Maine three masted schooner by Bedford - Radio - 1:54

[Bedford]

Thanks for the pics Floyd.

It is interesting how you have your sheets set up, you are doubling the pull by way of anchoring the ends of the sheets to the hull. This really shows the torque of the servo.

 

The more I think about it the more I realise I am going to have to have two channels for the sails because I want the stay sails to operate properly. One channel can operate the sails and top sails the same way you do but the stay sails will require a two way pull, ie:- each will have two sheets which will need to be attached to opposite sides of the servo horn. There is a pic of how it works early on, I took it on board the james Craig.

 

Welcome back Robbyn, hope you had a good xmas. Yes the float test was brilliant if quite daunting. It went pretty much as expected though. The two big things panned out for me, no water ingress at all and I know how heavy she can be, it is as simple as she can displace a lot more water than she will weigh therefore she will float. If she weighed more than the water she can displace she would sink. I didn't want her to ride too low in the water because there is not a lot of freeboard so as she heels over in a breeze the deck could end up wet and I want to try and avoid that. The odd bit of water on the deck will be ok but I don't want it in the water constantly.

 

I am off to Sydney for a few days to see dad so no progress other than thinking for that time. I will take the schooner and show him as he is quite interested in it. He has built "Le Hussard" and when I built the "Schooner for Port Jackson" I reduced the plans to fit on an a4 page and faxed them to him jokingly suggesting that should be his next build. Next time I went to sydney he had made it in that size, not bad I thought.

Edited December 26, 2013 by Bedford

[Sailor1234567890]

Keep at her. She's looking great.

[fnkershner]

If I understand your comments correctly you are referring to the need to have your jibs pulled either to the Port or Starboard. I hope I got it right. I did look back thru the log to see your info about sail plan and "learning the Ropes". Here is another example of what I mentioned before about the difference between function and accurate duplication of a real ship. On a real Sail craft of any size you will have sheets for each sail that are run both to starboard and to port. One will be engaged and the other waiting for a tack or jibe. When I was part of a sail racing crew one of my jobs was to be in the pit (cockpit) grinding these sheets. If I was lucky there was another grinder with me. But often it was just me jumping from one side of the boat to the other as we made our roundings. 

 

Anyway back to R/C. Maybe the best way to explain is another set of pictures. You will see in the pictures below that the Jib sheet is run from the fairlead aft of the hatch thru eye bolts to a point that is exactly on the centerline ahead of the mast. From there you will notice that the Jib sheet runs up to the Jib boom and used another brass clip. The reason you only need 1 sheet is that for R/C all you are concerned with is pulling it in or letting it out. Believe me when I tell you that if you have any wind you will not have any trouble getting the sail to fill and swing out going either upwind or down. So all you need is to be able to control how far out the sail is. And if you double the sheets as described above. You can get just the right adjustment between the 2 sails controlled by the same sheet. In other words when the mainsail is tight you will want a bit of play in the corresponding jib. So the jib sheet will be just a bit looser than the main. I am guessing for your schooner rig you will have a set of sheets for each mast. And all but the Mizzen will have a corresponding jib. 

 

In the 2nd pictures notice also that the termination on the Jib boom has a couple of rubber grommets around the boom. This allows me to fine tune the rig for the wind conditions. I can either slide the sheet in or out to tighten down the throw of the Jib. You will also notice that the jib is rigged with an outhaul. This allows me to give the sail more curve or make it flatter. An outhaul is impossible without a Jib boom.

 

I know that you do not intend to race your boat so some of these adjustments are likely unnecessary. Just giving you more food for thought.

 

Finally the position of the Fairlead is carefully chosen to accomplish the same thing on the Mainsail. In your case this may not be possible. So you are likely going to have eyes guiding your sheets either across your deck or under the deck. Some of the racers in our club prefer to have a clean deck. So they do everything I have shown you under the deck. Personally this scares me. What happens when I need to replace my rigging or adjust something.

Edited December 26, 2013 by Floyd Kershner

[JerryTodd]

On RC models you'll find a great many modelers don't want to deal with the mechanics of overlapping jibs; that is having to drag the heads'ls across the forestays.

One manner of dealing with this is the clubbed jib, as shown above.  This may work well for your forestays'l, but the jib is another matter.

 

Some deal with this by raising the clew of the jib so it doesn't actually overlap the forstays'l and passes freely from side to side clear of the stay.  This is sheeted through a ring made-off to the forestay where the clew crosses it and run down to the bowsprit and back to the servo in a way that doesn't interfere with the forestays'l.  The jib then actually sheets to the forestay.

 

Another option that may work for you is a continuous loop type sheet that runs from a winch or shuttle set-up, through the clew of the jib, and back to the other side of the winch/shuttle.  A pair of knots in the sheet on either side of the clew grab the sail and pull it over as the sheet in pulled.  The knots are spaced so they sheet in the sail snug on either tack.  This gives you a jib that overlaps per your sail plan and work better if the sheets go to the bulwarks/rails like the real vessel's instead of the centerline where modeler's tend to put them.

 

There are other ideas for dealing with overlapping jibs, but most require more mechanics to achieve, like two servos, etc.  I've been playing with some ideas for my Pride because I not only have three overlapping heads'ls to contend with, but an overlapping fores'l, running main forestays, and running backstays - and darn little space in the hull to put a lot of mechanisms.

[fnkershner]

Jerry - I would consider you the expert on this subject. You have far more experience than I do in this area. I am satisfied with just my plain old Sloop with 1 mast and 2 sails. As this discussion was progressing I was think of you and hoping you would jump in here. I would be very interested in seeing some pictures of the rig you describe.

[Bedford]

Thanks Jerry, that is food for thought.

 

This is basically what I am going for, I had not considered sliding the sheet as you suggest but it is something to remember. I am really going for the correct method of having two sheets which then run to either side of the hull as you suggest.

 

 

The rest of the sails will most likely be run the way Floyds are.

Edited March 30, 2014 by Bedford

[Bedford]

I have calculated the sail area today, maybe not dead accurate but it would be pretty close to 510125mmsq

 

That is just over 0.51 metres squared or 791 square inches so a bit more sail than you carry from memory Floyd. However my centre of force is much lower than that of a modern yacht style of rig and in stronger winds I can reduce sail.

 

Sails = 495 in sq

Top sails = 144 in sq

Stay sails = 152 in sq

 

So I can run with sails - 495

Sails and top sails -  639

Sails and stay sails -  647

All sails - 791

 

I am no sailor but I would imagine the top sails would be used only in lighter winds, depending on how she handles the wind. They will not be able to be set without the mains up first.

Edited December 27, 2013 by Bedford

[aliluke]

Hi Bedford

Just had a look in here. A very nice ship you are making with precise finishing. On an odd note, my uncle used to make working ship models and used the bath to set the waterline. He would add ballast to the ship, as you did, until he got the settlement just right. He would then sprinkle the bath water with flour and this would leave an exact impression on the hull for the waterline. It's probably a well known trick but your bathtub photos reminded me of Uncle Sid and his amazing working models.

 

Cheers

Alistair

[JerryTodd]

Here's a quick post with overlapping sail sheeting ideas, just tossed together...

 

Any one that sails knows when tacking, simply put, you let fly the lee sheet at helms-a-lee and take in the new lee shet after the heads'ls across the wind/centerline.

Accomplishing that in a model isn't as easy as it sounds.  For one thing, remote set-up don't tend to work well with slack.  Slack lines tend to snag things and there's no one aboard to clear these snags when they occur.  There's also the issue of space in the hull and access for installation, maintenance, and adjustments.  Servo arms long enough to pull the required length won't usually have the room in the hull to do it.  Winches don't have this issue, but have issues all their own - especially with slack.

 

Typical way of handling overlapping sails with a winch from Dan L:

 

A servo arm set-up from the late Jimmy James:

 

A two servo design.  One servo pulls the sheet to port or starboard, the second servo moves the first servo itself to let in or out the sheets, from someone on Model Boat Mayhem forums:

 

My playing with the above idea, but with one servo.  Instead of a servo sliding the other one fore and aft, the servo slides itself via a line to the other side of the arm.

 

The sliding sheet: the sheet slides through the clew until a knot pulls it over the stay.  Sheet doesn't require a lot of tension if used with a servo arm, if with a winch, that's another issue

 

Someone posted this on RCGroups a while back and it looked really promising to me, but...

I've mocked this up on the bench and couldn't get get a pull of much length.  It's also tough to start the arm from center as the servo hasn't as much leverage.

Trying to make this work within the space available in the hull hasn't been successful but I'm convinced something along this line is the answer.

[fnkershner]

Jerry - Do you use a bilge pump? I have not found the need. The small amount of moisture I get usually dries before my next use. And considering we do about a dozen hard races a day. I am pretty confident.

 

On the subject of the Top sails. I would suggest that there are managed the same way my main is. The only difference is that you have a gaff in the middle. i.e. it is treated as if it was one sail with a batten. I can't image a situation where you will not want your topsail to be in line with your main or the lower sail on any of your masts. It also simplifies your rig considerably. You wont need any special lines for your top sails. They are just controlled by the lower sail.

 

Jerry - Tell us more about your R/C controls for your Pride?

[JerryTodd]

Gaff tops'l I, as you say, treat as an extension of the course, treat it all as one sail.  Stays'l that have to cross a stay are another matter.  Most models I've seen don't have stays'ls, and those that do either keep the clews above the stay, and often just don't bother with controlling the sheets, or just sheet them to the centerline and leave them that way..  One idea I gave some thought was a bit of elastic that would raise the clew just over the stay when the sheet was eased, but this too may be more trouble than it's worth.

 

On Pride I'm leaving off the fisherman stays'l because it would interfere with the fors'l far too much and is just too complex to try to handle remotely on that rig.

 

Trained squirrels, BTW, are also not feasible as they tend to gnaw on the model and fill the hold with nuts.

 

More details on Pride's control systems will appear in my MSW build log for her, rather than clutter up Bedford's log.

 

I've never used a bilge pump.  I usually toss a feminine napkin in the bilge to soak up anything that gets in there and leave the hatches open for a while after sailing to let everything dry.  Anything catastrophic a bilge pump wouldn't keep up with anyway.  I also sail in salt water which little pumps don't stand up to for long.

Edited January 11, 2014 by JerryTodd

[Bedford]

That's some good info Jerry, thank you very much.

 

Space is not an issue in this build, the beam about 100mm behind the fore mast is 200mm so I have plenty of room to play.

 

Like you I am thinking that last one looks good but if it doesn't give enough travel what about incorporating the Jimie James idea to some extent. That would increase the pull. A high torque servo should handle the job I would imagine, especially if the Jimie James idea means a shorter arm on the servo.

[Bedford]

As promised, the timber grain is gone.

 

Two coats of primer have been applied. Oh, I have also attached the outer bearings for the prop shafts, drilled the holes in the keel for mounting the sailing keel and mounted the rudder tube.

 

 

 

 

In the close-up of the stern section you can see where the edges of the fibre glass are obvious, it looks worse in the pic, you just can't get rid of that without heaps of resin coats and sanding and that would have been difficult to do in this area without wearing through the edges of the keel etc, besides it is on the bottom so I can live with it.

Edited March 30, 2014 by Bedford

[captainbob]

I think you've got it.  Nice job.

 

Bob

[popeye the sailor]

she looks great!   paint will also aide in losing some of it.......not to worry!   got some great lines there! 

[Jim Lad]

A little filler might help, but if she looks OK to the eye, then that's fine.  Cameras can make our good work look terrible at times.  As Popeye says, the final paint job will also help!

 

John

[Bedford]

More paint

 

 

 

[Shazmira]

WOW Steve, the paint looks great...such a shame to cover over that beautiful planking job, but I understand the necessity.  I can't wait to see the next update!

Happy New Year as well, hope it brings you smooth sailing!

[Jim Lad]

Now that makes her look a lot better!

 

Can't wait to see her with the bottom paint on.

 

John

[popeye the sailor]

paint looks great!!!    no doubt about it! 

[Bedford]

Even more paint!

 

The red is a bit more, well, RED than I expected but we will wait and see what she looks like after it bakes dry for a day or two.

 

I am including a few pics of how I marked the water line on her, I know most of us know how but it may be of help to someone some day and I know I didn't need to mark the waterline on the wooden prop, that was just were I went first so I could measure and confirm my jig was correct.

 

I have marked the waterline at my sailing waterline rather than the fully loaded waterline which would be 6 or 7mm higher, I did this for asthetics and practicality for when I come to final setup.

 

 

 

 

 

[Bedford]

Just rec'd a brass bar I ordered, I see lathe work in my near future. This will become the "through keel" blind nuts the sailing keel will mount to as well as all manner of deck parts from portholes to binnacle potentially.

[captainbob]

The hull and paint are looking good.  Sounds like some lathe/brass fun coming up.

 

Bob

[fnkershner]

Man that is one high tech waterline tool! Must have cost a bunch.

[Bedford]

Floyd, I couldn't have done it without the design team at ryobi, artline and the manufacturer of garden ties who chose a cardboard backing of exactly the right thickness.

[Bedford]

I am no fitter/machinist but I love having a lathe !

 

I have turned the blind nuts that will go through the keel to mount the sailing keel, they will also be used to mount her on display. All I have to do now is get a tap and cut the threads and I can epoxy them in.

 

 

 

 

Since I bent a prop shaft and had to order a full replacement assembly I now have one set left over albeit useless for driving a boat. It is however quite good enough for steering a boat. I have cut the outer tube quite short and epoxied it through the keel and I will use the bent shaft to attach the rudder to after bending it some more. I have two bearings for it but the one that would go inside the boat is too long and would put the tiller above deck so I turned a second outer bearing which will make it all nice and neat.

 

 

In spite of appearances the hole through both bushes is the same, 3mm. Yes you can easily tell which one I made by the finish but re-read the first sentence in this post

Edited January 5, 2014 by Bedford

[Shazmira]

Thanks for the water line marker pics...I did not do well on my longboat, so I will try to do something similar to yours to mark the Syren when the time comes! Paint looks good, and the lathe looks like a fun addition to the shipyard!

[Bedford]

There you go, it was worth posting the waterline marking process!

 

Thanks Robbyn, it is almost ready to be bolted down by the keel and never go upside down again.

 

Yes, the lathe / mill is an excellent addition to any model shipyard, I made the masts on it and now brass fittings, who knows what will come off it next.

 

Steve

[Bedford]

I have tapped the keel nuts and epoxied them in, so as not to waste too much epoxy I made the rudder too and epoxied the rudder post into it and coated the wood in epoxy.

 

I needed to make sure the keel nuts would set square to the keel so I drilled two holes in a piece of timber at the same spacing and organised some wires to suspend that with the boat hanging below, this should ensure they are square.

 

I'm flamin' glad it is a lot cooler than when I did the last lot of epoxy work, the keel nuts fell out when I was trying to screw the bolts into them to hang it so I had to dive in with fingers and got epoxy all over them in the process of refitting them, thankfully I had plenty of time to get it all sorted before the epoxy started going off. Did I mention that I LOVE alcohol ! yes that kind too but I mean the isopropyl alcohol, it makes cleaning up an epoxy drama so easy.

 

I am sipping a very nice scotch at the moment too

The steel shaft goes into the groove machined in the rudder and the right angle section goes into the hole in the groove, should be plain to see I think, I have done this in the past with nitro speed boats so I reckon it should be more than strong enough for a schooner. Not sure if I will bother with false brass hinges as they just mean more holes in the hull.

 

 

 

The brass keel nuts are long enough that they protrude beyond the keel. Two reasons, on display they will be the pedestals it rests on and more importantly, when trying to mount the sailing keel it would be hard to get the screws to line up with the holes when working underneath the hull but I will drill holes in the keel that will accept the nuts so they act as dowells. That should make fitting the keel much easier.

 

 

 

In this pic you can see the braces I fitted between the keel and ribs adjacent to the keel nuts to take any lateral strain the keel imposes during sailing.

 

[captainbob]

Coming along nicely.

 

Bob