trippwj

Druxey -
 
I confess up front to not have the breadth of familiarity that you do concerning the designing of hulls. I noted your comment about Pett and, as I sometimes do, I wandered down a rabbett hole (see what I did there??Rabbett???) and came across a small piece, originally dated 1662, entitled Cono-Cuneus, or, The Shipwright’s Circular Wedge in a letter to the honourable Sir Robert Moray.  Since included in Wallis' 1685 A treatise of algebra, both historical and practical
 
The transcribed text of Cono-cuneus may be found here (without figures)
Wallis, John. Letter. 1662. “Cono-Cuneus, or, The Shipwright’s Circular Wedge That Is, a Body Resembling in Part a Conus, in Part a Cuneus, Geometrically Considered,” April 7, 1662. http://name.umdl.umich.edu/A67375.0001.001.  
European Cultural Heritage Online (ECHO) has an on-line version of Treatise of Algebra, including cono-cuneus (with figures) which can be found here (cono-cuneus begins on page 402):
 
Wallis, John. 1685. A Treatise of Algebra, Both Historical and Practical : Shewing the Original, Progress, and Advancement Thereof, from Time to Time, and by What Steps It Hath Attained to the Heighth at Which Now It Is ; with Some Additional Treatises. https://echo.mpiwg-berlin.mpg.de/ECHOdocuView?url=/permanent/library/H3GRV5AU/pageimg&start=421&viewMode=index&pn=430&mode=imagepath.
 
If you desire PDF (I know I do - makes the search and selective printing much easier) then that can be found here (note cono-cuneus starts on page 414, with the figures preceding the text. .
  Wallis, John. 1685. A Proposal about Printing a Treatise of Algebra, Historical and Practical: Written by Dr. John Wallis. Richard Davis. https://books.google.com/books?id=TXpmAAAAcAAJ.   I am not sure if there is direct applicability to the lower form of the hull, but his figures would seem to indicate tha is true.                

This has been a most interesting discussion. I do not have the skills to try and replicate the drawings digitally, but have an interest in how these hull forms evolved.
Let me offer another couple of references which may (or may not) be of interest to the conversation.
 
Let me introduce David Balfour.  According to Bellamy, " One of Christian IV’s principal shipwrights was David Balfour (1574–1634). He was born in St Andrews, Scotland, and we know that he travelled abroad to study mathematics. The first reference to him in Denmark occurs in 1597 when he was awarded contracts to build two galleys. They must have been well received as in 1599 he got his first contract to build a large warship."
 
Why Balfour? Well, there are some archival records of his design process, as well as extant drawings/plans. Below are a couple of images from Bellamy (2006)

 

 
Source:
Bellamy, Martin. 2006. “David Balfour and Early Modern Danish Ship Design.” The Mariner’s Mirror 92 (1): 5–22. https://doi.org/10.1080/00253359.2006.10656978.  
So we see some use of the design drawing contemporary to the "Newton" manuscript. Of interest for the 17th Century as well may be the 1620-ish Treatise on Shipbuilding as transcribed and annotated by Salisbury in 1958.  While this treatise moves us a bit later than the Balfour works, we are still quite a bit behind the era of Sutherland. Here, then, are three more which are available for review. Obviously Deane's Doctrine is the more famous, with a very nice book published by Brian Lavery. THe other two, however, have not been transcribed but may contain some interesting tid bits.
 
Salisbury, William, and R. C Anderson, eds. 1958. A Treatise on Shipbuilding: And a Treatise on Rigging, Written about 1620-1625. Occasional Publication, No. 6. London: Society for Nautical Research.
 
While this treatise moves us a bit later than the Balfour works, we are still quite a bit behind the era of Sutherland. Here, then, are three more which are available for review. Obviously Deane's Doctrine is the more famous, with a very nice book published by Brian Lavery. THe other two, however, have not been transcribed but may contain some interesting tid bits.
  Battine, Edward. 1685. The Method of Building, Rigging, Apparelling, & Furnishing His Majesties Ships of Warr, According to Their Rates. https://collections.library.yale.edu/catalog/17268860. Bushnell, Edmund. 1678. The Complete Ship-Wright. Plainly ... Teaching the Proportion Used by Experienced Ship-Wrights ... To Which Are Added, Certain Propositions in Geometry ... Also, a Way of Rowing of Ships by Heaving at the Capstane ... The Fourth Edition, Etc. 4th ed. R. W. for William Fisher. https://books.google.com/books?id=kWpnAAAAcAAJ. Deane, Sir Anthony. 1670. “Anthony Deane’s Doctrine of Naval Architecture and Tables of Inventions Etc. - National Maritime Museum.” 1670. http://collections.rmg.co.uk/archive/objects/471544.html.   One other set of papers I have not had the opportunity to delve into are those by Thomas Harriott (Manuscript on Shipbuilding and Rigging ca. 1608-1610)   Pepper, Jon V. 1981. “Harriot’s Manuscript on Shipbuilding and Rigging (ca. 1608‐1610).” In Five Hundred Years of Nautical Science 1400-1900, edited by Derek Howse, 204–16. National Maritime Museum. https://www.academia.edu/11773314/_III_PEPPER_Jon_V._Harriots_manuscript_on_shipbuilding_and_rigging_ca._1608_1610_. Pepper provides this recreation of lines from Harriot.                                                       Website for the collections is   “The Manuscripts of Thomas Harriot (1560–1621).” 2012. Digital Edition of Thomas Harriot’s Manuscripts. 2012. http://echo.mpiwg-berlin.mpg.de/content/scientific_revolution/harriot.   Also see: Stedall, Jacqueline. 2013. “Notes Made by Thomas Harriot (1560–1621) on Ships and Shipbuilding.” The Mariner’s Mirror 99 (3): 325–27. https://doi.org/10.1080/00253359.2013.815995.       At any rate, one final modern study that may be of interest would be the following:   Kenchington, Trevor John. 1993. “The Structures of English Wooden Ships: William Sutherland’s Ship, circa 1710.” The Northern Mariner 3 (1): 1–43.   Enjoy!  Hope some of this is useful in your efforts.

The answer, as so often, is that it depends what your interests are - time period, nationality, model building reference or historical reference? Merchant or Naval?
 
British navy floating walls of the 18/19th century - Lavery. Restoration Navy (also useful for merchant ships of the time period - 17th century) then Endsor.
 
I can speak to the quality of both options.
 
 

The answer, as so often, is that it depends what your interests are - time period, nationality, model building reference or historical reference? Merchant or Naval?
 
British navy floating walls of the 18/19th century - Lavery. Restoration Navy (also useful for merchant ships of the time period - 17th century) then Endsor.
 
I can speak to the quality of both options.
 
 

Die Bobrik Bände 1, 2.1, 2.2 und 3 in guter Auflösung und mit vollständig aufgeklappten Tafeln (rund 3.300 Seiten, 830 MB) sind online bei
 
Handbuch der praktischen Seefahrtskunde
 
Einzelne Kapiel können hier geladen werden:
Inhalt
 


 

Grüße,
Andreas

It is just three languages, but Capt. Paasch's "From Keel to Truck" (1885) might be a helpful resource (Digitized by Mystic Seaport Museum):   https://research.mysticseaport.org/item/l010988/l010988-c012/

Ah, it's the 'Bobrik'. Here is a bibliography of this important mid-19th century German author of a very comprehensive maritime encyclopedia:
 
E   BOBRIK, E. (1846) Handbuch der praktischen Seefahrtskunde, Bd. I, enthaltend allgemeine Vorbereitungen zur Steuermanns- und Schifferkunde.- 1-816, Zürich/Hamburg (Julius Fröbel & Co./Hoffman & Campe).
 
E   BOBRIK, E. (1846) Handbuch der praktischen Seefahrtskunde, Bd. 2-1, enthaltend geographische und astronomische Steuermannskunde.- 817-1808, Zürich/Hamburg (Julius Fröbel & Co./Hoffman & Campe).
 
E   BOBRIK, E. (1846): Handbuch der praktischen Seefahrtskunde, Bd. 3, enthaltend logarithmische, geographische und astronomische Tabellen; Tafeln zur Schifferkunde; geometrische Zeichnungen, Abbildungen und Karten.- Tafeln (nicht ausgefaltet!), Zürich/Hamburg (Julius Fröbel & Co./Hoffman & Campe).
 
E   BOBRIK, E. (1848): Handbuch der praktischen Seefahrtskunde, Bd. 2-2, enthaltend Schifferkunde.- 1809-2688, Leipzig (Verlagsbureau).
 
B   BOBRIK, E. (1848): Handbuch der praktischen Seefahrtskunde, Bd. I.- 816 p., Leipzig (Verlagsbureau).
 
B   BOBRIK, E. (1848): Handbuch der praktischen Seefahrtskunde, Bd. II, I. Abtheilung.- 992 p., Leipzig (Verlagsbureau).
 
E   BOBRIK, E. (1848): Handbuch der praktischen Seefahrtskunde. Bd. II, II Abtheilung: Stereometrie ; Statik und Hydrostatik; Dynamik und Hydrodynamik; Schiffgebäudekunde; Zurüstungskunde; Manövrierkunde; Ankerkunde.- X+858 p., Leipzig (Verlagsbureau).
 
B   BOBRIK, E. (1848): Handbuch der praktischen Seefahrtskunde, Schiffgebäudekunde, Zurüstungskunde, Manövrierkunde, Ankerkunde, Tafeln zur Schifferkunde.- 604 p. + Tafelband, Leipzig (Nachdruck 1978 bei Horst Hamecher, Kassel).
 
B   BOBRIK, E. (1848): Vom Tauwerk und seiner Zubereitung zur Taakelasche (aus Handbuch der praktischen Seefahrtskunde.- 24 p., Leipzig (Nachdruck 1975 bei Verlag Egon Heinemann, Norderstedt).
 
E   BOBRIK, E. (1858): Allgemeines Nautisches Wörterbuch mit Sacherklärungen: Deutsch, Englisch, Französich, Spanisch, Portugiesisch, Italienisch, Schwedisch, Dänisch, Holländisch.- 752 p., Leipzig (Robert Hoffmann).
 
An E in front of the title means that you can find a digital version on the Internet.

I received today “Plank-on-Frame Models” Vol.1 and 2 by H.A. Underhill. The dust cover looks a bit rotten but the books itself are still in a good condition. It’s the 4th print from 1968 (same age as me lol) and they were only GBP 7.90 both together. I think that’s a fair price.
 

 
I hope they will become a good source of knowledge and inspiration.
 
Micha

Comparatively speaking, a container is fairly light. The heaviest containers are generally stowed low down, in the hold, rather than in the deck stacks. If the bridge was that vulnerable to collapse from a hit from a heavyweight container, I’d be more concerned every time a semi-truck jack-knifed (which happens waaayyy more frequently than a ship strike).
 
Andy

*Keith extends elbows out to the sides

Cheers guys for your early responses. Allan the three books  you have put at the top of your list I already have. At the moment I am working my way through the 18th century but sometimes get drawn into an earlier period.Perhaps I will take a look at the Seawatch books .  trippwj , I am pretty much interested in all the things you have mentioned , however building model ships is my main interest but definately getting pulled towards the history of sail ,especially some of the great battles and which ships were involved and what types were used. I am pretty much interested in anything to do with the age of sail. I have also found a local book shop which sells the magazines Model Shipwright and thinking of buying a number of these as I am finding these quite interesting too . Something whaich I asked about on a previous question I posted.

The answer, as so often, is that it depends what your interests are - time period, nationality, model building reference or historical reference? Merchant or Naval?
 
British navy floating walls of the 18/19th century - Lavery. Restoration Navy (also useful for merchant ships of the time period - 17th century) then Endsor.
 
I can speak to the quality of both options.
 
 

Exactly what I was going to write.  Well said.   I have two books by Endsor and for the 17th century they are fantastic.   For overall usefulness, at least for English ships you have the the three I would put up at the top of the list, Lees (Masting and Rigging), Lavery (Arming and Fitting) , and Goodwin (Construction and Fitting)  For scantlings-  Steel's Elements and Practice of Naval Architecture, The Shipbuilder's Repository (1788) and the Establishments although these can be very expensive. These have been put together all in one book available from Seawatch Books.   TFFM by David Antscherl offers a wealth of information on "how to" that is applicable in many ways to a host if ships, not just the Swan class around which it is centered.
Allan

You need them. Now.
 
 

https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/mary-rose-royal-navy-mystery-060000763.html

This topic remains very informative!  I had not delved into the excavation and survey reports on the Colossus before.  They are quite interesting.
 
Of particular note concerning the "stop beam" (note that this is a term the research team coined) is the following analysis from the 2012 Monitoring and Investigation Report available here (page 38): http://www.cismas.org.uk/downloads.php
 
"Just below the gun port a curved timber beam was fastened to the side of the hull, over the inner hull planking (figs 24, 25 & 31). This timber has been assigned the name ‘stop beam’ and its likely function was for the gun carriage to bump against when the gun was pulled up into the firing position – rather than bumping against the inner hull planking. I have been unable to find any concordances for this structural element in any of the literature on ships of the period (or indeed on any sailing vessels). However, a similar wooden beam is known in 19th century terrestrial gun emplacements where it is called a hurter. The stated function of the hurter was to protect the parapet from the wheels of the gun carriage (OED). The stop beam is 1.40m long, 0.16m wide and 0.26m thick at its widest point. The surface of the beam is curved, presumably to facilitate aiming of the gun forward or astern of the beam. The stop beam is fastened to the hull using iron fastenings and trenails. On the underside of this beam (now facing north) were a number of incised lines, one of which consists of three parallel lines, resembling a Roman numeral ‘III’ (fig 32). These may represent builder’s marks – and would have been very difficult to see or access when the ship was upright. Incidentally, this is the third MGD port on the starboard side counting from the stern. The function of this piece of wood was presumably to protect the side of the ship from the impact of the gun carriage when pulled up into the firing position (fig 31). Whether stop beams are a peculiarity of Colossus or merely absent from the literature is not at this stage known – but I suspect the former case is more likely."
 
On a related note, I do not believe that, given the level of attention shown to documenting the survey, they ommitted the waterway, but rather it was not there.  Note the scupper that was located at deck level, which would have been covered were there a waterway (note - down is up n these photographs and the sketch.  That is, the deck is at the top and the upper deck is at the bottom). 
 

 

Hello! I figured I should post a little about myself as I am (somewhat) new to this form. I discovered this hobby about 3 years ago during the pandemic. I remember scrolling through YouTube, looking at the same old videos of plastic models being put together, when all of a sudden I found a video by John Aliprantis, "Santa Ana The Making Of," I watched it and immediately fell in love with the hobby (or should I say art) of wooden ship modeling. I then watched all of his videos and not after too long I ended up with Occre's Golden Hind kit. This was a HUGE mistake as a beginner as I had no idea what I was doing, there was then a brief period where I distanced myself from the hobby, I thought that this may not be for me and that I would have no resources to figure out how to construct these masterpieces. That is when I stumbled upon this form, it made a huge difference in my understanding of this hobby and I was able to power through the Golden Hind build, (though it wasn't pretty). I then took another gap before I decided to take a look at other brands, this is when I tried Artesania Latina with their HMS Endeavour's Longboat kit. This was a much better fit for me as it took what I learned with the Golden Hind and reinforced it. I finished Endeavour's Longboat today, after about a month and a half of work. The timing on this could not be better as it is believed they have found the actual HMS Endeavour just off the coast of Rhode Island a couple weeks ago. I decided to make an actual account on this form so that I could make a build log for my next build, (Drum-Roll.....) Artesania Latina's San Juan Nepomuceno... I know, I know, she's an old model, and she's plagued with many issues, but I have looked over many build logs and videos to learn from the mistakes of others. I want to make a build log that clears the air of any misconceptions with the model in case someone is hesitant to build it based off the reputation it's earned from the elite modelers. So that's why I am here... Anyways! A little about me. I live in the great state of Colorado, the great fourteeners peeking through my windows. History has always had a reserved spot in my heart. When I finish college I hope to work for the Smithsonian preserving my nations artifacts and history. Music has also always had a reserved spot in my heart too, I have played the French Horn for many years and I have also played the Bass guitar in Jazz Band, making it into the top bands wherever I have gone. I am set to preform in the Sydney Opera House, June 2024. I have experience making Plastic, Metal, Wood, and Paper models. There is not a single modeling style I have no experience in so if you have any questions let me know. I cannot wait to get started on my next build, which wont be for a little less than a month, but we will be there in no time. Thank you very much for reading, and I hope you all are having a great morning, afternoon, evening, etc. Thanks!

The following post is from Mystic Seaport. I have no idea who Paul is...
 
As an integral part of the MAINSHEET initiative, one of our goals was to digitize the archived printed copies of The Log of Mystic Seaport for increased and broader public access. The Log ran from 1948-2004, and was included with a museum membership. At its height, the magazine was circulated to over 25,000 members. It included articles of interest on all things maritime, including shipbuilding, history, maritime society and justice, architecture, art, and even invasive species! It is a fabulous resource to remind us of who we are and where we came from as an institution. Please take some time to peruse some of the issues, and you will find that many of our current ideas have a long history. It is also a record and celebration of many of the great thinkers and experts who have come through MSM since the middle of the last century.
 
Paul has been working with volunteers and staff over the last two years to achieve this goal, and it has officially launched! Congratulations to Paul and his team!
 
NEW! All issues of the Log of Mystic Seaport are now available for download.
https://research.mysticseaport.org/indexes/log/
 

The following post is from Mystic Seaport. I have no idea who Paul is...
 
As an integral part of the MAINSHEET initiative, one of our goals was to digitize the archived printed copies of The Log of Mystic Seaport for increased and broader public access. The Log ran from 1948-2004, and was included with a museum membership. At its height, the magazine was circulated to over 25,000 members. It included articles of interest on all things maritime, including shipbuilding, history, maritime society and justice, architecture, art, and even invasive species! It is a fabulous resource to remind us of who we are and where we came from as an institution. Please take some time to peruse some of the issues, and you will find that many of our current ideas have a long history. It is also a record and celebration of many of the great thinkers and experts who have come through MSM since the middle of the last century.
 
Paul has been working with volunteers and staff over the last two years to achieve this goal, and it has officially launched! Congratulations to Paul and his team!
 
NEW! All issues of the Log of Mystic Seaport are now available for download.
https://research.mysticseaport.org/indexes/log/
 

The following post is from Mystic Seaport. I have no idea who Paul is...
 
As an integral part of the MAINSHEET initiative, one of our goals was to digitize the archived printed copies of The Log of Mystic Seaport for increased and broader public access. The Log ran from 1948-2004, and was included with a museum membership. At its height, the magazine was circulated to over 25,000 members. It included articles of interest on all things maritime, including shipbuilding, history, maritime society and justice, architecture, art, and even invasive species! It is a fabulous resource to remind us of who we are and where we came from as an institution. Please take some time to peruse some of the issues, and you will find that many of our current ideas have a long history. It is also a record and celebration of many of the great thinkers and experts who have come through MSM since the middle of the last century.
 
Paul has been working with volunteers and staff over the last two years to achieve this goal, and it has officially launched! Congratulations to Paul and his team!
 
NEW! All issues of the Log of Mystic Seaport are now available for download.
https://research.mysticseaport.org/indexes/log/
 

The following post is from Mystic Seaport. I have no idea who Paul is...
 
As an integral part of the MAINSHEET initiative, one of our goals was to digitize the archived printed copies of The Log of Mystic Seaport for increased and broader public access. The Log ran from 1948-2004, and was included with a museum membership. At its height, the magazine was circulated to over 25,000 members. It included articles of interest on all things maritime, including shipbuilding, history, maritime society and justice, architecture, art, and even invasive species! It is a fabulous resource to remind us of who we are and where we came from as an institution. Please take some time to peruse some of the issues, and you will find that many of our current ideas have a long history. It is also a record and celebration of many of the great thinkers and experts who have come through MSM since the middle of the last century.
 
Paul has been working with volunteers and staff over the last two years to achieve this goal, and it has officially launched! Congratulations to Paul and his team!
 
NEW! All issues of the Log of Mystic Seaport are now available for download.
https://research.mysticseaport.org/indexes/log/
 

The following post is from Mystic Seaport. I have no idea who Paul is...
 
As an integral part of the MAINSHEET initiative, one of our goals was to digitize the archived printed copies of The Log of Mystic Seaport for increased and broader public access. The Log ran from 1948-2004, and was included with a museum membership. At its height, the magazine was circulated to over 25,000 members. It included articles of interest on all things maritime, including shipbuilding, history, maritime society and justice, architecture, art, and even invasive species! It is a fabulous resource to remind us of who we are and where we came from as an institution. Please take some time to peruse some of the issues, and you will find that many of our current ideas have a long history. It is also a record and celebration of many of the great thinkers and experts who have come through MSM since the middle of the last century.
 
Paul has been working with volunteers and staff over the last two years to achieve this goal, and it has officially launched! Congratulations to Paul and his team!
 
NEW! All issues of the Log of Mystic Seaport are now available for download.
https://research.mysticseaport.org/indexes/log/
 

The following post is from Mystic Seaport. I have no idea who Paul is...
 
As an integral part of the MAINSHEET initiative, one of our goals was to digitize the archived printed copies of The Log of Mystic Seaport for increased and broader public access. The Log ran from 1948-2004, and was included with a museum membership. At its height, the magazine was circulated to over 25,000 members. It included articles of interest on all things maritime, including shipbuilding, history, maritime society and justice, architecture, art, and even invasive species! It is a fabulous resource to remind us of who we are and where we came from as an institution. Please take some time to peruse some of the issues, and you will find that many of our current ideas have a long history. It is also a record and celebration of many of the great thinkers and experts who have come through MSM since the middle of the last century.
 
Paul has been working with volunteers and staff over the last two years to achieve this goal, and it has officially launched! Congratulations to Paul and his team!
 
NEW! All issues of the Log of Mystic Seaport are now available for download.
https://research.mysticseaport.org/indexes/log/
 

There's a nice series about the Titanic Inquiry which has been highlighted by the Society for Nautical Research as in the attached note from them. The podcasts recreating the evidence given by four survivors of the sinking are about 30 minutes each and very interesting indeed. In case you haven't heard them, they are strongly recommended.
 
Tony
 
==
The Titanic Enquiry 
 
The latest episodes of our award-winning podcast The Mariner's Mirror Podcast include a five-part series based on the British Titanic Enquiry.

An enormous project has been underway in America in recent years to transcribe both the British and American enquiries. To bring this work to a large audience we have dramatised a number of testimonies allowing our listeners to eavesdrop on the enquiry.

You can now hear directly from Lady Duff Gordon, a First Class passenger, and one of only two passengers interviewed at the inquiry (the other being her husband). Lady Duff Gordon was also one of only three women to give testimony. Along with her husband, she was also one of only two witnesses to actually request to be interviewed. Lady Duff Gordon’s perspective, therefore, is unusual and significant in many ways and makes for riveting listening, casting an entirely new light on the tragedy.

We also hear from we hear from Fred Barrett, a stoker from Liverpool. Fred had been tasked with extinguishing a fire and was in one of the boiler rooms when the collision happened. If you are interested in what happened in the bowels of the ship during the sinking his testimony is one of the very best.

Charles Lightoller, Titanic's second officer and the most senior officer to survive the disaster also gives evidence. Lightoller is a fascinating character. By the age of 21 he had survived a shipwreck, a cyclone and a shipboard fire. Lightoller was a major focus for both the British and American inquiries. During the Wreck Commissioner’s Enquiry, Lightoller was called to the stand three times over the same number of days and was asked 2951 questions. His testimony is greatly detailed and provides numerous fascinating glimpses into the disaster and its aftermath.

Finally we hear from Annie Robinson. Annie was a First Class Stewardess and one of only three women interviewed at the inquiry. She was asleep when Titanic collided with the iceberg - and this was the second time she had been on a vessel that had collided with an iceberg. Annie led her charges to safety and escaped herself but was troubled for the rest of her life by her experience and ultimately committed suicide by jumping overboard another vessel just two years later.

All episodes of the dramatised Titanic enquiry can be found here.