Unusual Fitting on 'Herzogin Cecilie'

[Jim Lad]

Does anyone know the specific purpose of the deck fitting (arrowed) at the fore end of the poop on 'Herzogin Cecilie' (built 1902)?

 

There are identical fittings port and starboard and were still there when the ship was wrecked in 1936. They are obviously fairleads of some sort, but I can't think of what their specific purpose would be. Thier position gives a clear run right along the poop deck, but the run forward is interrupted by the well deck boat skids, which can be seen at lower right.

 

This section of the ship was severely damaged by a donkey boiler explosion in 1935, but they were important enough to be re-fitted, as is evident by their being on the ship the following year when she met her end.

 

I'll fit them on the model as they were obviously there, but I'm intrigued by their possible use.

 

John 

 

[Keith Black]

 

  Jim, the Tennessee also had fairleads at the fore edge of the poop. Tennessee's mizzen was located on the main deck so I don't think it had anything to do with rigging lines. It could very well be a case where the fairleads were placed at the edge of the poop as insurance in case a haul line was needed on the upper deck?  

 

[Jim Lad]

Great photo, Keith! Yes, I was thinking it could be useful if running a long length of rope to another part of the ship to avoid it getting caught on extraneous fitting around the break of the poop, but ship owners didn't usually go to the expense of adding fittings 'just in case they were needed'.

 

John

[BANYAN]

Hi John and Keith, those were my immediate thoughts also - a fairlead for guiding/controlling lines led from forward.  Did she have a capstan aft?  One of the issues we had when losing power to the main capstan was raising the anchor by hand.  We usually reverted to the tried and tested three-fold cable/deck tackles, but when possible tried to utilise other winches (such as boat /hawser winches) to assist such tasks.  These required a long unobstructed lead, so having fairleads would be beneficial?  In reverse, the lead may be used to lead a messenger to the capstan from aft for bringing in a tow rope or the like?  Just brainstorming here  

 

cheers

 

Pat

Edited September 17 by BANYAN

[Jim Lad]

Pat, the trick on the 'Duchess' is that she had such a long poop and the lead forward was obstructed by the boat skids and boats. She had a large capstan on the forecastle ( mainly for anchor work) and smaller capstans on the well deck and poop. If you were leading lines from the stern it's such a a long way forward to those fairleads with basically nothing forward of them, and if you're leading lines from the bow you have the 'brick wall' of the skids and boats.

 

John

[realworkingsailor]

I had a quick look at your first post regarding the “duchess” and you mentioned she was involved in the grain trade. Early grain unloading legs used drag lines to move the grain from around the cargo hold towards the end of the leg. It’s possible that the fairlead in question was for running a drag line off one of the ship’s own winches.

 

An example of the operation can be seen here: https://www.buffalohistorygazette.net/p/buffalo-grain-scoopers-photo-tribute.html?m=1

 

Andy

[Jim Lad]

A good thought, Andy, but she carried bagged grain, and these fairleads were fitted back when she was built as a cadet ship.

 

John

[Morgan]

We have had a similar enquiry previously, several Trafalgar artists depict Victory with proto-fairleads at the break of the Poop. Unfortunately we arrived at no answer then, but what we can now perhaps say is that their function was military if the above was fitted when a cadet ship and not later as a merchantman.

 

I’d love to see this solved.

 

Below is an extract from Turners Trafalgar from the Victory’s Mizzenmast.

 

Gary

 

 

Edited September 17 by Morgan

[wefalck]

These were actually merchant navy 'cadets', not naval ones. At that time the thought was that future merchant steamer officers still should get 'proper' training on a sailing ship.

 

Fairleads are there to keep a rope in place, rather than to change severely its direction, for which blocks should be used. I am not too familiar with the deck layout of these ships, but it may be that the cadets were kept occupied with hand-work, while normally at that time winches were used. So you may need a lot of cadets pulling on ropes and you may need to deploy them at various places due to the limited deck spaces. Thus you may need to lead the rope in question from one place to another. Just a wild guess.

 

[Jim Lad]

A good thought, Wefalck.  What puzzles me a little is that the fore end of the poop was severely damaged in the donkey boiler explosion in 1935, so these fairleads must have been replaced after that; which means that they must have had an important role in the working of the ship.

 

I will be fitting them, as the photos of the wreck show them still in place, but I'd just love to know exactly what their purpose was.

 

John

 

John

[wefalck]

John, I have posted your query including the first photograph in our German forum: https://forum.arbeitskreis-historischer-schiffbau.de/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=2660.

 

There we have a number of knowledgeable people on these fourmasted barques. There is one guy who worked on the restauration of the PEKING after her return to Hamburg from the New York Southstreet Seaport Museum and another guys works on a large-scale model of the PETSCHILI.

 

I have looked for potentially useful photographs of the PASSAT and the PEKING in order to see, whether they have the same fairleads on the central bridge, but couldn't find any close-up picture (yet).

 

Let's see, whether there is a response on the German forum ...

[Jim Lad]

Thanks very much for that, Wefalck. I've also approached my contact at Mariehamn and he's also having a look for me.

 

I could just make a pair of fairleads and fit them "because they're there", but I'd really like to know their purpose.

 

John

[dafi]

As this feature is also shown in drawings of the Victory as mentioned above, I had a closer look at the possible purposes. There are many ropes on the mizzen mast but little space. In case of "overpopulation the lines could possibly be handled fom the quarterdeck, as I know from personal experience that the gaff peak and fall need larger crews to get hoisted, leaving little space on the poop for all the other lines and duties.

 

Just a thought but logical to me. The fair lead would keep the rope in place and avoids scarfing an the edge of the higher deck. To be operated properly this would possibly also needs a pulley on the lower sitting deck to get the rope in a suitable workable height.

 

XXXDAn

Edited September 23 by dafi

[Veszett Roka]

At this exact position, PAMIR had a clamp to hold the cargo cranes boom secured during voyages. A bit differently installed, but PASSAT still have those clamps, however the crane boom has already been removed - the crane itself is the white mushroom far left on the picture. When i was on PEKING, she hadn't even cranes installed, but that was prior her restoration, based on the pictures that cranes still missing. Pic below is from PASSAT, note that the handrails have removable sections there. Also note that those fittings are looking aft, but same clamps was installed for the forward crane booms too - i wasn't able to find pictures for that part.

However this is not proving that the fitting on Herzogin Cecilie has the same purpose. This one looks like a fairlead and the handrail is the same all along.

 

 

Edited September 23 by Veszett Roka

[Jim Lad]

Thanks for the input, Dafi and Veszett.

 

The 'Duchess' has an extremely long poop stretching to between the fore and main masts. There's no clutter around there at all.

 

Good thought on cargo derrick crutches, but the 'Duchess' didn't sport such fittings.

 

The search continues!

 

John

 

[grimey]

This photo may help. It is from Tall Ships on Puget Sound: The Marine Photographs of Wilhelm Hester.

These fairleads are commonly found at the break of the poop and forecastle decks - but is the only photo I've found that shows it in use.  

This photo is from The Tall Ships Pass and gives more detail and it  appears to be a roller fairlead

 

[wefalck]

A roller-fairlead would make indeed a lot of sense, when the purpose is to extend the space for working certain ropes by numerous men.

 

The cable on the first picture looks a bit too thick though for being comfortably being pulled by hand. It looks more like a mooring cable or something like that.

Edited September 24 by wefalck

[realworkingsailor]

2 hours ago, grimey said:

 

 

 

 

I think the capstans in the well deck give a major clue! I’m just thinking it may be the fairleads are there to direct the inboard end of a mooring rope towards a central winch or capstan. After tensioning, the mooring rope would be stoppered up and made fast to a bit on the poop or fo’c’sle, adjacent to where it comes inboard. It would also come into use when warping (shifting) the ship along side the dock, using those same capstans.

 

Andy

 

[Jim Lad]

Thanks again for your input, gentlemen, but I think we may have forgotten the layout of the deck of this ship.

 

Below is a sketch plan of the deck of the 'Duchess' from 'The Tall Ships Pass'.

 

The fairleads are at the break of the poop, marked by the black arrow.  There are capstans positioned along the deck marked by the red arrows and there is a steam cargo winch with warping drums extended out past the hatch coaming marked by the green arrow.

 

I certainly agree that these large fairleads look like they're designed for a large rope, but I can't see them being of use for mooring lines unless the after mooring lines were routinely stowed under the forecastle when at sea, which a possibility, given the long sea passages she regularly undertook.

 

John

 

[Keith Black]

 John, I still don't think there was a designed use for the fairleads. IMHO they were there just in case a line had to be run over the poop edge. I know you said the owners were cheap but what could a fairlead have cost back in the day? If they were penny pinchers they were also conservatives and i'm sure they weighed the cost of a couple of fairleads being there versus the deck damage cost due to them not being there. 

Edited September 24 by Keith Black

[realworkingsailor]

1 hour ago, Jim Lad said:

Thanks again for your input, gentlemen, but I think we may have forgotten the layout of the deck of this ship.

 

Below is a sketch plan of the deck of the 'Duchess' from 'The Tall Ships Pass'.

 

The fairleads are at the break of the poop, marked by the black arrow.  There are capstans positioned along the deck marked by the red arrows and there is a steam cargo winch with warping drums extended out past the hatch coaming marked by the green arrow.

 

I certainly agree that these large fairleads look like they're designed for a large rope, but I can't see them being of use for mooring lines unless the after mooring lines were routinely stowed under the forecastle when at sea, which a possibility, given the long sea passages she regularly undertook.

 

John

 

John, think about the task of warping the ship alongside. The mooring lines would need to be led to either capstans or windlasses to be worked. While your diagram indicates one capstan on the bow, there appears to be two paired amidships and two aft. A forward spring line could be led aft to the midship capstan, while the headline would be worked via the bow capstan. The stern lines would be worked by one aft capstan and the stern springs by the opposite side stern capstan.

 

Andy

[Keith Black]

 Andy

 

  The below is a photo of the USS Tennessee showing the poop deck port side mooring line.  I'm not saying the Herzogin Cecilie was sent up the same way but to haul a mooring line to a capstan at an angle through a fairlead sounds a bit sketchy, IMHO. Once the load was on the line I can envision that fairlead being ripped from the deck. 

[realworkingsailor]

52 minutes ago, Keith Black said:

 Andy

 

  The below is a photo of the USS Tennessee showing the poop deck port side mooring line.  I'm not saying the Herzogin Cecilie was sent up the same way but to haul a mooring line to a capstan at an angle through a fairlead sounds a bit sketchy, IMHO. Once the load was on the line I can envision that fairlead being ripped from the deck. 

You would have to show me which line you are referring to, although I can see the fairlead.

 

Open top fairleads would not be used to redirect lines from an upwards direction, but rather sideways or downwards. On modern ships, we use fairleads all the time to redirect mooring lines, and it’s far from a new concept, as is the practice of shifting a ship alongside a dock.
 

While it doesn’t show in any photo posted in this topic, I’m fairly certain those fairleads are doubtless securely attached to the beams below. 
 

For what it’s worth, all the fairleads are open topped, which means ropes were meant to be passed through and then removed with regular frequency during their use. 
 

All this strongly suggests to me that they were most likely used as I suspect, for directing mooring ropes from ship side fairleads to a favourable run to a more distant capstan.

 

Andy

[Jim Lad]

Andy, don't forget there were also a pair of capstans on the well deck under the boat skids. They would be perfectly placed for heaving the forward springs.

 

John

[Keith Black]

The line I'm speaking of is right of ladder's second most upper rung. 

 

 Andy, I've seen morning lines squeeze the corner dolphin tops on the dock I was standing on till they made the dolphin tops explode.I got peppered with splinters pretty good, luckily I didn't get one in the eye.  Granted it was an extreme case but I can't agree regarding running a mooring line (with load at angle) through a fairlead as a general practice.  

[Jim Lad]

Keith, every ship coming alongside is heaving on mooring lines at an angle through a fairlead of some sort. In extreme conditions, nasty things can happen if you don't take care, but that usually involves the mooring line breaking, with often disastrous results for any nearby crew!

 

John

[Dr PR]

Here are a few thoughts.

1. The fairleads in this position were common, so they were used for something.

2. The open top fairleads/chocks are used when you need to lead a line temporarily and be able to move it quickly.

3. They are above the well deck, so they were probably associated with something there.

4. There are life boats on the well deck of the Cecilie.

5. The deck plan drawing marks "boat skids" port and starboard. Perhaps these were portable skids to allow the boats to be moved. We had essentially the same thing on the cruiser I was on.

6. The boats are positioned under the shrouds. It would be necessary to haul them aft before lifting them over the sides.

7. The lines to move the boats could be lead through the fairleads and back to a capstan.

[Keith Black]

8 hours ago, Jim Lad said:

every ship coming alongside is heaving on mooring lines at an angle through a fairlead of some sort.

John, for the heavier craft I'm familiar with it was bollards and not lightweight fairleads plus the hawsers wouldn't fit though the fairleads pictured. At 3,242 GRT the Herzogin Cecilie was a heavy ship. 

[Jim Lad]

I think perhaps we're going around in circles a bit with the mooring line thought, but I've had another idea - She had to change sails several times each voyage; could the fairlead have been used to help in hauling sails aft from the sail locker under the forecastle?

 

John

[Keith Black]

15 hours ago, Jim Lad said:

to help in hauling sails aft from the sail locker under the forecastle

 Interesting thought, John. And it could have well been used for task. Tennessee's fairlead wouldn't have been used for that task as the mizzen was on the main deck. I kinda feel we're missing the obvious?