HMS Bellerophon 1786 by AON – scale 1:64 – 74-gun 3rd Rate Man of War - Arrogant-Class

[Don9of11]

I like what I see Alan, nice work on the transom area. Your insights and discoveries have been very helpful.

[AON]

Had a busy time the last couple days.

 

Played with the upper transom outer corner some more and have 'flattened' it about as much as I dare.

Seems every other adjustment from there makes things worse somewhere else.

I managed to create a 5 second animation pan viewing the corner and also a PDF of incremental snaps shots automatically generated from the animation and sent it all to my NRG mentor to comment on.

Unfortunately I cannot seem to attach the .avi file here for the forum to view so here is the PDF.

lower transom shaping.pdf

 

 

I also manged (after considerable time ... it ended up being easier than I made it out to be) created a 36" x 60" sheet for my drawings in Solidworks.

I added 2D images from the 3D model at 1:48 and 1: 72 scale to be printed out to scale on Monday so I can better visualize.

 

HMS Bellerophon scales 1_48+72.pdf

 

That will be when I finally get off the fence and decide once and for all on a build scale.

I am / was (?) wanting to build 1:48 but am suddenly coming to realize the massive size this would be.

Possibly 1:72 might be more accommodating.

Edited January 3, 2015 by AON

[lonelius]

I wish Ppddry (http://modelshipworld.com/index.php/topic/1124-hms-pandora-1779-in-3d/#) was still reachable. His pandora hull looks so well designed, could be a really great source of tips if we could ask him how he made it.

[AON]

heard back from my NRG mentor and my stern is not quite right

 

looking at Gils Victory at  http://modelshipworld.com/index.php?/topic/485-hms-victory-by-gil-middleton-jotika-172/#entry8107)

post #15 -  images 7 + 8

They are another two very good references

 

I believe these three lofted sections of my model are possibly wrong but before I jump into making things worse I'll be taking a break

 

[druxey]

Can you run some wireframe lines over the tuck and buttocks? That should show you where the last slight bumps need smoothing. (I was looking at your lower transom shaping pdfs.) It's getting pretty close now.

[AON]

I did run some simulation buttock lines (like planks?) tonight and can see issues much lower and exactly in the area you questioned.

 

I made a separate copy and was playing with it but my eyes need a rest and my mind needs to clear.

 

Calling it quits for tonight

 

Try fresh tomorrow. I think I need to break up the profiles more to get them to follow the right curves.

Many many many more guide lines required (resembling a wire frame)

 

You are much smarter than I look, and I have a ways to go to catch up to my good looks

Edited January 4, 2015 by AON

[Louie da fly]

You're doing amazing work, Alan. I only have AutoCAD LT, and I envy you the ability to work in 3D to work out problems before they arise.

 

(On the other hand, I'm a bit of a dinosaur - I learnt my trade on a drawing board with pencil and ink-bow pens, so I'd probably feel uncomfortable with 3D - I tried it and though it was interesting and obviously had great potential, I felt happier with the old standard.)

 

I'm really looking forward to seeing you putting this one into physical form.

 

Steven

[AON]

Louie

we are then both dinosaurs!

Alan

[AON]

Thank you very much for the link Lonelius.

 

I've checked it out three times now

I should live so long to make it look as easy as that!

 

his post 4 image #2 really shows what I should be striving for

 

I have a gut feeling that I am making this more difficult than it should be, that there is an easier way to complete this, if my skill levels could only miraculously multiply over night.

 

I am using the loft command to see the outside surface of the timber /inside surface of the outer hull shape

It seems this gentleman used the shell command and added thickness for the inner / outer hull.

[lonelius]

http://modelshipworld.com/index.php/topic/1163-learning-how-to-convert-from-2d-plans-to-3d-cad-build/?fromsearch=1

 

You should also check his reply in that topic. Looks so easy and right, but im still unable to get even close to that.

[AON]

I believe I may have it now ...  but I do not feel any smarter

(Thank to my ancestors I've got my good looks to fall back on    )

 

Druxey suggested running plank lines or wire frame

My NRG mentor suggested buttock lines needed to be followed

 

I drew in buttock lines on my frames and then drew in faux plank lines

These showed my loft feature to be bumped out considerably on a couple places

 

I created new 3D profile / guide lines for the pulled in shape and lofted to these

It was still, somehow, not quite right. There were still bumps, albiet smaller ones.

 

I needed to divide the features more and create additional lofts of smaller areas to get it to pull in better.

 

The pink is the old shape and the green lines are the new shape before dividing it up more

Even after having done this all lines needed manual adjustments to blend better

 

Following is what I ended up with.

There are still minor deformations but at model scale and with sanding I believe these blemishes will disappear.

[AON]

BUILD SCALE:  it will not be 1:48 as this will be too large

I will not be able to reach the top of the tallest mast even with my model table lowered completely

 

I printed off three scales on two sheets ($4.25 Canadian per sheet at 36" x 60")

Cut them out and set them on my table so I could best visualize the physical size

Planted my measuring sticks to simulate height over the tallest mast and breadth over the longest yard

 

1:64 will fit nicely on the table and 1:72 is the smallest I dare go.

 

I admit to being intimidated by the smallness of some tiny components at these scales

Scratch building will be a real test of my abilities

I'll need a bigger scrap box.

 

I am going with 1:64

Decision made.

 

I've said it before but it warrants mentioning again

Thank you to everyone that has offered me help to this point, Lord knows I need it.

 

I will be starting on creating my templates

I imagine this will take some months with the amount of time I can put to this hobby every day.

 

Alan

 

 

 

 

[druxey]

Happy drafting!

[mtaylor]

1:64 isn't too bad, Alan.   Some things do get really tiny, real fast, though.

Have some fun and I hope to see some sawdust.

[AON]

1:64 in my mind will not in any way be a small model but, for me, when I hear the name Bellerophon I cannot imagine the injustice of reproducing her image in any shape less than grand.  My former crew and the alumni of #141 RCSCC Bellerophon would understand completely.

 

I pray I am up to the task.

 

Although I have been trying to rush through the modelling and drawing part (honestly I have, if it weren't for the side projects) the building will in no way be a race.

 

Creating saw dust, wood chips, dull edges on knives and chisels..... I can barely wait to be in the middle of it!

 

(I love building as much as demolition)

Edited January 7, 2015 by AON

[AON]

I practiced laying out and 3D modelling a few frames once again (re-learning what I decided I would do some time ago) and realized another mistake / misunderstanding of the contract description and so my final template will look slightly different than my earlier attempts.

 

I will be working on these many, many profiles to make the 3d of the hull, slice it up into the frames, etc and then create the 2D template for each for cutting and building.

 

I completed the Keel, Stem and Stern Post assembly drawing (see attached) and feel I can begin this part of my build.

My drawing has four copies of the same detail.

   - One to remain untouched for reference

   - Two to be cut up for templates

   - and the last one as a spare copy

 

PLAN_Keel + Posts layout.PDF

 

I also made a visit to my son and liberated yet more lathe from his scrap pile as I read on the forum you should have twice as much wood as you calculated to cover cutting loss and scrap.  It is presently laid out flat in the basement acclimatizing.

 

I will be practicing my scarph joinery on scraps and will not attempt it on the good pieces until I get it right.

 

I find I'm feeling a bit excited and very nervous at the moment... first cut jitters I suppose.

Edited January 18, 2015 by AON

[druxey]

Start cutting - it's like diving into the water! Sure, you'll make some mistakes - we all do. That's why we keep scrap boxes in easy reach.

Good luck as you begin, Alan. 

[SJSoane]

Alan

 

I have been working happily at 1:64. The biggest challenge so far in terms of size was the capstans' whelps. But it is possible!

 

Mark

[AON]

Thank you Mark ( I know, I've been following).  1:64 is definitely the smallest scale I dare attempt at this stage.

 

On another note I have been advised my Keelson scarph joints may be located incorrectly.

 

The contract reads that the Keelson shall be constructed of not more than 6 pieces and that the scarf joint is 5'-5" long

It however does not say where they should be located and the Arrogant class ship at 168 feet long (stem post to stern post) is shorter than any references I have for a 74 gun 3rd rate ship of the line that show locations. I am certain the shipwrights didn't need to be told where to put them, but alas, as a Sea Cadet I was a Boatswain (Bos'n) not a Shipwright.

 

It was suggested via PM that the Keelson joints should be half way between the Keel joints (which were shown on the ship plans) and that they should not fall under a Mast Step.

 

I will relocate them per these guidelines and re-post.

Thank you for the help.

Edited January 19, 2015 by AON

[AON]

Relocated the Keelson scarphs after having looked at the plates in Ree's Naval Archetecture and Cyclopaediaie Vol3 (which were the same) of the normal length 74 (180 feet) and a shorter Frigate of 38 guns (154 feet )

 

Dwg attached

revised PLAN_Keel + Posts layout.pdf

[druxey]

Looks much better. I'd eliminate one scarph just aft of the fore mast and move the foremost scarph to just forward of the step. Take a look at some NMM profile plans on their 'Collections' site.

[AON]

Are you suggesting I move the Stemson to Keelson scarph aft?

It was one of the very few shown on the original plan.

 

I understand the shipwright used the plan as a "guide" and followed their good judgment while keeping to the contract.

 

I must admit making that change does look better.

 

seems like a visit to NMM this evening is in order ... followed by a revision to my revision. 

Edited January 20, 2015 by AON

[druxey]

Yes, but just a little. Check out those draughts on the NMM site.

[AON]

After many hours scouring NMM collections, reviewing online books (because nothing I have here helps) and some tutoring, cyber hand holding and a gentle rap (or two) to the back of the head..... I have it.

 

The attached is being printed today and cutting will begin very soon.

 

PLAN_Keel + Posts layout_rev3.pdf

 

I made sure the scarphs were located so each were over a floor timber per the contract specification.

 

I am still working on sketching the frames at each station to be made solid, sliced up into each individual frame, 3D modelled and dropped into drawing sheets to create these templates.

 

This will be posted at some time in the future.

Edited January 26, 2015 by AON

[AON]

I just changed the attachment rev3 to include the outline of the timber locations

the "circles" with a vertical line highlight the locations where the timber thickness and space change

[druxey]

Looks pretty convincing to me! Nicely adjusted. Small point: make sure that the lips of the scarphs in the stem are wider than the rabbet.

[AON]

Thank you Druxey

 

I could not have managed properly on my own

Learn something new with every baby step

 

Printed off the plan this morning $4.30 for a 36 x 60 sheet and it scales perfectly

 

Alan

[AON]

I finished up my modelling table last couple of weekends

  - glued and dowel pinned trim on the edges, planed and sanded the edges

  - primed and finished painted both tops and also the underside of the tilting half only

You will notice it blends in nicely with the workroom walls (I had paint left over)

 

 

Then I worked on marking the tilt top with reference lines for the model build

  - center line

  - station lines

  - fore and aft cant line angles

Debating whether I should mark the frame locations

I chose to draw it rather than lay a print down as this would have been closer to how the actual build would likely have been done (in my mind anyway).

I will spray seal it next weekend so the pencil marks stay clean and unsmudged

Presently it is stored under a sheet of plastic to keep the dust off

 

I also pulled all the nails from my second pile of eastern hemlock lathe I salvaged from my son's home.

I now have at least twice this amount (likely more) to do my model.

 

Although I continue to draw up the frames to make my templates (which a sampling of will be posted down the road) ... it looks like I'll be finally cutting some wood and starting the build tomorrow.... I cut out a few pieces from my printed template of the bow (from the gripe upwards).

I will start by milling down some of the lathe and rubber cementing the templates to it to cut out... just like they did in the 1700's???

 

 

 

 

[druxey]

So...the sawdust commences. Good stuff, Alan.

[EdT]

Very nice work on the drawings, Alan and the table looks terrific.  Although I am no fan of rubber cement, I look forward to the beginning of your construction with great interest.

 

Good luck with the project.

 

Ed