Talos

I recently visited Constitution for the first time, and it made me really want to pick up the pen and draw more. Revisiting a topic that we've spilled much ink over, I think I can push Constitution getting the six-port Gurriere/Java/Potomac stern as far back as her 1833 refit, not her 1850s or 1870s ones. A major part of that refit was bringing her up to the standards of modern frigates at the time, including planking in the waist and head.
 
I was looking over various plans of Constitution I have and I noticed something I hadn't before on the 1849 plans. If one looks closely at the stern in the profile drawing, there are indications of the six-port stern, as you can see the sliver of the port-side ports on the gun and spar deck, and the centerline cutaway goes right through the center ports (marked with Xs). That fully fits the kind of refit she had at the time, which was followed up later when her ports were enlarged to fit the 32-pounders and 8-inch shell guns she was refitted with.
 

 
I also noticed an illustration of the ship in France in 1878 carrying exhibits for the Exhibition there, where she is depicted with the full Gurriere arch instead of the "flarch" she had a few years later as a receiving ship and still has today.
 

 
I would like to draw these out properly, compare them with other depictions of the ship, reconstruct them, etc, but I wanted to at least point out what I had noticed in the meantime.

I recently visited Constitution for the first time, and it made me really want to pick up the pen and draw more. Revisiting a topic that we've spilled much ink over, I think I can push Constitution getting the six-port Gurriere/Java/Potomac stern as far back as her 1833 refit, not her 1850s or 1870s ones. A major part of that refit was bringing her up to the standards of modern frigates at the time, including planking in the waist and head.
 
I was looking over various plans of Constitution I have and I noticed something I hadn't before on the 1849 plans. If one looks closely at the stern in the profile drawing, there are indications of the six-port stern, as you can see the sliver of the port-side ports on the gun and spar deck, and the centerline cutaway goes right through the center ports (marked with Xs). That fully fits the kind of refit she had at the time, which was followed up later when her ports were enlarged to fit the 32-pounders and 8-inch shell guns she was refitted with.
 

 
I also noticed an illustration of the ship in France in 1878 carrying exhibits for the Exhibition there, where she is depicted with the full Gurriere arch instead of the "flarch" she had a few years later as a receiving ship and still has today.
 

 
I would like to draw these out properly, compare them with other depictions of the ship, reconstruct them, etc, but I wanted to at least point out what I had noticed in the meantime.

I have not posted in this thread in a while, I started my master's degree program in the spring, and it has been eating up a lot of my free time.
 
I have mentioned the brig Burrows several times before, and it still stands out to me. A beautiful, never-built brig of larger than average size and armed with around 14 guns, either 32-pounder carronades or 27 hundredweight 32-pounder cannons. It was designed by Richard Powell, assistant to John Lenthall. I was struck by the resemblance to Lenthall’s ship-sloop Germantown, so I stuck the two together, and it is very apparent. Above the waterline, the two ships are very similar. Similar bows, stern is the same shape, fore- and mainmasts are in almost the same locations, even the boarding ladder. I know US brigs normally didn’t have quarter galleries, but this one was huge, just slightly smaller than the Boston-class ship-sloops. I copied Germantown’s onto Burrows, and they fit perfectly like they meant to be there. All I had to do to tweak it was shorten the top part of the quarter gallery a bit to fit Burrows’ smaller hammock rails. I also included a drawing with her rig. I have a comparison of lines too, but I need to go back and work on it more so I will post it another time.
 
Burrows
LBP: 126'0"
Beam (Molded): 30'0"
Depth in Hold: 14'0"
 
Germantown
LBP: 150'0"
Beam (Molded): 36'0"
Depth in Hold: 16'8"
 


 
 
This is another drawing I did for a prompt over on Civil War Talk. The sloop Plymouth was captured at Gosport Naval Yard by advancing Confederate forces (along with Germantown). There was a proposal to convert her into an ironclad, which fell through. I combined a proposed Confederate ironclad casemate design with Plymouth’s hull. I also included the armament, two 7-inch Brooke Rifles, two 6.4-inch Brooke Rifles, four IX-inch Dahlgren smoothbores, and a pair of boat howitzers.


 
I did up several gun drawings as well, including the top view of Plymouth’s 7-inch rifles on pivot carriages, a new Marsilly carriage for the old IX-inch Dahlgren I drew. I also drew a British 64-pounder MLR of 64cwt and a British truck carriage for it.
 


I did a drawing of Plymouth’s gundeck based on a combination of a plan In Canney’s Sailing Warships book, and a Library of Congress plan of Plymouth’s great cabin. I plan to use this on another forum to illustrate some armament and layout concepts, but right now it is armed with a mix of 32-pounders and 8” shell guns. I’m also including a larger copy of the two guns and their truck carriages.

I recently visited Constitution for the first time, and it made me really want to pick up the pen and draw more. Revisiting a topic that we've spilled much ink over, I think I can push Constitution getting the six-port Gurriere/Java/Potomac stern as far back as her 1833 refit, not her 1850s or 1870s ones. A major part of that refit was bringing her up to the standards of modern frigates at the time, including planking in the waist and head.
 
I was looking over various plans of Constitution I have and I noticed something I hadn't before on the 1849 plans. If one looks closely at the stern in the profile drawing, there are indications of the six-port stern, as you can see the sliver of the port-side ports on the gun and spar deck, and the centerline cutaway goes right through the center ports (marked with Xs). That fully fits the kind of refit she had at the time, which was followed up later when her ports were enlarged to fit the 32-pounders and 8-inch shell guns she was refitted with.
 

 
I also noticed an illustration of the ship in France in 1878 carrying exhibits for the Exhibition there, where she is depicted with the full Gurriere arch instead of the "flarch" she had a few years later as a receiving ship and still has today.
 

 
I would like to draw these out properly, compare them with other depictions of the ship, reconstruct them, etc, but I wanted to at least point out what I had noticed in the meantime.

I recently visited Constitution for the first time, and it made me really want to pick up the pen and draw more. Revisiting a topic that we've spilled much ink over, I think I can push Constitution getting the six-port Gurriere/Java/Potomac stern as far back as her 1833 refit, not her 1850s or 1870s ones. A major part of that refit was bringing her up to the standards of modern frigates at the time, including planking in the waist and head.
 
I was looking over various plans of Constitution I have and I noticed something I hadn't before on the 1849 plans. If one looks closely at the stern in the profile drawing, there are indications of the six-port stern, as you can see the sliver of the port-side ports on the gun and spar deck, and the centerline cutaway goes right through the center ports (marked with Xs). That fully fits the kind of refit she had at the time, which was followed up later when her ports were enlarged to fit the 32-pounders and 8-inch shell guns she was refitted with.
 

 
I also noticed an illustration of the ship in France in 1878 carrying exhibits for the Exhibition there, where she is depicted with the full Gurriere arch instead of the "flarch" she had a few years later as a receiving ship and still has today.
 

 
I would like to draw these out properly, compare them with other depictions of the ship, reconstruct them, etc, but I wanted to at least point out what I had noticed in the meantime.

I'm really sorry to hear that, man. Also, sorry for not being around much myself. I went back to school, got my master's, then COVID hit, then I got a new job and also got distracted with my 3D printer, writing (I've published a few short stories!), and other stuff, so I haven't been around much recently. I feel the same way, though; I need to dig myself out and get back to all this, too.

I'm really sorry to hear that, man. Also, sorry for not being around much myself. I went back to school, got my master's, then COVID hit, then I got a new job and also got distracted with my 3D printer, writing (I've published a few short stories!), and other stuff, so I haven't been around much recently. I feel the same way, though; I need to dig myself out and get back to all this, too.

I have not posted in this thread in a while, I started my master's degree program in the spring, and it has been eating up a lot of my free time.
 
I have mentioned the brig Burrows several times before, and it still stands out to me. A beautiful, never-built brig of larger than average size and armed with around 14 guns, either 32-pounder carronades or 27 hundredweight 32-pounder cannons. It was designed by Richard Powell, assistant to John Lenthall. I was struck by the resemblance to Lenthall’s ship-sloop Germantown, so I stuck the two together, and it is very apparent. Above the waterline, the two ships are very similar. Similar bows, stern is the same shape, fore- and mainmasts are in almost the same locations, even the boarding ladder. I know US brigs normally didn’t have quarter galleries, but this one was huge, just slightly smaller than the Boston-class ship-sloops. I copied Germantown’s onto Burrows, and they fit perfectly like they meant to be there. All I had to do to tweak it was shorten the top part of the quarter gallery a bit to fit Burrows’ smaller hammock rails. I also included a drawing with her rig. I have a comparison of lines too, but I need to go back and work on it more so I will post it another time.
 
Burrows
LBP: 126'0"
Beam (Molded): 30'0"
Depth in Hold: 14'0"
 
Germantown
LBP: 150'0"
Beam (Molded): 36'0"
Depth in Hold: 16'8"
 


 
 
This is another drawing I did for a prompt over on Civil War Talk. The sloop Plymouth was captured at Gosport Naval Yard by advancing Confederate forces (along with Germantown). There was a proposal to convert her into an ironclad, which fell through. I combined a proposed Confederate ironclad casemate design with Plymouth’s hull. I also included the armament, two 7-inch Brooke Rifles, two 6.4-inch Brooke Rifles, four IX-inch Dahlgren smoothbores, and a pair of boat howitzers.


 
I did up several gun drawings as well, including the top view of Plymouth’s 7-inch rifles on pivot carriages, a new Marsilly carriage for the old IX-inch Dahlgren I drew. I also drew a British 64-pounder MLR of 64cwt and a British truck carriage for it.
 


I did a drawing of Plymouth’s gundeck based on a combination of a plan In Canney’s Sailing Warships book, and a Library of Congress plan of Plymouth’s great cabin. I plan to use this on another forum to illustrate some armament and layout concepts, but right now it is armed with a mix of 32-pounders and 8” shell guns. I’m also including a larger copy of the two guns and their truck carriages.

I don't often poke around in this part of the forum, but I was getting caught up and enjoying the build. You're doing a great job on it.
 
As far as the converted Dahlgrens, fortunately we have a front view of a bunch of the ones from Trenton after she was sunk in the Apia, Samoa Typhoon of 1889. This provides a good view of the muzzle and also the iron carriages. Between Trenton, Vandalia, and Nipsic, there were a dozen of these converted rifles, both in pivot and broadside carriages. 
 

 

 
 
This is a Rodman, but it has the same kind of conversion as the navy guns, with the rifled sleeve inserted and you can match the muzzle changes compared to a normal smoothbore. If you look at the Dahlgrens above, they match.
 

On the real ships, there is usually a hole up through the top called a "lubber's hole" that no self-respecting sailor would use.
 
Instead they climb out on shrouds that extend outwards to the edge of the top (yes, with their backs pointing down at the sea), and hoist themselves up.
 

I have not posted in this thread in a while, I started my master's degree program in the spring, and it has been eating up a lot of my free time.
 
I have mentioned the brig Burrows several times before, and it still stands out to me. A beautiful, never-built brig of larger than average size and armed with around 14 guns, either 32-pounder carronades or 27 hundredweight 32-pounder cannons. It was designed by Richard Powell, assistant to John Lenthall. I was struck by the resemblance to Lenthall’s ship-sloop Germantown, so I stuck the two together, and it is very apparent. Above the waterline, the two ships are very similar. Similar bows, stern is the same shape, fore- and mainmasts are in almost the same locations, even the boarding ladder. I know US brigs normally didn’t have quarter galleries, but this one was huge, just slightly smaller than the Boston-class ship-sloops. I copied Germantown’s onto Burrows, and they fit perfectly like they meant to be there. All I had to do to tweak it was shorten the top part of the quarter gallery a bit to fit Burrows’ smaller hammock rails. I also included a drawing with her rig. I have a comparison of lines too, but I need to go back and work on it more so I will post it another time.
 
Burrows
LBP: 126'0"
Beam (Molded): 30'0"
Depth in Hold: 14'0"
 
Germantown
LBP: 150'0"
Beam (Molded): 36'0"
Depth in Hold: 16'8"
 


 
 
This is another drawing I did for a prompt over on Civil War Talk. The sloop Plymouth was captured at Gosport Naval Yard by advancing Confederate forces (along with Germantown). There was a proposal to convert her into an ironclad, which fell through. I combined a proposed Confederate ironclad casemate design with Plymouth’s hull. I also included the armament, two 7-inch Brooke Rifles, two 6.4-inch Brooke Rifles, four IX-inch Dahlgren smoothbores, and a pair of boat howitzers.


 
I did up several gun drawings as well, including the top view of Plymouth’s 7-inch rifles on pivot carriages, a new Marsilly carriage for the old IX-inch Dahlgren I drew. I also drew a British 64-pounder MLR of 64cwt and a British truck carriage for it.
 


I did a drawing of Plymouth’s gundeck based on a combination of a plan In Canney’s Sailing Warships book, and a Library of Congress plan of Plymouth’s great cabin. I plan to use this on another forum to illustrate some armament and layout concepts, but right now it is armed with a mix of 32-pounders and 8” shell guns. I’m also including a larger copy of the two guns and their truck carriages.

I just spent HOURS reading through this topic. I was putting together a presentation for my modeling group about the Battle of Turtle Gut Inlet and modeling the ships that took part in it. 
The ships I could NOT find any hope of plans for were the following:
Wasp (the first one)
Reprisal (Wickes ship that delivered Ben Franklin to France)
the Brig Nancy
 
Most of the British vessels were fairly easy to find plans on. The HMS Liverpool is a very lovely ship BTW.
The topic on the Lexington has been pretty worn through in this forum, however. I feel that the practicum offered by NRG is very likely on the money for the true Lexington. 
 
The reasons for the lack of plans seems typical for many of the American yards seems pretty normal. I did take a trip to downtown Philadelphia to visit the PA Historical Society where the yard logs of Humphreys are still held in excellent shape which can be personally reviewed at special tables. Here are some pics of the logs from my visit. These images are the copyrighted property of the PA Historical Society and can only be posted here for scholarly/research purposes. Please don't repost anywhere else.

I don't often poke around in this part of the forum, but I was getting caught up and enjoying the build. You're doing a great job on it.
 
As far as the converted Dahlgrens, fortunately we have a front view of a bunch of the ones from Trenton after she was sunk in the Apia, Samoa Typhoon of 1889. This provides a good view of the muzzle and also the iron carriages. Between Trenton, Vandalia, and Nipsic, there were a dozen of these converted rifles, both in pivot and broadside carriages. 
 

 

 
 
This is a Rodman, but it has the same kind of conversion as the navy guns, with the rifled sleeve inserted and you can match the muzzle changes compared to a normal smoothbore. If you look at the Dahlgrens above, they match.
 

I'm in the middle of reading Desolation Island, so this is great timing. Thanks for linking it!

I'm in the middle of reading Desolation Island, so this is great timing. Thanks for linking it!

These are not summaries or dramatic readings of the books, but discussions about the characters, plot twists and impacts the series has had on the literary world. They are really well done, and if you need some appropriate background noise, 'whilst you're widdlin', these might be of interest to you. This series started, with Ian and Mike, about six months ago, and there are currently 35, roughly hour-long episodes, yet they are only up to the book, 'The Ionian Mission'.
 
I urge you all to subscribe to their Youtube Channel. There are only 66 subscribers to date, so maybe we swabbies we can do something about that there low number!
 
Here is episode One, Master and Commander, part 1. Enjoy:
 
 
 
 

Thank you to all for the likes.
 
All the completed deck elements are now permanently glued in place.  
 
 
I got the steam whistle turned and mounted. 
 
 Rear coal scuttles
 
 and forward coal scuttles completed
 
A couple of deck shots showing recently added eyebolts, steam whistle and coal scuttles.


 
The deck is starting to fill. I still need to add three chest, three water buckets and a couple of vent pipes.

Those tracks came out really well! I agree with Gary, I don't think any difference in width is noticeable. I like the contrast with the deck and how they capture the look of tracks laid on top (like the real ones) without standing out too much.

Those tracks came out really well! I agree with Gary, I don't think any difference in width is noticeable. I like the contrast with the deck and how they capture the look of tracks laid on top (like the real ones) without standing out too much.

Those tracks came out really well! I agree with Gary, I don't think any difference in width is noticeable. I like the contrast with the deck and how they capture the look of tracks laid on top (like the real ones) without standing out too much.

Those new guns look amazing. Great work!

I don't often poke around in this part of the forum, but I was getting caught up and enjoying the build. You're doing a great job on it.
 
As far as the converted Dahlgrens, fortunately we have a front view of a bunch of the ones from Trenton after she was sunk in the Apia, Samoa Typhoon of 1889. This provides a good view of the muzzle and also the iron carriages. Between Trenton, Vandalia, and Nipsic, there were a dozen of these converted rifles, both in pivot and broadside carriages. 
 

 

 
 
This is a Rodman, but it has the same kind of conversion as the navy guns, with the rifled sleeve inserted and you can match the muzzle changes compared to a normal smoothbore. If you look at the Dahlgrens above, they match.
 

I don't often poke around in this part of the forum, but I was getting caught up and enjoying the build. You're doing a great job on it.
 
As far as the converted Dahlgrens, fortunately we have a front view of a bunch of the ones from Trenton after she was sunk in the Apia, Samoa Typhoon of 1889. This provides a good view of the muzzle and also the iron carriages. Between Trenton, Vandalia, and Nipsic, there were a dozen of these converted rifles, both in pivot and broadside carriages. 
 

 

 
 
This is a Rodman, but it has the same kind of conversion as the navy guns, with the rifled sleeve inserted and you can match the muzzle changes compared to a normal smoothbore. If you look at the Dahlgrens above, they match.
 

Those new guns look amazing. Great work!

Those new guns look amazing. Great work!