De Zeven Provinciën 1665 by Dražen - Scale 1:45

[Drazen]

Hi Hubac’sHostorian,

Thank you for the kind words. I can only completely agree with you in all you say.

To Herbert… I was talking to him several times. Since he is a very busy person, I ask him for help just when there is no other way to get the information. Still, it is stunning how much he knows and how much has it been discussed on numerous issues about the 7P – by best experts. I am frequently in contact with Ab Hoving (also a great guy with enormous knowledge and great will to help). Without these great guys and some few others, I would not be able to do this model – at least not to come to the historical truth as it is now … and the historical truth is here not known for 100% and will never be known. It reminds me to the Requiem by W.A. Mozart… we were singing the last version before three years in our choir and this last version has two musical sets which have been found in the last years to belong to Mozart’s Requiem (Mozart died when writing his Requiem and the handwritings got partly lost). It is similar with the 7P. Probably, we could research forever and never get the whole truth about how the ship did look like (even not the first version at e.g. 4-days-battle).

But, I am astonished (here the Answer to Jan) that the modern governments are not capable of funding such projects. Still, in the 17^th century, 30 such ships have been built in a record time and have contributed in protecting the Dutch freedom/position. Well maybe this was the reason why it was possible to do it than and today it is not possible. Pity for the Batavia project 7P and pity for all of us wanting to see this part of the history. I myself see certain parallel in M. De Ruyter - H. Nelson and 7 Provincien - Victory. Still, 7P made an even greater job and lasted for so many years where the competitor ships (HMS Prince/HMS James, or the like) were disabled or destroyed in months or in just few years. 7P is really a prominent piece of Dutch history and again – pity to see the project drowning.

Drazen

[Drazen]

Just another question:

Does anybody have the top view on the galleries of 7P. My plans do not show them from above. I will need it soon.

Also the position of ladders on the outer decks is not clear to me. Before some time, I was talking to Cor Emke (he died before two years), and he told me that at that time they were not sure about the ladders.

Any solid info here?

 

Thank you

Drazen

[Hubac's Historian]

Yes, it is sad about the Provincien Project.  I had hoped to bring my family to the Werf for the launching of the ship. 

 

Had it not been for the determination of Willem Voss, neither the Batavia nor the Provincien would ever have seen the light of day.  In my mind, Mr. Voss is a sort of courageous figure like Anders Franzen was for Sweden.

 

To Jan: might you have been someone I was acquainted with, back in '03?  As I recall, the Director of the Werf at that time was a very tall man named Jan, and Willem's son was also named Jan.

[Hubac's Historian]

There was also another volunteer named Jan, who was a specialist with computers.

[Hubac's Historian]

Jan Devries.

[amateur]

There are many Jan's in the Netherlands

I have no connection with the werf, so it wasn't me.

 

Jan

[Hubac's Historian]

As expected, with Jan being the English equivalent of John.  'Never hurts to ask, though.

 

Cheers!

 

- Marc

[Drazen]

Just a question to the experts, since I am still not sure in which direction to go…

 

The BANNER with the writing “DE – 7 - PROVINCIEN”. In my opinion, it may be made by:

A) just painting the banner on the “Wulf” which was a common practice on Dutch ships, or

… in 3D – by carving out of wood.

When I analyse the paintings by van de Velde, there is a shadow, which could mean that the banner was a carved part in 3D made of wood. Still, the shadow may be painted too (theoretically) to simulate the 3D-effect.

I will post here some photos of ARTITEC-model, of the Model in Lelystad 1:10, of van de Velde paintings and from the book by Dik.

What I would ask here is: if there is any evidence pro or contra for one of the both solutions. The models are for me not so relevant, since they can have mistakes too, but more the paintings or historical data.

I am tending more to go for the 3D-carved version. I was analyzing the shadows on the van de Velde paintings and there ere always some. But! For me, the shadow from the gunport lid seems to fall not from the same direction as from the banner. Still, the banner (if in 3D), was a complex form and may drop such “undefined” shadows. The other trigger why I tend for 3D is the visibility of the shadow itself. If I go for painting-solution, the Wulf would be in black or very dark color similar to black (dark blue, brown, … some pale shade of black). Than, it would be not possible to paint any visible shadow on the dark background. Still, the shadows are clearly seen o van de Velde paintings.

 

Please for any serious comments – especially if you know some evidence!

Thanks.

Drazen

[amateur]

Given the paintings (and the large grisaille of the four-day battle) I would go for the 3D-version.

 

What I am not sure about is the lettering on the banderole.

Dik reads:  De 7 Provincien

the Batavia-model reads - as the Tomesen-model : De 7 Provinctye (or Provinctie, I am not sure).

Depends on your interpretation, but the Tomesen-version does look a bit weird to me (never saw this way of writing the Dutch word "province" before)

 

 

Jan

 

[Hubac's Historian]

Hi Drazen,

 

I don’t think that either approach would be wrong, however, specifically as it relates to the Provincien, the VDV shadow lines do seem to suggest a full relief carving.

 

One argument against a relief, that I have encountered on my build, was that if one were to place this sort of banner relief too low on the transom (below the four chase guns, in my example), then the carving might be vulnerable to being sweapt away by a strong following sea.  The validity of that line of reasoning is debatable, however, the position of the Provincien’s banner is up high enough where following seas would not be any more an issue than for any of the other stern carvings.

 

I think a relief carving is the correct approach here.

[Drazen]

@ Jan

The topic of right name-writing…

I have been discussing it several times with Ab Hoving. He says, according to the old Dutch language it should be the “PROVINCIEN” (Dik & Blom suggest it too). Since I do not understand Dutch and especially not the Old-Dutch, I am helpless here. Maybe here in the forum somebody knows somebody knowing somebody knowing the old Dutch language? This may help.

The interesting point is, that Cor Emke and the replica plans have the writing “PROVINCIYE” (please, see heck the drawing below). I found that this may come from one of the paintings by van de Velde (see my photo I posted above) where it looks like such writing. Ab said that he was giving the final corrections on Cor’s drawings at that time, bit this skipped to his eye and is not correct. (Sometimes we do not notice the largest things in front of our nose – this is a known effect.) Well, according to Ab, it shall be “PROVINCIEN”. Some old-Dutch linguists here to support it?

 

@ Marc

How do you mean BELOW the chase guns? It is clearly above and I thing high enough.

 

The one another thing is that hatch for installing the rudder on the Wulf. I am going to set the banner as Herbert Tomesen does and not like Dik did. I think, I have enough place below the hatch.

 

Dražen

[Drazen]

Just another discussion point: The color of the letters “DE – 7 - PROVINCIEN”: Dik suggests GOLD. Both models in Lelystad have some sort of darker blue or black.
Ab Hoving said gold would be OK.

I am just checking if I have overseen something important…

Dražen

[Baker]

4 hours ago, amateur said:

Given the paintings (and the large grisaille of the four-day battle) I would go for the 3D-version.

 

What I am not sure about is the lettering on the banderole.

Dik reads:  De 7 Provincien

the Batavia-model reads - as the Tomesen-model : De 7 Provinctye (or Provinctie, I am not sure).

Depends on your interpretation, but the Tomesen-version does look a bit weird to me (never saw this way of writing the Dutch word "province" before)

 

 

Jan

 

Jan,

 

Maybe provinctye is spelled correctly in "old dutch or old Flamish" (same language but hundreds of different dialects).
What follows now is an explanation in Dutch that is impossible to translate to English for me (sorry). And this is an opinion that is open for discussion.

 

Provinctye spreekt uit als Provinstie (Provinctye speaks out as provinstie)

Wij zeggen nu ook :

vakantie = vakantsie

politie = politsie

Misschien door die oude spelling voegen we nu de letter "s" toe als we deze woorden uitspreken.

De C en de S,  de Y en de i : hebben in sommige woorden dezelfde klank om uit te spreken.

 

So "Provinctye" can be spelled correctly.

 

 

Drazen,

beautiful work !!

 

Ps

my answer is a bit too late

 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 22, 2018 by Backer

[Hubac's Historian]

Sorry for muddling things, Drazen.  When I memtioned a banner “below the chase guns” I am referring to a banner I am considering adding to my own model of Soleil Royal.  This would be a bit of fictitious license, on my part, but it would allow me to incorporate Louis XIV’s slogan “nec pluribus impar” into the build.  Anyway, that is where this conversation about a following sea and carved ornament originate.

 

On the Provincien, there is no debate that this detail is above the chase guns.  Sorry for not being more clear.

Edited February 22, 2018 by Hubac'sHistorian

[amateur]

Hi Backer,

 

Ik know, but still., it is not a spelling you come across often (also not in compsrable words)

especially while provincie en vanantie do have their t and s sound imterchanged,

y was used as alternarive for j, so I do undrstand provinciyen (again not common) but a c followed by t and y I never saw elsewhrer

 

jan

Edited February 22, 2018 by amateur

[amateur]

Did a quick search in google books

there are texts sround 1650 writimg

provintien, provinsien and provincien. Can’t find any other ways of writimg the name

 

Jan

[Baker]

Jan,

Dutch and Flamish can sometimes be complicated languages 

 

Drazen,

“PROVINCIEN” Is an excellent choice.

Edited February 23, 2018 by Backer

[Drazen]

Thank you guys. If no other information comes, I will go for "PROVINCIEN" in a carved (3D) version.

 

Do you have any comment on Gold for the letters like Dik suggests?

 

Dražen

 

[Hubac's Historian]

My operating theory is that gold would have been used sparingly, but for important details like the ship’s name - yes, gold.  The bulk of the rest would have been yellow ochre.

Edited February 22, 2018 by Hubac'sHistorian

[zappto]

Very nice hull structure build, it will be very solid, will you use hand crafting for make all decorations, or some 3d milling machine?

Edited February 23, 2018 by zappto

[Drazen]

I will make it by hand.

I do not know how could I insert the data in the 3D-milling machine. I may need some existing sculptures and make 3D-scan of them. It may be possible to go to Lelystad and ask if I can make such scans on treir carvings (which are definitely nice). Still, the processing of the data, the preparation and the machine itself... this is all completely new to me.

 

For the moment, I am thinking to try by hand-carving.

But, I will think about this as an idea...

 

Dražen

[Drazen]

In the last months, I have been doing several things in parallel: the banner with the ships’ name, the rudder (nearly finished), the machine to turn ropes (finished) and some other small parts. What I did a lot were the tests of the paints to get the best colour. In order to avoid confusion by jumping from one topic to another, I will post here the results of my work when ready or when an important stage has been completed.

Let’s do today the banner…

The carving work on the banner, I finished yesterday. What follows now is painting the banner.

The banner has been carved out of the boxwood. Since the forms of the banner are not 100% equal on all van de Velde paintings, I have decided on the one I liked the most and which still is looking mostly like the original. I was ignoring to a certain extent the banner made in the 1:10 model in Lelystad and tried to go my own logic in some way. What I did different from the 1:10 model, was to give it more 3D – so it looks like a real thin banner and not like a piece of wood. Second, I will probably go more for the pale white banner and not light blue. For the letters, I will probably choose the mid/darker blue, but the last I am still not sure.

Dražen

[Drazen]

On one photo, you will see that the 3D of the banner had been exaggerated. I did it by purpose and later, I smoothed the heights – till it started to look fine to me

Dražen

[Drazen]

The machine I was using for carving was a real dentist’s machine “W&H elcomed 100”, but some things have been done by self-made carving knives (old drill with a holder-pen)

Dražen

[Drazen]

The banner I made separately from the letters. This gives me an opportunity to work more precise and to make the painting work also look better. The letters will be glued on later.

On some photos, one can see the 3D-effect of the banner on the edges

Dražen

[Hubac's Historian]

Spectacular carving, Drazen!  The thinner profile is excellently rendered and your lettering is really superbly done.  I am very impressed with this!

[Ponto]

Spectacular work!!!

 

[Drazen]

Here are the paint tests I have done…

 

I went for the most quality paint available. So, I have bought the oil paints by Old Holland, Schmincke Mussini and Royal Talens Rembrandt. For the gold, I will use the Tamiya enamel paint X-12 (Gold Leaf) since this paint has shown to be of much finer pigment even than Mussini (yellow gold) . For the big canvas-paintings Mussini may have some advantages, but for the fine scale, you will need the finest pigment/crystals possible. Tamiya X-12 is excellent.

 

Still, I must mention, that working with this oil-paints requires a lot of knowledge and experience. It is far more challenging then than working with any other paint I know. Even the metallizing process (chrome, steel, gold, etc.) by Alclad II is a simple game compared to the oil paints. The critical issues are: priming, thickness of layers, progressive increasing of oil-content/thickness of the layers, very long drying time & decreasing drying time with different additives, continuous paint film and sealing the surface. I am still fresh and learning in this area and am curious how the end result will look like... and this cannot be said till the last layer is dry and the sealing (varnish) is on and dry too.

I hope, the effort (and the price!!) was worth it. One tube of Old Holland Cadmium Red Deep 40ml was under offer 30€. Rembrandt is cheaper, but some colurs are not covering well (e.g. 228 Ochre Light I cannot use at all and need to mix it from other paints). Some other Rembrandt are just fine (Green Earth, Titanium White and some others). Old Holland and Mussini are top notch. One needs to take care if the paint is totally covering or (partly) translucent – Mussini is known to have many such options one can chose from.

 

Dražen

[Drazen]

… also, some details which will be seen through the white paint below the waterline.

 

Dražen

[Ondras71]

The banner with the name of the ship is amazing as well as the entire ship. Very inspiring building !! Ondras71