Ship's boat for HM Cutter Cheerful and similar ships

[Tossedman]

I'm curious as to what ship's boats would have been carried on a cutter like Cheerful or Surly and where they may have been stowed. Any ideas out there?

 

Cheers,

 

Todd

[Thukydides]

So Cheerful was launched in 1806, so I don’t have a clear answer for you, but here is what W E May recounts (based on Admiralty documents):

 

1779: Cutters and Brigs to have a 4 oared yawl or cutter

1783: Cutters to have two boats instead of one (not clear what the second would be, potentially a yawl and a cutter?)

1815: Cutters to have a 20ft deal cutter. It is also mentioned that new cutters (those of 200 and 193 tonnes) should have a 22ft gig and 16ft cutter.

Edited November 7, 2024 by Thukydides

[iMustBeCrazy]

On 11/6/2024 at 1:58 PM, Tossedman said:

what ship's boats would have been carried on a cutter like Cheerful or Surly and where they may have been stowed.

No clear answer here either. Where they may have been carried is a little easier, on deck along the rail (either side) or over the main hatch or dangling from stern davits or dangling over the side or towed astern.

 

ZAZ6347 shows vague outlines of two boats on Vigilant (1821).

THIS painting shows at least one boat on Vigilants deck.

And THIS painting shows Vigilant with a boat dangling over the side.

 

8 hours ago, Thukydides said:

but here is what W E May recounts

Missed one, 1783: Cutters employed against smugglers to have 20ft boat instead of 18ft boat for the duration of the peace.

 

Given 200 Ton cutters should have a 22ft gig on a 75ft deck I would expect that Cheerful with a 63ft deck may have had an 18ft boat if they were lucky.

 

Todd, I suggest you cut out some paper boat outlines and see what fits.

[Blue Ensign]

Peter Goodwin in his book The Cutter Alert makes reference to Admiralty orders specific to the provision of boats for cutters.

He cites an order of December 1763 that during winter only one small 4 oared boat should be allocated and that it should be carried rather than towed to avoid being lost.

An order of June 1779 mentions 16' boats for cutters, another in July 1783  recommends the addition of a second boat, and in September 1793 an order decreed that cutters employed against smuggling should replace their 18' boat with one of 20'

 

The Cutter Alert book by Peter Goodwin indicates a boat stowed on the centre line but from the plans there is room only for a 13' boat.

 

Cheerful would certainly have carried at least one, probably two, but space onboard is severely restricted. There is not room between the winch and the pumps, and storage of even a modest 14'  four oared boat stored on deck either port or starboard would effectively fill the deck space.

 

The  Model Shipways kit of a 1:48 scale Longboat would be in scale but is far too large for a deck stowed boat, and at 26' is on the large size for a towed boat. 

On Cheerful only a small boat could be carried on deck so it is more than likely a larger one was towed. 

In the Alert book there is a photo of the model of the cutter Hawke carrying a small boat on the starboard side of the deck.

 

For my build I  knocked up a version of a 14' cutter to assess whether I like the look of a boat on the Cheerful deck .

8426

8429

8431

For the purpose of the exercise I used a Caldercraft Resin hull, with added Boxwood fittings.

 

B.E.

07/11/24

 

[Tossedman]

23 hours ago, Thukydides said:

So Cheerful was launched in 1806, so I don’t have a clear answer for you, but here is what W E May recounts (based on Admiralty documents):

1779: Cutters and Brigs to have a 4 oared yawl or cutter

1783: Cutters to have two boats instead of one (not clear what the second would be, potentially a yawl and a cutter?)

1815: Cutters to have a 20ft deal cutter. It is also mentioned that new cutters (those of 200 and 193 tonnes) should have a 22ft gig and 16ft cutter.

Thanks for looking into this @Thukydides and sharing your finds. Apparently I bought that book years ago but its location escapes me at the moment.

 

15 hours ago, iMustBeCrazy said:

No clear answer here either. Where they may have been carried is a little easier, on deck along the rail (either side) or over the main hatch or dangling from stern davits or dangling over the side or towed astern.

ZAZ6347 shows vague outlines of two boats on Vigilant (1821).

THIS painting shows at least one boat on Vigilants deck.

And THIS painting shows Vigilant with a boat dangling over the side.

Missed one, 1783: Cutters employed against smugglers to have 20ft boat instead of 18ft boat for the duration of the peace.

Given 200 Ton cutters should have a 22ft gig on a 75ft deck I would expect that Cheerful with a 63ft deck may have had an 18ft boat if they were lucky.

Todd, I suggest you cut out some paper boat outlines and see what fits.

Great idea about the paper boat outlines @iMustBeCrazy and thanks for the information and links. All great info. I have the plans for Cheerful and am slowly collecting the resources to build it but will have to build a few other models beforehand to get my skill set up to par for such a model. I was just curious about where they might be on such a small ship.

 

15 hours ago, Blue Ensign said:

Peter Goodwin in his book The Cutter Alert makes reference to Admiralty orders specific to the provision of boats for cutters.

He cites an order of December 1763 that during winter only one small 4 oared boat should be allocated and that it should be carried rather than towed to avoid being lost.

An order of June 1779 mentions 16' boats for cutters, another in July 1783  recommends the addition of a second boat, and in September 1793 an order decreed that cutters employed against smuggling should replace their 18' boat with one of 20'

The Cutter Alert book by Peter Goodwin indicates a boat stowed on the centre line but from the plans there is room only for a 13' boat.

Cheerful would certainly have carried at least one, probably two, but space onboard is severely restricted. There is not room between the winch and the pumps, and storage of even a modest 14'  four oared boat stored on deck either port or starboard would effectively fill the deck space.

The  Model Shipways kit of a 1:48 scale Longboat would be in scale but is far too large for a deck stowed boat, and at 26' is on the large size for a towed boat. 

On Cheerful only a small boat could be carried on deck so it is more than likely a larger one was towed. 

In the Alert book there is a photo of the model of the cutter Hawke carrying a small boat on the starboard side of the deck.

 

For my build I  knocked up a version of a 14' cutter to assess whether I like the look of a boat on the Cheerful deck .

For the purpose of the exercise I used a Caldercraft Resin hull, with added Boxwood fittings.

Thanks for the Alert reference and images of your Cheerful @Blue Ensign. It looks fantastic. Really goes to show how crowded the deck of a cutter would have been. Your 14' cutter looks quite large on deck in your images. Ship's boats of 20' or 22" would have really filled these ship's deck.

 

Cheers,

 

Todd

[georgeband]

The log books kept by 'captains' or other officers are a good source of information, though in the UK you have to get to the National Records Office in Kew, photograph them, and then spend many hours trying to understand them. I found two references to boats in Roach's log for the small schooner Whiting: one said 'hoisted in the boat' and the other said 'at 3 hoisted out the boat'. Armed with this information I worked out that the boat would be 12 feet long (any more and it would not fit between masts and hatches) and the only realistic place to put it was on the centre line. Admiralty drawings did not show any davits. 

Another source of information about cutters is the book 'Midshipman Easy' by Marryat. Find it on the web for free. 

 

George

[oakheart]

On 11/7/2024 at 8:27 AM, iMustBeCrazy said:

two boats 

I just found this thread, here  is another painting of a cutter with boats on.

It shows cutter 'Kite'  in action off Beachy Head on the south coast of Britain

by Montague Dawson

 

 

This discussion has made me realise that I may need to revise my thoughts on the size a boat on my build of Speedy.

Tim

[oakheart]

On 11/7/2024 at 8:27 AM, iMustBeCrazy said:

shows at least one boat on Vigilants deck.

Nice find craig  @iMustBeCrazy , there is so much to find out there and on this site alone.

 

Tim

[oakheart]

On 11/13/2024 at 11:43 AM, georgeband said:

'Midshipman Easy' by Marryat.

thank for reminding me @georgeband I have a copy on my kindle, I must read it.

I got my copy from : -
https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/6629

 

Tim

Edited December 6, 2024 by oakheart

[Jim Lad]

For comparison, a contemporary painting of the Revenue Cutter 'Stag' giving chase off the needles. Note the size of the boat stowed on the starboard side of the deck.

 

John

 

[oakheart]

On 11/7/2024 at 8:27 AM, iMustBeCrazy said:

a boat dangling

OK Craig @iMustBeCrazy you set me off now. I found another cutter painting from 1810 with a boat dangling, this time off the stern.

https://www.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/rmgc-object-12595

The boat looks very small compared to the crew on deck, which suggests  we should probably not take these paintings as accurate, the overall image may be correct in that the artist saw a boat hanging off the stern but did not draw it in proportion.

 

Tim

[iMustBeCrazy]

2 hours ago, oakheart said:

The boat looks very small compared to the crew on deck, which suggests  we should probably not take these paintings as accurate

Yeah, that's a one man boat, two at a pinch.

 

Below is Lapwing/Speedy, close enough to Cheerful. The blue outlines are 16' cutters the green 18', the orange a 20' Gig and the pink a 22' Gig, more or less.

 

At a pinch (and in utter desperation) I think a 16' cutter could carry 10 passengers and 2 oarsmen, in a dead calm for a short distance, or more realistically 6 passengers and 2 oarsmen (or 4 and 4) and is I think the biggest I'd put on stern davits.

For an 18'er, maybe 4 more (10) but you'd need 4 oarsmen (so 10 minus 2) so only a slight gain, a 20' Gig another 4 more (14) and still 4 oars, a 22' Gig another 4 more (18) but 6 oarsmen (so 18 minus 2).

All this assumes a minimum of oarsmen to allow more space for passengers and is just a guess.