HMS Pickle Caldercraft

[franzschmidb]

this is my first posting after long 8 years, I hope I am writing it in the right forum.

 

trying to start building HMS Pickle schooner from Jotika (former Caldercraft), I was quite unsatisfied with the plans they deliver with the kit.

They say it was constructed by Admiralty plans. But the archives at Royal Maritime Museum Greenwich seemingly do not have any plans of HMS Pickle, especially not in 18th century.

 

There have been interesting build logs of HMS Pickle in this forum by "flyer", "Blue Ensign".

"flyer" has noted the ships size on the kit plans is too short. He suggested Caldercraft used the "Laura 1806" plan. He shows the plan of Laura 1806 from the RMM. But this ship has much sharper lines and only 6 gunports instead of 7 as shown by Caldercraft. The real Pickle must have been about 73 ft long, the model plan shows a deck length of at the most 70 ft.

 

Browsing through all the plans of schooners and cutters of similar sizes shown on the internet site of RMM, I found the plan of "Barbara 1804/6". 12 schooners, the "Adonis Class" were constructed by this plan. 

Comparing it with the Caldercraft kit plan, it looks very much like that was the plan they used for construction. The similarity was surprising, the gun deck length is around 70 ft.

I shall try to enclose the Barbara plan at the end of this post. The quality is quite poor, it must have had some water damage.

 

Contacting Jotika/ Caldercraft with a long letter asking, yes begging them for the source of their plan was fruitless. No reply.

 

Maybe I shall just build it as a "schooner early 19th century", name it Barbara or Lady Hammond or any other name of the Adonis class. Naming it Pickle seems to be too far from reality.

 

I hope somebody can help me with this little problem.

[allanyed]

It appears she was built as the merchant ship Sting in Bermuda then converted to replace the tender, Pickle about 1800.  Unless lines were taken when she was brought to England, there may be no existing plans.   I agree with you that it might be better to purchase a set of plans from RMG for similar sizes sloops, especially the Lady Hammond which is also a Bermudan sloop and probably built of cedar as was Pickle.

Allan 

[bruce d]

4 hours ago, franzschmidb said:

Maybe I shall just build it as a "schooner early 19th century", name it Barbara or Lady Hammond or any other name of the Adonis class. Naming it Pickle seems to be too far from reality.

 

2 hours ago, allanyed said:

Unless lines were taken when she was brought to England, there may be no existing plans.   

I can jump in here with the results of a LOT of digging a few years ago: Pickle never had her lines taken off.  All models are 'best guesses' and Adonis is my 'best guess' as to the source of the Caldercraft kit.

The good news is that there is a very well researched book that untangles the confusion arising from there being two craft of the same name on the books at the same time and gives a good account of Pickle and her captain, Lt. Lapenotiere.  I tried and failed to find fault with his research and conclusions (me failing to find fault is uncommon... sigh.)

HMS Pickle: The Swiftest Ship in Nelson's Trafalgar Fleet  by Peter Hore, published by The History Press. 

 

[franzschmidb]

thank you, allanyed, thank you Bruce D. for your quick response.

 

I guess I might as well build the little schooner and give it one of the names of the Adonis class. Normally I like the ships of the 18th century, but this kit is made by plans of later schooners, most likely Adonis class, I am afraid.

In that case, the inside of the bulwark stanchions and some deck fittings cannot be in red, maybe they should be straw yellow.

Sad, but I see no other satisfying solution.

[OllieS]

On the Jotika website there is some information on the research for Pickle which suggests a longer gundeck for the plans used which are closer to the (presumably accurate) Pickle length of 73 feet rather than what has already been mentioned above: Pickle

How that relates to the kit and plans you have...?

Book looks great and a bargain so on my shelf soon.

[franzschmidb]

dear Ollie S,

I have read the comments of Jotika. But the question is: which plan of a bermuda schooner did they use? I could not find a schooner with 72 ft in the plans of the Royal Maritime Museum, especially not in 18th century.

Franz

[flyer]

Hallo Franz

Your Barbara plan seems to me a really valuable discovery. Building her with the Pickle kit seems an excellent idea. If you like you could still name her Pickle and be probably closer to the real boat as Caldercraft or me.

By the way - I didn't suggest that Calcercraft was using the Adonis class plans but that I would use them to overwork their Pickle.

You could further consider a contemporary painting by Robert Dodd which probably depicts Pickle in the foreground on the right. There you see a vertically stepped foremast.

https://www.meisterdrucke.ie/fine-art-prints/Robert-Dodd/99918/The-Defeat-of-the-Combined-Forces-of-France-and-Spain-at-the-Battle-of-Trafalgar-in-1805-(colour-engraving).html

Looking forward to your build log!

Herzliche Grüsse

Peter

[bruce d]

2 hours ago, flyer said:

You could further consider a contemporary painting by Robert Dodd which probably depicts Pickle in the foreground on the right. There you see a vertically stepped foremast.

https://www.meisterdrucke.ie/fine-art-prints/Robert-Dodd/99918/The-Defeat-of-the-Combined-Forces-of-France-and-Spain-at-the-Battle-of-Trafalgar-in-1805-(colour-engraving).html

Looking forward to your build log!

Herzliche Grüsse

Peter

This painting is the best source for correct information about the appearance of Pickle.  Dodd painted the battle with the guidance of Lt Lapenotiere who was in command of Pickle at the battle.  

[franzschmidb]

hello Peter,

thank you for giving me confidence to build this little schooner. 

I have looked at your Bellerophone post.

Looks great, but very ambitious. I would love to build one of the „wooden walls“, but am afraid it is just too much for me.

After scratch building a boxwood plank on frame model of Boudriots La Salamandre which took me nine years I have decided to build only small ships, just for fun.

best regards

Franz

 

 

[Roger Pellett]

You are a victim of Kit Manufacturer Marketing- using using drawings of a vessel unknown to the public or inventing plans from scratch and then marketing the kit as building a famous ship.  Howard Chapelle covers Bermuda built Schooners in several of his books.  In particular there is a lovely three masted Schooner from the very early 1800’s  named Flying Fish.  This vessel was probably built on the Chesapeake Bay or in the Caribbean.  Bought by the Royal Navy, her lines were recorded and used to build several duplicates in Bermuda. She would make an interesting and handsome model.

 

Roger

[franzschmidb]

hello Roger,

 

thank you for the hint to Flying Fish. That is indeed a very beautiful ship, the lines show a fast sailing vessel, as far as I can see.

In the meantime I have acquired a kit of Brig Flirt 1782 made by Vanguard Models. Most likely I will build this well documented little Brig instead of the dubious Jotika kit of schooner "Pickle". All I can say about this: a pickle is always crooked.

Maybe I can find a ship modeller that wants to continue building Caldercrafts "Pickle". I have just set up a few of the frames, the rest of the kit is as it came. I do not think I want to fool around with the kit from Jotika anymore.

 

regards

Franz

[ccoyle]

1 hour ago, franzschmidb said:

Maybe I can find a ship modeller that wants to continue building Caldercrafts "Pickle". I have just set up a few of the frames, the rest of the kit is as it came. I do not think I want to fool around with the kit from Jotika anymore.

 

Why not just build it and call it a 19th-century dispatch boat?