New members - be aware!

[James H]

I have had to remove permissions from TWO new members here who have been using our forum to circumvent our rules.

 

These posts have been made in here and the forum tech area, each selling items. 

 

REMEMBER: Please don't buy from anyone who has no provenance here at MSW. 25 posts are required to sell anything here, and these two members, SueMac and L Pecore have attempted to pass our system and sell to our membership. We have now put them on post moderation and disabled their messengers. PLEASE do not deal with these members. 

 

Admin

[Bob Cleek]

I am unaware of and have no interest in the particulars of the above-referenced transgressions, but I do wish to address a related matter concerning the "twenty-five post sales rule" which you explain has occasioned this post. 

 

It is not uncommon for the heirs of both MSW members and "outlaw modelers" (to use a biker term) to join MSW for the purpose of posting an inquiry regarding how they should best dispose of the ship modeling effects of their recently deceased ship modeling relative. By the same token, it is likely that most of the MSW membership, particularly those "of a certain age," with varying levels of intensity are concerned about the disposition of our ship models, research library, and shop tools and materials once we "shuffle off this mortal coil." It is one thing to have subjected most of our "dearly beloveds" to the outrages imposed by cohabiting with a ship modeler's equipage during our lifetimes, but to leave it for them to dispose of prudently after we are gone seems particularly unkind.

 

The models built by a late ship modeler may be of some sentimental value to his heirs, though never to the degree the modeler imagined as the models were being built.  Other parts of a late ship modeler's detritus, however, may be of considerable value monetarily, although of limited marketability only to a relatively small niche group of ship modeling hobbyists. It is difficult to know what happens to a deceased modeler's shop tools and materials when the modeler's estate is distributed. Maybe some "big stuff" is sold at an estate or "garage" sale, or the heirs simply distribute it in kind, but it's not generally encountered thereafter in any form identifiable as belonging to a modeler. On the other hand, we do see large numbers of unbuilt kits and research library books which apparently seem to find their way to "pickers" and "flippers" in the resale market. The used book wholesalers buy up for below market value that which they know they can sell for a high premium on eBay and similar sites. Regrettably, from a modeler's perspective, financial advantage is taken both of the modelers' heirs who receive much less than the full value of what was left to them at one end of the transaction and advantage taken of the ship modelers who must purchase these used research volumes at often-inflated online auction prices at the other end.   It is in this fashion large ship modeling research libraries that have taken the previous owner decades to acquire, often at very substantial expense, are bought cheaply, broken up, and the books sold piecemeal because the trade considers this the most profitable way to move merchandise. (And no disrespect is directed to used book dealers who are some of my favorite tradespeople, but if "middleman markups" can be avoided, so be it.) For the reasons previously mentioned, we'll never know the cost to the hobby of breaking up deceased ship modelers' workshops, but surely, the economics of the used tool market is no different than the used book market: "buy cheap and sell dear."  Neither will we ever know how many cords of prized modeling wood stock have been used for firewood by those who knew not what they did! 

 

Although it is true that some ship modelers' modeling effects are distributed through the auspices of their local ship modeling club, in the "information age" the reality is that local clubs are fewer and farther between than they once were and the likelihood that a club is sufficiently large to provide a viable "customer base" for the marketing of a modeler's estate is not as great as it may have once been. For these reasons, it's not at all uncommon that a deceased ship modeler's heirs or estate administrator has no idea what to do with "his ship modeling stuff."

 

Often, when ship modeler's estate liquidation inquiries come MSW's way, they are in the form of a first post by a new member. This is to be expected because anyone who doesn't know what to do with a ship modeler's models, books, and tools and materials isn't likely to be a ship modeler themselves at all and so not a previous MSW member. And, of course, this is where they run into the "twenty-five post sales rule" that often terminates any further exchanges with them beyond a polite suggestion to try to donate the models to a local library or yacht club or sell it all on eBay.  While the "twenty-five post sales rule" serves the sound purpose of preventing unwanted (and possibly untrustworthy) commercial vendors from advertising on MSW without paying sponsorship advertising charges and limiting the use of the "Buying and Selling" forum section to genuine forum participants, in the case of ship modelers' estate sales, it operates to the disadvantage of the MSW membership and the heirs of serious ship modelers because it causes the estate to pay more to sell the property and ship modelers more to buy it. 

 

I propose that the Administrators consider making an exception to the "twenty-five post sales rule" in the case of deceased ship modelers' estate sales. This exception would, on a case-by-case basis, waive the rule in the case of a deceased modeler's heir, heirs, or estate agent, who wishes to offer for disposition to the MSW membership ship modeling related items from a deceased modeler's estate.  Additionally, I propose that MSW could establish a policy that MSW members could dependably advise their future heirs that their models, books, tools, and materials could be disposed of through such an MSW "Buy and Sell" "Estate Sale Provision" if they wished, thereby providing the membership with a valuable benefit to assist their survivors in disposing of their modeling detritus fairly and at a reasonable return when they "join the Choir Invisible" and providing their heirs with the benefit of disposing of their modeling gear without having to pay the sales commissions charged by sites such as eBay.  It might even be arranged that a local MSW member might make themselves available to personally inventory the deceased modeler's modeling things and advise a deceased modeler's heir or estate representative regarding their sale. Surely, making such forum resources available to our heirs and estate administrators would provide peace of mind to many of us who hope that their modeling hobby will not continue to be as cursed by our "significant others" after we are gone as it may be now while we're still here!  It would also provide MSW with the additional competitive edge in the "internet membership sweepstakes" as a tangible membership benefit that cannot be underestimated.

 

Some may express concern that to the extent MSW enables the sale of used modeling items, it negatively impacts the interests of its ship modeling retailer sponsors. While it may be true in theory that if someone buys an unbuilt ship model kit second hand from a ship modeler's widow, that's one ship model kit that isn't going to be sold by a ship model kit retailer. However, some retailer already sold it once, so it is not in any way unfair to the retailers if their previously purchased products are resold on the second-hand market. In fact, in the instance of hobby products, it's to the retailers' benefit that their unbuilt models are resold because they can then expect to sell other products to that same modeler, who often may be just coming into the hobby, and who will be a customer for years to come.   

 

Anyway, that's just my two cents' worth and I suppose advice is worth what you pay for it. I'd just hate to see some other ship modeling forum think of the same thing and beat MSW to it.

 

 

 

 

[James H]

8 hours ago, Bob Cleek said:

I propose that the Administrators consider making an exception to the "twenty-five post sales rule" in the case of deceased ship modelers' estate sales. This exception would, on a case-by-case basis, waive the rule in the case of a deceased modeler's heir, heirs, or estate agent, who wishes to offer for disposition to the MSW membership ship modeling related items from a deceased modeler's estate.

 

Ok....an 'administrator' replies.

 

How would you know that person is selling on items that have been bequeathed or are as a result of someone's demise? Anyone can join MSW to pretend to sell items that are part of an estate, and then take you for a ride......but hey, we allowed it 'in this instance'. That could also pertain to someone who just wants to sell their stuff, so makes a post saying it's part of an estate. You get stiffed, but hey, we allowed it 'in this instance'. 

 

You would be surprised the number of guitar gear groups I am a part of where a party is selling stuff because it's part of an estate, or a lady is selling because her 'husband cheated on her'. 

 

Anyone with an actual estate who can give us provenance, are welcome to contact admin, with a view to posting but we simply do not allow folk to come here and knowingly circumvent our system by posting in a forum area which isn't tied into the 25 post rule. 

 

New folk signing up here also click to say they abide by the site rules, which are there for them to read. It's a requirement of membership here.

 

We have a responsibility to ensure that our membership isn't made open to vulnerabilities that can occur by being a part of an online community. While we can't negate risk fully, we will always do what we can to reduce that risk as far as we can go. 

 

 

[allanyed]

Two valid points IMHO, but as the admins have what is sometimes a thankless job, like herding cats, adding to their load may not be such a good idea.   When it is my time I will post my library if I can.  If not, is there any rule that says my admiral or sons cannot post here if they log in on my member ID with what is going on and what is up for sale?  I looked but cannot find any rule to the contrary.

Allan

[SueMac]

On 11/3/2023 at 3:16 AM, Bob Cleek said:

I'm seconding everything everybody else said, and adding that the library is worth a fair chunk of change. It isn't just the individual books, some of which are worth over a hundred bucks each on the used market today, but also the quality of the books. There's practically no "junk" in that selection. Most importantly, to my way of thinking, the library as a whole should be worth more than the sum of its parts because your father had excellent taste in good ship modeling reference books and he was obviously at it for a good long while. As mentioned, some (if not most) are "out of print." It would take somebody half a lifetime to collect a subject-matter library of that quality. Many of the volumes were relatively limited editions, printed once for a small market of ship modeling wonks like us. Many of them are books that guys would snatch up in a hot minute for a good amount of money because they know there's no telling when another guy with a library like that is going to pass on and his books hit the used book sellers.  You might take a hard look at advertising it on this forum first as a complete whole and then, if that doesn't bring a buyer, sell them piecemeal here as well. It's very, very rarely that as fine a selection of reference works as yours is available in one lot and all you need is one person with the money to buy them all at once to get the job done. 

 

My condolences on the loss of your father. Every so often I run into someone in your position, and I always hesitate to ask about what else might be available from the estate. Usually, I don't mention it, and I have some stories to tell that would make grown men cry to show for it. However, since you've brought it up yourself, let me enquire if you have your father's ship modeling tools for sale, as well. I'm not asking for myself, as I am well-equipped, but I know there are many modelers on MSW that would love to be able to purchase some good used modeling tools. New tools are expensive and I know there are a lot of guys here whose skills are developing faster than their "spare change" is and who would probably love to have the opportunity to pick up some good used tools. I can tell from his work that he must have had the same taste in tools as he did in books! 

 

 

[SueMac]

With all due respect, I did not become a new member to “intentionally circumvent”  your rules of selling as you accuse me of. If you read my original post, I was seeking advice as to what to do with my Dad’s beautiful models and extensive book collection. I posted the list of books because it was so impressive and I knew only members of a group like this could appreciate it and due to the number of books on nautical history and ship modeling , I felt that this group would have the best advice on what to do with them. I received excellent advice from your members. Also, a few members reached out to me to ask if I would sell specific volumes as apparently they were hard to come by.  I did not see any harm in that. It made me happy to see books go to someone who could appreciate them.  When it came to my attention of the “25” post rule, I posted a link to ebay so I wouldn’t “break” the rules. I apologize if you think that I broke the rules, but that was my intention. If I had enough knowledge on ship model building to make 25 posts , then I would probably keep the collection and continue with my Dad’s  legacy of building model ships. An FYI, my Dad was an active member and contributor of Ship Model World and Nautical Research Guild for years. 

[SueMac]

* correction to typo of above*
 

I apologize if you think that I broke the rules, but that was NOT my intention. If I had enough knowledge on ship model building to make 25 posts , then I would probably keep the collection and continue with my Dad’s  legacy of building model ships. An FYI, my Dad was an active member and contributor of Ship ModelWorld and Nautical Research Guild for years. 

[James H]

5 minutes ago, SueMac said:

With all due respect, I did not become a new member to “intentionally circumvent”  your rules of selling as you accuse me of. If you read my original post, I was seeking advice as to what to do with my Dad’s beautiful models and extensive book collection. I posted the list of books because it was so impressive and I knew only members of a group like this could appreciate it and due to the number of books on nautical history and ship modeling , I felt that this group would have the best advice on what to do with them. I received excellent advice from your members. Also, a few members reached out to me to ask if I would sell specific volumes as apparently they were hard to come by.  I did not see any harm in that. It made me happy to see books go to someone who could appreciate them.  When it came to my attention of the “25” post rule, I posted a link to ebay so I wouldn’t “break” the rules. I apologize if you think that I broke the rules, but that was my intention. If I had enough knowledge on ship model building to make 25 posts , then I would probably keep the collection and continue with my Dad’s  legacy of building model ships. An FYI, my Dad was an active member and contributor of Ship Model World and Nautical Research Guild for years. 

 

Here was your first post. Sorry, I don't see anything there that you have just posted in your reply here:

 

 

 

 

Can you see why, as an organisation, we have to be careful and not just let new members start to post about goods for sale? Surely you can?

[SueMac]

I can understand to a point.  I asked for advice on “WHERE” to “ donate or sell” the models, books and tools. As a non-ship model builder, I was at a complete loss. Is there a rule against asking for this advice? 

Also, before calling me out on a public forum and falsely accusing me of “intentionally circumventing “ your rules, it would have been more appropriate had you contacted me and I could have explained what took place so you would have the facts before publicly making accusations. I am sure you are busy as an administrator, but not everyone out there is a scammer, some just want advice. 

[Michel Bénard]

Hello,

I corresponded with SueMac, he gave me the impression of being honest.

Michel

[James H]

I'm not getting into a public slanging match for enforcing our rules.

 

You do have fair reason to sell here, now you have furnished us with more information and not having staff here play guessing games as to whether something is legitimate or not. If I had to make the same decision again, I would, every time. Please let this be a lesson learned to those who wish to do the same. 

 

• Maybe contact a staff member
• If this is on behalf of a deceased member, please let us know which member
• When registering an account on MSW, you have to state you understand the rules we have here. To plead ignorance after the fact, isn't an excuse.

Topic locked.

 

 

[Chuck]

I was busy today and missed this thread but I will add that early on our members were actually scammed on MSW.   This happened exactly how one would expect.  Someone pretended to have lost a relative (father) and had their stuff from 30 years of ship modeling to sell.   He listed them all and took PayPal payments and nobody received anything.  Thousands of dollars worth of tools and kits and books.  It was a complete and total scam.   By the time we suspected and found out...the email was disconnected along with the paypal address.  Photos of the stuff were pasted from the web etc. This is what prompted our rule about 25 posts (originally 50) and for folks who sell stuff to be vetted or be members in good standing.  But yes it is always buyer beware.  It is too easy to get scammed these days.  It usually happens around the holidays too!!

 

So please...damned if we do and damned if we dont.   I would rather have folks here be mad at us for protecting them rather than screaming at us after they were scammed here out of not so insignificant $$$....It is for our community protection.  

 

We have always had exceptions.  Most folks contact either me or Kurt and we make it so they can create a topic here.   We must have missed this one and they never contacted us directly.   But usually we know these guys who passed away and even their relatives.   So we vet them ahead of time and endorse them when they finally make a post about the stuff.   If you dont see that, please be aware its all your risk.  But if you dont see such an endorsement...please bring these topics and posts to our attention so we can do our due diligence and make sure it is legit.