) from a distance of two feet between the model and your eyes, the model should look exactly like what you would see looking at the real ship from a distance of ninety-six feet. (1x48x2ft=96ft) Correspondingly, if you are looking at a 1/8" model (1:96) from a distance of two feet, the model should look like what you would see looking at the real ship from a distance of one hundred and ninety-two feet. (1x96x2ft=192ft)

 

Also, when picking a kit to buy, be aware that many kits will, to one degree or another, provide parts which are out-of-scale or historically inaccurate. You will frequently find blocks, deadeyes, and rigging line that are too large for the scale, or just too crudely made, and other cast fittings that are out-of-scale or not of a type used on such period vessels. Even quality model kits will often provide blocks, deadeyes and rigging line that are of such crude detail quality that you won't want to use them. Given that the model kit is otherwise a good one, you should expect to purchase after-market fittings as needed, such as blocks, deadeyes, and rigging line if you really want your completed model "to look like the picture of the one on the box." (For an examples of such aftermarket sources see: https://syrenshipmodelcompany.com/boxwood-rigging-blocks.php and https://ropesofscale.com/) The same goes for the wood provided in all but the top-end kits. (See post #49 of this thread above for photos of the high-quality modeling wood provided by Syren Ship Models in their top-end Medway Long Boat kit.) The best modeling wood is expensive. It should not show a lot of out-of-scale grain figuring to detract from the "compelling impression of reality." Many modelers decide to replace the kit-provided wood with higher quality wood where such will not be painted. Such wood, milled to sizes for ship modeling, can also be obtained from aftermarket suppliers. (See: https://hobbymill.eu/) This latter issue often causes more experienced modelers to buy the tools necessary to mill their own wood, which more often than not inevitably causes them to "go over to the dark side" of scratch-building and abandon kit-building entirely.  The cost of a suitable micro- table saw to do this is considerable, but if one is a scratch-builder, the savings realized by scratch-building one or two models over buying one or two advanced level kits will easily pay for the tools required to mill their higher quality modeling wood themselves. (See: https://byrnesmodelmachines.com/tablesaw5.html) Similarly, many modelers eventually determine that significant savings can be realized by spinning their own scale rope. (See:  https://syrenshipmodelcompany.com/ropewalk.php) (All the vendors linked above are MSW-vetted and endorsed sponsors and their links are found on the right-hand side of the forum home page.)

 

10 hours ago, Turil said:

For the time being I can't afford to have a dedicated building space, any tips / tools / contraptions that allow to safely move models under construction between the storage and the building space?

There are many modelers who build great models on their kitchen table. You are only limited by the extent of your creativity. Some of us have garage or basement workshops, but many make do just as well with a surprisingly small space as a permanent workshop. (Some even convert a mere clothes closet into a workshop!) The permanent workshop is to be favored, of course, since you avoid the inconvenience of setting up and taking it all down each time you want to work on it, but it is entirely possible to work around space limitations if you have a shelf or other safe place to put your model between working sessions so it is out of the way and not inadvertently damaged. If you read a few books on ship modeling technique, you will find that most address the workspace issue in some detail and frequently will have plans and diagrams for building self-contained portable cases for storing tools and materials and providing a working surface. Offhand, one book that treats small workspaces in great detail is the late famous English master modeler, Gerald Wingrove's The Techniques of Ship Modeling, a very comprehensive work on the subject. Used copies are readily available on the online used book market for quite reasonable prices and it is also available on the Internet Archive (free sign-up, no cost for access) in PDF  format at https://archive.org/details/techniquesofship0000wing/mode/2up 

 

I built my first wooden ship model kit, a tugboat, on my home desk, storing the model in progress and materials in the box the model kit came in and my tools in a small plastic utility toolbox. Some modelers get quite creative in designing rolling work chests that close up to become quite nice pieces of custom furniture that conceal their true function. Below is a very fancy fly tying "workshop" of that style. If you weren't of a mind to build a piece of fine furniture to store your boatbuilding gear, a suitably sized mechanic's tool chest would be more than adequate. These can be expensive, but the lower-priced ones will suffice for ship modeling tools because the expensive ones are designed to hold the considerable weight of the tools a professional mechanic requires, while all you would be needing it for are ship modeling tools and materials that are far less heavy and don't need a chest built like a main battle tank. 

 

https://www.pinterest.at/pin/750201250397570802/

 

A standard machinist's roller cabinet and top chest combination unit would provide room for modeling tools and materials and the enclosed bottom compartment would probably accommodate the average smaller sized kit model for storage.

 

 

Edited October 21, 2023 by Bob Cleek

[davyboy]

Hi Turil,

 

Cornwall model boats sell Model Shipways kits. They appear to have a good selection on their website,and also have a very large selection of Ship/Boat modelling items and tools . I have been buying items from them for years,they have excellent and fast service. My last order took only 5 days from ordering to arriving in my Briefkasten in Switzerland. Postal cost is about 20% of what the American post charges. Please dont waste your money on items like you have underlined. Welcome on board to MSW.

 

Dave 

[Keith Black]

Turil, welcome to MSW. Glad to have you aboard. 

[Knocklouder]

[Pitan]

Hello Turil, welcome to the forum, from another new member.

p.s. I'm aware of several suppliers that offer Model Shipways kits - looking in the UK, google Model Shipways dory uk.
Use other countries for your own searches.
 

Edited October 25, 2023 by Pitan

[Jim Lad]

Hello Turil, and a warm welcome to MSW from 'Down Under'.

 

John