USF Essex 1797 by cookster - 1:48 - POB and POF - 1814 Configuration - first scratchbuild

[cookster]

Tim, as far as board ft, I made some guess calculations but it actually came down to what size boards I could find.  The pear blank I bought was 12" wide 2 feet wide by 6 feet long.  If my guesses are right that's enough to frame my essex twice, but that's figuring no waste, so I do think I have enough.  The boxwwod blank I bought should be more than plenty for planking, etc.

 

Oops, I got my width wrong - the board was 24" wide before they ripped it to 12" for shipping.

 

I got my test frame made.  I was going to cut both sides but just decided I didn't need to for this test.  Also I printed my pattern undersize by accident, so I had to shift it making the other side off anyway.  Yes I could've printed another one, but it just wasn't necessary at point I discovered this.

 

First the pattern was glued to the frame.  I used elmers glue sticks which I saw in Ed T's log thinking that glue wasn't strong enough, but if Ed used it, it must work.  Confirmed!  The glue stick works great.

 

The pattern was cut out with a scroll saw.  Then I sanded the convex convex curve with a belt sander.

 

Then I sanded the concave areas with a spindle sander.

 

Done.

 

You can see an area at the top of the bulkhead flat area that isn't sanded smooth, but that doesn't matter since that will be under the gundeck and won't show.

Edited September 30, 2014 by cookster

[Guest Tim I.]

Wes,

 

I have been using Titebond II recently to reduce my dependency on CA glue. It adheres very well, sets up quickly and is easy to clean.

 

Thank you for the estimate on the board feet, it will help for when I begin my project early next year.

 

I look forward to seeing your frames shape up.

 

- Tim

[cookster]

A few pics of the frame half.  

 

I wet the frame to show the joints.

 

Also, the grain in the pear I used is not very good, it's from another piece of pear I had, not the blank I bought.  I expect that pear to look much better.

 

And sitting in the bulkhead.  Now time to do this for real...

[cookster]

Tim, on the glue I use Elmers carpenters glue for all my interior projects.  I've also used titebond on some things since it's water proof, but it dries a little yellow.  Elmers dries clear.  Just a personal preference.

 

The elmers glue sticks I mentioned are for gluing the paper patterns on.  It works great for that.

[Guest Tim I.]

Ah, never used Elmers. I will have to give it a try.

 

- Tim

[cookster]

I got a strip ripped and milled from the pear blank i bought to see how it looks, very nice stuff.  I'm pleased.  Now on to milling many strips...

 

 

[cookster]

Hi folks, I posted a question on the Essex's bow shape here:

http://modelshipworld.com/index.php/topic/8272-usf-essex-bow-shape-1814/

 

I'm puzzled by the drawings of the bow shape shown on William Bakers drawings.  I'm hoping some of the experts here can offer some knowledge.

 

In the mean time, here's a couple 3d renders of the proposed bow area as I think Baker drew it.  The more I look at it I don't think it's right.

 

[cookster]

I had some pictures of my bulkheads in the early stages but I lost them.  I'll take more as I make additional bulkheads.

So instead, here's pics of current process.  Oh, and I'm still drawing...  Sigh....

 

Here's a typical bulkhead in process.

 

These futtock section tops can be cut on the miter saw.  (NOT 90 degrees to the frame as I earlier said!)

 

After cutting both third futtocks tops.  These futtock heads are CUT WRONG!  I cut them 90 degress to the frame which is not right.  I caught this error after I made a few frames and had to start over on those.

 

Here are various sections being glued.  I use these Bessy clamps that I use building furniture.  They clamp parallel to the jaws unlike some other clamps that can shift side to side.

 

Now working on the afjacent floor timber.  I made another pattern for the "even" futtocks.  I started with the floor timber, the pattern was cutout where the floor timber goes.

 

The piece is cut and glued.

 

You can probably see in some of these pics I started using the brass alignment pin method to align the patterns.  This is a tip I picked up from Ed Tosti.  I'll elaborate on this more later.

Edited November 8, 2014 by cookster

[cookster]

I mentioned earlier I lost some pics I had, so I will show one frame from start to finish.  This frame is currently not completeted, so I will show it up to current progress.

It's my frame "20", this is my numbering scheme - not Hacket's.  It's easier for me to design using my own numbering.

 

Here is the pattern.  This is the floor timber and 1st and 3rd  Futtock. Or maybe it's 1st and 3rd Futtock and top timber.  One day I'll figure this out for sure.

 

I cut the pattern so the ply blank can be marked and cutout.

 

The blank was cutout on the miter saw.

 

I cut the rabbets for the pear pieces on the router table.

 

I then drilled the holes for the alignment pins.  Here I'm not using a jig but after several frames were made I did make a jig.  I will show that later when I describe the alignment pins.  I also took this pic after I removed the paper pattern -  I forgot to take it with the pattern still attached.

 

 

[cookster]

Next, another pattern was cutout to start adding the pear.  These pear strips were rabbeted to fit in the rabbets of the ply bulkhead.

 

I first cut the angle to match the pattern.

The other end was marked for length, cut long and glued.

 

The next  piece was cut to match the angle of the first, then glued on. It was also left long although it's difficult to see that here.

 

Next the pear for the other side was cut out per the pattern and glued on.  This side of the frame will be planked,  but to give myself some freedom later I went ahead and added pear here in case I want to leave off some planking, plus it makes it easier to add pear top timbers.

 

After all these pieces -  floor timber and futtocks, were glued.

 

I cut the futtock heads per the pattern on the miter saw.  I made a reference in one of my earlier posts about cutting this angle 90 degrees to frame, that was wrong!  It is instead cut to a specific angle.

 

And here is the floor timber and 1st futtocks cut to length and ready to add the adjacent futtocks.

Edited November 8, 2014 by cookster

[cookster]

Next, another pattern was used for the "even" futtocks and floor timber.

The floor timber section was cutout of the pattern, then pear was cut to match and glued on.

 

After that dried the 2nd futtock was cutout and glued on.  This 2nd futtock is the most dificult piece to cut as it has to be cut to the exact length and both angles, and glued in placed perfectly, for the futtock heads to flow smoothly.  If I make any errors along the way I fear one (or more) of these is where I'll screw up - so I'm trying to be really careful.

 

And here is current progress.  The dado has to be cut back out and the bulkhead bottom trimed up.  I'm working on getting quite a few frames to this point so I can cut them all at once.

 

I hope all this has been easy enough to follow.  Hopefully when I get some frames finished and can show what this is all leading to it will make sense.

Edited November 8, 2014 by cookster

[cookster]

As I've mentioned a few times I'm still working on my drawings.  I haven't shared much of them since they still aren't done, and I'm still a little unsure of my accuracy.  I let USS Frolich Frolick (aka Steve) check out my framing plan and he gave the thumbs up, so that was a confidence builder.  I will say the gun ports fit Baker's dwg exactly, and I spent a lot of time on that so I was relieved when Steve gave the OK.

 

So, here's a bit of that dwg.  I don't show the entire plan because it's still not finished.  Right now I'm about to tackle the cant frames, both front and rear, and am finishing the frame dwgs for the individual full frames.  I'm now building frames and was waiting on adding the 3rd and 4th futtocks until I settled on stepped - or not stepped.  Now I can move forward on that! 

 

After a conversation with Steve I decided to move ahead with stepping the frames on the 3rd and 4th futtocks.  I hope this is accurate, but it should give me the look I'm after. Also, I've settled on my naming convention of the floors and futtocks.  It may not he historically accurate, but only I'll ever know it so it's not worth fretting over.  I'm referring to frame parts as odd/even and front/back.  As long as I keep that straight I'm good.

 

A few items are still undecided.  

1.  Should the gun port sills and lintels follow the shear?  At this point my answer is yes.  I can't see notching the planking to fit the sills and lintels if I run the sills parallel to the keel.

2.  Will the sills be mortised or bird mouthed?  Don't think so.  I *think* birdmouths were and English method, and frankly I hate the thought of cutting them.     I don't think I will mortise them at all.

3.  Pins, treenail, bolts etc.  Ugh....  I can't decide.  I honestly think treenails, for me, are an extra item I don't need.  In real life they would be virtually invisible, and I'm not sure I like the look.  Just my personal preference - you folks that add treenails have my admiration and respect!!  As far as bolts and pins, I want to add them where strength is needed.  Frames to gun port sills for example.  BUT, if I add them in one place I'll have to add them everywhere, and that's a can I may not want to open.  Ed Tosti for example has thousands of pins in his Young America.  No way I can, or would attempt to do that.

 

There's more questions but those will do for now...

 

A couple folks have asked if I would be willing to share my dwgs, and the answer is yes.  But, I need to finish them.  I hate the thought of giving out unfinished or inaccurate work, so bear with me.

 

I've been looking at books again, I was going to invest in the TFFM series after following several build logs of those ships - just to drool over the masters at work - BUT - I think I'm gonna get Ed T's Naiad book.  I've browsed that log and his  Young America so many times it's time to finally buy the book!

 

Thanks for looking in!

 

Pic:

Edited November 12, 2014 by cookster

[cookster]

Time for an update.

One thing I forgot to point out in my frame build process was the small filler I cut and glued into the dado that was cut into the plywood bulkhead.  I need this gap filled in so the future planking would have a good face to glue to.

 

Here's a stack of bulkheads ready for additonal work.

 

Next step in the frame process, once the frame got to this point I trimmed off the excess at the bottom of the bulkhead.  I did this on a table saw.  I had to use a spacer between the ply and the fence since the heads of the futtocks were extended above the ply.

 

Next I cleaned the dado back out using a miter gauge.  (I have an extended miter fence on my miter gauge which makes this possible.)

 

I had to notch the floor timber to clear the ply bulkhead.  I did this with a chisel and razor knife, rather crudely since this joint will be covered up with a few strakes of planking.  Definately not my best joinery work, but it won't show so I can live with it.

[cookster]

Last weekend I finally put these frame in position for the first time.  This was a highly anticipated, but also scary moment to see if my process and methods were going to work.

Here's a few pics.

 

Overall I was pleased - as first.  You can definately tell a ship's hull is trying to emerge. But after some detailed inspection my fears came true, the futtock heads were not fair.  Well actually most were, but not all.  This was of course disappointing.

After much head scratching, fussing, and a few 4 letter words I was thoroughly disgusted to the point I thought of giving up. Wisely I left the shop and decided to approach the problem with a clear head, which for me is difficult.  The urge to solve the problem immediately is tough for me to ignore.

 

Anyway, I went back and checked my drawings, in detail, and discovered a few errors.  This, for me is tough, I hate making mistakes, but we all do anyway.  One of the errors caused most of my problems.  The frame I randomly chose as the pattern for making my pin drilling jig was off.  This was the only frame I found with that error, and Mr Murphy and his law certainly kicked me in the butt with that one when I selected a bad drawing to make a jig.... :angry: :angry:    A couple other frame's futtock head locations were drawn wrong, just a stupid mistake - no excuses for that one.

 

So how to proceed.  Give up?  Start over??  After clearing my head a few days I came back to see what could be done and I found if I shifted the offending frames up slightly most of the futtock heads would become fair.  A few others were a total loss and could not be  used so they will have to be redone.  Several others could be salvaged by removing the even futtock sections, and remaking them.  I can remove those sections with a sharp chisel so that's not too bad.

 

Next post a few corrections and some changes to my process.

Edited November 29, 2014 by cookster

[cookster]

To correct my errors, I remade a couple frames by cutting off all the futtock sections and remaking them.  This allowed me to reuse the plywood bulkhead.  A few others I was able to keep the "odd" futtocks, and only remove the even ones using  a chisel.  I didn't taks pics of any of this rework.

 

I also changed my method for making the frames.

 

The ply bulkhead is cut the same as before.

When adding the odd futtock sections I now start with the first futtock instead of the floor timber.  This allows me to place it per the pattern, but then put the frame on the model and check it for being fair (the top is still left long for trimming later).  This will add time to making each frame, but with the errors I made I'm now paranoid of making additonal  errors blindly without checking first.  If I put the floor timber on first as before I would have to cut the bottom (next to the keel) perfecty, then the top perfectly, and this would be very time consuming and tedious.  By instead putting the first futtok on first I can get it fair, glue it, then add the floor timber (notched for the bulkhead).

 

I will say, I'm pretty confident I would not have 90% of these errors if my pin drilling jig had been accurate from the start.  That error I made caused most of the frame heads to be low.  Some of the other futtock head errors - I'm not exactly sure how they crept in but they did, so from now on I'm going to check everytihing in advance.  I'm in even more awe now of Ed Tosti's ability to make frames from his plans, with no back and forth checking, and have them fit perfeclty.  I tried and just did't succeed....

 

Here's a new frame with the pattern cut for the first futtock.  I place a witness mark on the frame, clamp it with a small clamp and place on the model for checking.

 

I clamp temporay ribbands on to check each futtock head for fair as I make and attach it.  If they need tweaking I move them, then make a new witness mark for alignment when gluing.

 

Hopefully you can see by these pics the futtock heads are in a nice, fair line now.  Well, the front 3 aren't but those are ones I need to remake and I left them in when taking these pics.

 

Once I use this new process on a few more frames and get the errors all repaired, I'll take pics to better document the process.  This has been a rather wordy explanation, pictures should tell the story much better.

 

As usual thanks for the likes and for looking in!

 

[augie]

I can imagine your initial disappointment Wes.  Thank heavens you moved away for a time.  I think we all like to dive right in and get it resolved ASAP.  Looks as if you've got it solved.

[uss frolick]

Keep working the problem, Wes!

 

You are pioneering what future modelers will admiringly call the "Cook Method". Three Cheers:

 

"Huzzah! Huzzah! Huzzah!"

[Guest Tim I.]

Looking great!

 

- Tim

[rafine]

What fun would model building be without a few glitches?  You're doing great work with a novel method. 

 

Bob

[cookster]

Thanks all!

I was really discouraged at first, but thankfully as Augie said I cleared my head before turning her into expensive firewood....

Bob, I think the glitch fairy can leave me alone for awhile now!  I debated even posting my errors, but that would not be "The MSW way".

 

Frolick, hmmm... not sure I need that pressure, but thanks for the kind words!!  If this doesn't work out it'll be "The what not to do method"    IF anyone else ever tries my method (that's scary) they need to know where the pitfalls are and why I did what I did - or didn't do.  However I did not take pics of the rework.  I didn't feel like documenting cutting and chiseling away my goofs.  Maybe I should have, but I didn't.  All I can say about that is use a sharp chisel and take your time.

 

Tim, I haven't forgot about your drawings, I just need to regain confidence in my process before I share.  Plus, there were errors so glad I caught them.

 

I'm back in the shop today so hopefully there will be positive progress to report next update!

 

"Now back to work"

[cookster]

Quick update:

First, had a computer crash last weekend so I've been dealing with that, so no pictures at the moment.

 

I've been trying my hand a debonding the frames I've made that are wrong and my results are mixed at best so far.  This is the first time I've tried this, and from reading other's comments in various logs Isopropyl alcohol seems the way to go for wood glue.  So I picked some up and gave it a try.  The wood did come apart, with some prying and wiggling and cussing on my part, but not easily.  I let some soak for 8 hours and I could barely get it apart and I also broke a few pieces too.  So it didn't seem to be working for me.  After even 8 hours the wood under the joints was not wet, the isopropyl only attacked the glue on the very edges.  I have pieces ranging from 1/2" to over an inch wide so not sure if that makes a difference or not.  Also most of you seem to be using Titebond and I use Elmers Carpenters glue.

 

So I read some more to see what other people are doing and some mentioned acetone.  Figured it couldn't hurt to try, so I got some and proceeded to test.  The results are much better.  An overnight soak is still best, but the joints are much easier to get apart with minimal prying and prodding.  So that's the method I'll use from now on.  Either the Titebond reacts differently to Isopropyl than Elmers, or maybe the pharmacy brand Isopropyl I bought isn't that good?  Either way I found what works so that's what I'm using.

 

Once I get my computer issues sorted out I'll post some more pictures.

Edited December 10, 2014 by cookster

[augie]

The isopropyl should work Wes, although I've never found it to do a quick or neat job.  One thing you might check.  It commonly comes in 3 different concentrations designated by the alcohol concentration (the rest is water).  Most common is 70%.......but you'll also find 50 and 90%.  I use the 90 as you can always add water to cut it.  WalMart sells all three.

 

If I had your debonding and computer problems at the same time I'd wind up in the hospital.  Hang in there!

[dgbot]

The reason I use Elmers is because I repair the damage when I make a mistake when glueing something.  it has it's detractors but it is what I am used to.

Grab some cotton balls and or some gauze and after soaking them with alcohol place them on the joint and then cover with plastic wrap.  After awhile come back and take a look.  The bond should be starting to weaken as the alcohol has not evaporated but stayed with the model.  

David B

[cookster]

Augie, it's the 91% stuff, I made sure.  It's CVS brand (guess I can say that here?), it did occur to me that maybe that brand is watered down some.  At some point I'll probably get a name brand and give that a try.

 

David I'm actually submerging the parts in a large glass dish, so no evaporation problem there.  I even considered that's part of the problem since there's NO evaporation - no air getting to the joints.  Could that effect the chemistry of what's occurring?

 

Anyway, I soaked 2 more frames last night, fully submerged in Acetone, and this morning they popped apart with only mild effort, so Acetone is the way for me.  As long as it works I don't care why!  

 

Now I only have 10 or 12 more frames to soak, pop apart, and remake to correct the errors only I would ever see.   I guess out of 60 once I'm done that's not too bad....

 

Yes, perfectionism is a curse AND a blessing...  Sometimes I wish I'm the guy that can build a Lego model with a handful of pieces left over and not care.              No wait, no I don't, never mind.  

[augie]

No, sorry to disappoint but 91% is 91%.  It's regulated so they don't mess with that.  Keep in mind that the 91% may not have enough water in it for glue removal.  You might actually try cutting it down to about 70% +/-.  But hey, if acetone is working.....go for it!

[cookster]

Hi all, I've been "off the grid" for a few weeks for the holidays.  I have been working on Essex, but just haven't posted since not much has changed visually.  Just a lot of rework, and then some more rework. To quote Dubz, "deconstruction..."  I've been building, and rebuilding the same frames more than I want to admit.  But I am learning and getting better as I go.

 

All of the square frames are started now and her lines are starting to take shape, and are fair, unlike my first try.  Acetone has become my new favorite tool while making these frames.  I *hope* I'm done with that now, time will tell.

 

And since I haven't made enough misery for myself, I'm thinking of making actual cant frames for the bow and stern, just to see if I can do it.  I may regret that choice soon....   I can always fall back on square frames if that's fails miserably. 

 

Anyway here are a few pics.  None of the profiles have been cut yet, and the top timbers (upper futtocks) still need to be added.  The top line you see is just below the gundeck.  But you can start to see her lines if you look hard enough....

 

 

Also, I've had her on her side so long I hadn't seen her right side up until I had to modify my build board.  I set her down right side up and her scale hit me.  That's a 12" steel rule, she's over 8 inches wide at the widest point!   With that much room I should be able to rig some cannons -  if I ever get that far....

 

 

[augie]

That's an impressive amount of work ----- and lumber.  And thanks for the scale shot .... reminds us just how big 1:48 actually is.

[cookster]

Well, I finally got all the floor timbers and lower futtocks done on the starboard side.  Now I can start adding the upper timbers and work on the port side,

 

I also did some rough trimming just to see some shape start.

 

[cookster]

Hopefully in this update you can finally get a glimpse of what I'm trying to do.  I'm now adding the upper timbers, and have done some initial trimming and rough sanding on some of the frames.  Hopefully in these pics you can see a ship's hull starting to emerge, but there's still a long way to go.

 

Here the futtock joints can be seen

 

I'm not adding the upper timbers around and under the gun ports yet, I still have to decide how I'm going to handle those.

 

Thanks again for looking in, I hope you can finally see there's a boat in there trying to get out...

Edited February 1, 2015 by cookster

[dgbot]

I have gone through your log.  This is a different framing system that I have ever seen. If you do not mind I will be in the audience with a pair of binoculars.

David B