Ships tiller

[garyshipwright]

Have a question for the good members of the form which I can't seem to find a answer for. In 1780 or at least that time frame how was the end of the tiller locked to the rudder and what time frame did this start. To give what info I have, I have checked Peter Goodwin's book, Sailing man of war, which on page 136, talks about the tiller locating plate but doesn't give a time frame for when it may of come in to use. You don't really see this on models or plans but EdT in his log shows the same set up as shown in the AOS Diana when he attaches the tiller to the rudder to lock the two together. The Pandora of 1779 also show the same set up on page 71 item 20/21. True Pandora should answer my question but I have some doubts of things in them. I also checked the French 74 gun ship by Boudriot and on page 132 vol 2 they show a iron U shape plate fastened to the aft end of the tiller where it fits into the slot, and this plate protrudes forward enough to leave room for a ring to be welded on either side. They show a pin passing through the plate and the rudder head and forelocked to lock the tiller to the rudder. . Now were my question comes in is due to the contracts I have and after reading them it seems to point to the way the French did it, which is why am looking for a time frame or maybe some of the members have a contract that tells us about the tiller locked that EdT shows in his build log. The contract's say that the tiller is to have a strap of iron around the after end, of sufficient length, let into the wood and bolted with bolts afore the rudder head and to have a hoop and eye on the fore end for the rope. The strap of iron seems to be much like the French and nothing like what Goodwin mention's in his book. Any one have more info on this. I like the way Pandora and Diana shows it but looking for a answer to this one. Thanks in advance for the help guy' and gal's.

Gary

Edited September 15, 2013 by garyshipwright

[dafi]

Hello Gary,

 

is it this corner you are looking at? ATOS Victory; McKay

 

 

 

DAniel

[garyshipwright]

Hi Daniel. Yes sir that is the same set up in the Diana and Pandora. Any time frame on it when it may of come in to use? Thanks Daniel. Gary

[druxey]

Careful of taking any AOS book as gospel truth, Gary! I don't doubt that the arrangement shown was used but, as you ask, how early did this come into use? My suspicion is that it was closer to 1800 than 1760.

[garyshipwright]

 

Thanks druxey. When it comes to the AOS books am very careful with the information and try to back them up with some sort of primary research. There is one difference or missing item between the contracts and the French ship and that is the bolt that went through the rudder head and the iron strap, locking the two together on French ships. The English contract doesn't say any thing about this bolt so to me, this strap was more for strengthen the end of the rudder head, then to lock the two together. So going back to my question, how was they locked together during this time. Anyone have any ideals?

 

Gary

[druxey]

Would they need locking together, in fact? The tiller engages the sweep with the gooseneck. Wouldn't that, and the tensioning tackle, prevent the tiller from moving forward and disengaging from the mortise in the rudder?

[mtaylor]

I'm wondering if there wasn't some "common practice" used...such as a staple in  theexposed end of the tiller, much like what holds the hammer head on the handle.  Or maybe a treenail through the rudder head?   

 

I could also see "nothing" as Druxey mentions.   Seems that if the rudder became unshipped or damage occured to the tiller, you'd want a fast way to repair or  a way to at least minimize damage.  Not pinning or locking would allow that.

[garyshipwright]

Thanks druxey and Mark. Good point guys and maybe they didn't but to look at the other side, why did they come up with the locking collar and bolt as shown in Lavery's book Arming and fitting, on page 21. Lavery says that it was a method of rigging the tiller ropes 1790 and mention the spectacle frame near the after end. Says the drawing is based on plans in Rees Naval Architecture of 1819. It does make sense about the goose neck locking the tiller and rudder together which just might explain why nothing is mention about this. Thanks again guys.

 

Gary

[druxey]

Reading in Steel's tables, it looks as if (1805) there were two methods of retaining the tiller at the time. One was with eyebolts driven into both sides of the tiller two feet forward of the rudderhead and two eyebolts in the 'fore part of the rudderhead'. Presumably tackle was rigged each side between these. The other method was as described above. Apparently the tiller could become loose with shrinkage over time, according to Steel. Also a norman and chocks were to be provided, but it does not describe how these were used! 

I don't know whether this is helpful or simply provides more confusion to the discussion....

[garyshipwright]

Hi druxey. No sir no confusion at all and makes a lot of sense. Much easier to replace the tiller if broken and will probably be the way I do Alfred's. Thank you. Using tackle to hold it in place verse the long bolts.

Gary

[allanyed]

When searching for drawings of the Euryalus 1803, I found a drawing of an iron tiller that replaced her earlier tiller in 1821.  It is secured to the rudder with a wedge and lashings to eye bolts in the rudder.  I do not know if this method was used with wooden tillers, but suspect not.  The iron tiller did not have a gooseneck that would have kept the tiller from unshipping from the rudder as Druxey mentions above so the wedge may have been only used with this later style tiller.

Allan

[druxey]

However, the placement of the eyebolts is as Steel describes and I picture a lashing on each side instead of the later chain links shown here.

[allanyed]

Sorry Druxey, my sketch leaves something to be desired.  Those were supposed to be lashings, not chain links. 

Allan 

[druxey]

Ooops! Got it, Allan.