HMS Royal William by KeithW - Euromodel - 1/72

[Greg the peg leg sailor]

G'day Keith

I might be telling you how to lay eggs, but I've been studying your problem with other photos of RW on and net and the log on Euromodel website.

Here's is what I think your problem is.

Transom 54 and 55 is on the wrong angle along with your whale.

Your photo shows a different angle of 54 and 55 to the second photo and your whale is a different angle to the third photo.

I've been looking at many complete RW models on the net, and many of them shows a different angle of the transom and whales compare to yours.

As I said before, I might be showing my ignorance, but I have to mention what I think is your problem.

Cheers

Greg

Edited February 28, 2015 by Greg the peg leg sailor

[Keith_W]

Yes Greg, I have been wondering if I gave the transom a bit too much of an angle, and I checked it against that photo. Trouble is, that photo isn't quite square. There was another photo which I took earlier, from which I made the marking on the transom and the marking was absolutely spot on - see this post: http://modelshipworld.com/index.php/topic/7195-hms-royal-william-by-keithw-euromodel-172/?p=285618I used the marking to locate the position and angle of the transom, checked and rechecked before the glue dried, and the location of the transom piece is faithful to the mark I made.

 

I will probably take another photo, as square as I can make it, to check the angle of the transom piece. I don't really want to imagine getting it wrong, because there is no way to remove the darn thing now without destroying it! It has been solidly glued in place, gaps filled with filler, and nicely faired in! 

[Greg the peg leg sailor]

Hi mate. I hope that I'm wrong. You can check the angle by these 2 photos

[Keith_W]

OK, I have checked the angle of the transom support. I mounted my camera as square as I could, then opened up the image in Photoshop, took the horizontal reading from the keel, then measured the various angles. 

 

 

This is an image I posted earlier, where I measured the angles of the various features of the stern. The correct angle for the transom inclination should be 80.6°. 

 

 

This image was taken from an earlier stage of the build, where I marked the angle of the transom support. At the stage I was not far off - 79.5°

 

 

This image was taken tonight. I measured the angle of transom inclination at 77.2°. 

 

I am off by 3.4°! I have calculated that an error of 3.4°, will cause the features of the stern to be shortened by 2.2mm. 

 

Now, what do I do ... should I rip off the transom support and start again! That would likely involve destroying Part 54, which I had so meticulously crafted. It is glued on with Titebond, which doesn't really dissolve well in Isopropyl. On the other hand, given that I am scratchbuilding most of the features of the stern, I could simply ... build them different. If I shorten each deck with 0.5mm here, 0.5mm there, it should be pretty much un-noticeable. After all, what's 2.2mm. 

 

Decisions, decisions ... 

 

By the way, you should note that even with the correct transom inclination, this does not solve the quarterdeck inclination problem. 

Edited February 28, 2015 by KeithW

[CaptainSteve]

Even though I am not building this kit, I seriously feel your pain, Keith. I went through a similar experience working on the stern galleries on my first build.

In all honesty, I would go with your own suggestion of living with it, and simply "build them different".

 

If you incorporate your changes gradually, and especially given the amount of detail work to come on your ship, then I, for one, would consider that no-one (apart from the 15,000+ people following your build) will ever notice a difference.

But, hey, that's just my opinion.

[Greg the peg leg sailor]

G'day Keith

I noticed that you were working to the wee hours this morning. I'm so sorry. All I can say, do whatever you feel is right. No one will notice...... haveagoodday

Greg

[Greg the peg leg sailor]

G'day Keith

Firstly I feel for you, for the pickle you are in. I've been looking through euromodel log and I realize that part 54 and 55 must incline at the same angle as the quarter deck. Here are my reason:

Photos 1 and 2 shows that the quarter deck is the same angle as 54 and 55.

Photo 3 indicates that you have to save 4.3 mm doing it by that way. If you add 2.2 mm (doing it your way) to 4.3 there is a discrepancy of 6.5mm that has to saved.

I might be wrong in my conclusion, and I hope I am for your sake, but I don't think so.

Cheers

 

Greg

[Keith_W]

Thanks, Greg. Look at the angle of the quarterdeck in my photo - 89.5deg. This is the true angle of the deck, because I clamped it down before taking the picture. Now look at your first screenshot - "a common mistake is to add the stern decks at right angles to Frame 8". There is no way I am going to incline those transom pieces at the same angle as the quarterdeck  

 

In any case, I have decided that I will cut off the quarterdeck when I get to it and reassemble it. 

[Greg the peg leg sailor]

G'day Keith

I'm glad that you have made a decision!

If it seems to you that I was trying to tell you what to do, I'm very sorry. I was only trying to help. As I said earlier, I not building a RW, but one day I would love to.

As I was re-reading the euromodel log, it mentioned that it was a common mistake to run the stern deck at 90°. I understand what they were saying, but not having the model in front of me I've to imagine what he was saying.

I'm sorry to show my ignorance again.

Cheers

Greg

[Keith_W]

That's OK Greg, I appreciate you taking your time to read the I-I and point it out to me ... but I assure you, I have pored over it in detail so many times that I have almost committed it to memory As Pete himself points out, it is a guide and not an instruction manual. There is nothing about this build that can be considered "definitive" - you can't trust the plans (they disagree with each other at times, like this time!), you can't trust the laser cut pieces (they often disagree with the plans), and the interpretive-info is, as Pete says, his interpretation of how to build it. The only thing I CAN trust is that the metal pieces won't fit if I build it wrong, so that is where I am taking reference from. Even then, you can't hang the metal pieces on a part that does not exist yet

 

In any case, I have fixed it. 

 

 

I decided to correct the angle. I shimmed Part 54 (the upper transom piece) by 2mm at the rear, and shaved off 0.5mm from the front. I now have "almost" the correct angle (off by 0.4°). Measuring from the center of Part 54 to the quarterdeck gives 97mm (should be 98mm according to p.27 / Vol 2 the I-I and the Euromodel plans).

 

I can live with an error of 0.4° and 1mm. The angle is 3.5° off compared to Part 55 below it, but only the most anal of ship modellers will notice. 

 

Now that THAT is fixed, I can finally close the book on shaping these transom pieces. Well, not really ... I have to go back downstairs and apply some paint to make that shim invisible

Edited March 1, 2015 by KeithW

[Keith_W]

Time for another update

 

 

I have now attached the quarter deck. Prior to this, I installed supports for the marine walk and rigged the gun carriages that will be inaccessible once the quarterdeck goes on.

 

Euromodel does not supply enough gun carriages for this deck - instead, the guns that will be hidden below the quarterdeck and fo'c'sle are dummy guns mounted on gun blocks. I was not happy with this arrangement, because the blocks can potentially be seen. So I ordered more guns from Euromodel. They arrived incredibly quickly, and I should thank Massimo for including a couple of free gifts with the package. I received some cannonballs, and a few buckets and things. 

 

 

Even with my scratch built capstan, I was not satisfied with its appearance. When I visited the Batavia Museum in Fremantle, I saw that that model had a capstan with a base and locks on it. I thought it looked really good, so I copied that idea. This looks much better than a naked capstan sitting on a deck. 

 

 

My laser marker arrived so I started the treenailing a few days ago. 

 

 

Wait, did I say "laser"? 

 

 

It is a cross-type marker. The horizontal line was taken against the keel, and the vertical line aligned with a set of plans to tell me exactly where the frames are. I can't take credit for this idea - the suggestion to use the laser marker came from Alexey Domanoff: http://modelshipworld.com/index.php?/topic/2430-simple-marking-jig/?p=62049and the idea to use the plans to find the frames came from Banyan. 

 

 

A close up view of the laser marker. This technique can also be used to mark gunports. Pity I did not have this marker when I marked out the gunports, it would have saved me a lot of effort. 

 

 

Faint lines drawn in with pencil ... 

 

 

Treenailing done on starboard side. The treenails were bamboo, pulled through a Byrnes draw plate. 

 

The Byrnes draw plate is really effective, EXCEPT that the largest hole on the drawplate is to small to accept a bamboo skewer! It would be nice if Jim made a larger size drawplate to pull dowels down to smaller sizes for use on his standard drawplate. It became really tedious, shaving a dozen bamboo skewers down to the correct diameter before I could even use the drawplate.

 

Then it dawned on me that I own a Byrnes thickness sander and a Byrnes table saw. I pushed the bamboo skewers through the thickness sander, then cut it in half lengthwise with the table saw. Voila, correctly sized bamboo dowels! 

 

The treenailing on the hull was bamboo, but I decided to go with brass wire on the wales to give a bit of contrast. 

 

 

All sanded down. The effect is REALLY subtle, you can not see any treenails at all if you view the ship from arms length! 

 

 

... but trust me, they are there

Edited March 8, 2015 by KeithW

[GLakie]

I like the laser/bulkhead finder Keith! Your tree-nailing turned out great as well. Nice!

 

Cheers

[Greg the peg leg sailor]

G'day Keith

Outstanding job, but very tedious, on the treenails. Great idea to use your planner on the bamboo, must have saved hour of work.

 

Keep the log coming!

 

Cheers

Greg

[Tuffarts]

Good job on the treenailing, I use 1 mm dowel for treenails, which fit straight into the drawplate as is. But bamboo is no problem to strip down if you mount a blade in a vice and pull the skewer over the blade kinda thing, should be easy to do safely as the blade will be fixed position and you can pull away from it at all times.

 

One Question, is the Smily face on the gun port an added extra.

I don't think they were around until the 1960's when 'T'shirts told you to Smile.

[thomaslambo]

Regarding your comment about the Byrnes draw plate: 

 

I just purchased the Byrnes draw plate and I totally agree that it needs larger holes for bringing down larger diameter material.  I also purchased bamboo skewers and was disappointed I couldn't use the draw plate (I don't have a small planner).  

 

However, with that said, it really is a great tool.

 

Thanks for the detailed build log....the ship is looking great, and I'm sure you'll get the transom issue solved with a little elbow grease   

 

Added this comment - see Pat's post below...thanks much for the advise on how to size down the skewers prior to using the draw plate 

Edited March 10, 2015 by thomaslambo

[yancovitch]

just found this log.....wow ...what an articulate imaculate builder.......i'm just a ''close enough for jazz'' kind of builder so it's quiet exciting to see the right way to do things   congrats! keith

[BANYAN]

Hi guys, WRT the draw plate - simply soak the skewers and split them - all you need is a sharp blade/razor and roughly split them with the blade as if splitting a log (no chopping required )

 

This will give you quartered skewers (or even lesser sized) rough stock to start with.  Has worked for me with the very occasional split that goes wrong - I found soaking them first really helped.

 

cheers

 

Pat

[Keith_W]

Thanks George, Greg, Christian (is that right, Tuffarts?), Victor, and Pat. 

 

Christian, I have it on good authority that Forrest Gump was around to design the smiley in 1719 and not the 1960's as claimed in that revisionist movie! Smiley stays. And I am thinking of putting a "STAY CALM AND KEEP SAILING" poster in the drawing room, right next to a huge portrait of Justin Bieber. That should irritate a few people  

 

Victor, I think that most people consider your RW to be the benchmark to aspire to. For you to come here and say that my humble build is good is generous beyond words. For a start, mine is kit built. Newspapers won't be banging on my door asking to look at my model. And I won't be invited to write an article for Shipwright Journal. And I would be lucky if this log cracks 50 pages, let alone your 200 page thread on that other site. 

 

Pat, thanks once again for the tips! You really are a wealth of information. I should consult you before I do anything. My inexperience with some things leads me to consider solutions which are unnecessarily labour intensive  

[Tallshiptragic]

Very impressive build Keith. Another kit on my wish list! I've only had a quick flick through your build but very impressed so far with your skill and finish.

[rshousha]

Hi Keith, 

 

I don't know if you're ready for those gunport hinges but I am now putting them in work. Do you want me to save you a sheet? 

 

Best Regards, 

 

Rick Shousha

Montreal

www.modellers-workshop.com

[Keith_W]

Rick, I am somewhat confused by your message because you have already sent me a Paypal invoice for the gunport hinges, and I have paid it? 

[*Hans*]

Keith, the laser is a very nice thing!  But what if you put a 9 Volt block on it instead of the 4,5 Volt?  Will it cut your ship in two? 

 

Kidding. Great work you're doing!

[rshousha]

Keith, 

 

Indeed, you are right. I thought there were two Keiths building RW. I guess the coincidence would have been too great. 

 

Cheers,

 

Rick 

[rshousha]

Hi Keith, 

 

Due to popular demand, I modified the hinges a little, adding 1mm to the long ones and .8mm to the short ones. I think they'll fit better. I had to take .5mm off the tails in order to fit that extra mm on the length. I also took some material off the frame itself as I think there was more material there than needed. 

 

I'll put up a picture of the new fret that is in work on the other thread. 

 

Now, all I need is another ten or twenty orders and we can start on the 1/64 version. 

 

Best Regards, 

Rick 

Edited April 16, 2015 by rshousha

[pirozzi]

Hi Keith, 

 

I don't know if you're ready for those gunport hinges but I am now putting them in work. Do you want me to save you a sheet? 

 

Best Regards, 

 

Rick Shousha

Montreal

www.modellers-workshop.com

Hi Rick,

I am also building the Royal William and looking for gun port hinges. Do you have some good ones for a 1/70 or so scale? If so, how much for a 100 gunport ship?

 

Thanks,

Vince P.

[thomaslambo]

Hi Keith,

 

Hope all is well with you and your family....looking forward to seeing your next update    

[Keith_W]

All right, all right. I'll confess. I have been a little lazy. I might think to myself ... "Hmm, I should really be working on this ship". Then a friend calls me up and asks if I am free for golf. "HECK YES!!" and i'm off to golf  

So sorry guys, i'll get back to it. 

[Greg the peg leg sailor]

G'day Keith

"Are you nuts."

[GLakie]

Sometimes it's good to step back for a while, then come back and attack it, refreshed with a new attitude.

[Greg the peg leg sailor]

All right, all right. I'll confess. I have been a little lazy. I might think to myself ... "Hmm, I should really be working on this ship". Then a friend calls me up and asks if I am free for golf. "HECK YES!!" and i'm off to golf  

So sorry guys, i'll get back to it.

 

G'day Keith

How was the game of golf? I assume you imagine the ball were your inlaws, and you bashed the ball all around.