dafi

On the road again, meeting Viccies, seeing colors that I´ve never seen ... Adapted the color of the 2018 version a bit. Funny, like the original, it reacts very much upon the light. Looks different every time ... Fixed the board that protects the hammock cranes from underneath. 🙂 Cheers, XXXDAn

And one more piece finished 🙂 The material of the guns is still in discussion. Did the Vici n 1782 still have brass guns - as Bugler and McKay see as a possibility - or did she have already iron ones. As discussed before, I will keep you updated. So that was no. 2 out of four being ready now. Approx. 1780 and 1920 are done, 1805 and 2018 still to follow. Cheers, dafi

Made the missing lids ... ... drilled the holes for the hinge ... ... fixed with the necessary distance ... ... and put in the lanyards. The half port lids need extra distance as fort the moulding. So the hinges are quite far out. Also put in the lanyards. Coming close to the finishing line 🙂 XXXDAn

Thank you, this is where I got the basic idea from 🙂 But using the sprue I can choose the basic color and also can specify the ratio from internal to external diameter, as this one stays the same throughout the procedure. XXXDAn

Final sprint in view 🙂 Take a sprue, drill a hole and ... ... heat it up and pull 🙂 After some tries I had suitable tubes of 0,7 mmm outside and 0,3 mm inside. Alined them on 0,3 mm wire to be able to cut without smashing them by rolling under a knife. Drilled some 0,75 mm in the right angle into the ship ... ... and glue the tubes in with a wire still as handling help. Checked the angle and checked the opening with a needle, then still applied some paint nice name "rotten leather" ;-). Then fixing the halliards, to unravel the thread did not work as they were too thin ... ... so held the thread tight onto a round edge and usied a sharpened needle in the right angle. Works rather easy ... ... prepared the ringbolt ... ... threaded the bold and lead the free part of the thread through the eye of the needle, pulled ... ... and a second go for the splice, some glue and - DONE !!! The port lids are waiting already 🙂 XXXDAn

Hello Christian, I am following the contemporary model of 1765and this is how it is done there. I had a fast look onto other models, there much more often the fake frieze was even omitted, leaving a wooden square in the colored ground ... XXXDAn

Once the irons being fixed one can see the difference in V1 to the actual version. As the first build just developed without further planing, it was not possible to fix all the irons properly as for the ports, so it was good to have a fall back version and to start anew 🙂 An after all this fiddling with the small tiny chain links it was good to fix something bigger in a decent size ... ... the port for the main tack, the batten for the channel board being fixed, some ringbolts to straighten the shrouds and the missing port lids ... ... splashed some paint ... ... the side half door lids with the painted frieze ... ... and the very elegant conduct of the lifting halliard of the foremost gun port lid 🙂 XXXDAn

Thank you druxey. I am with you. But I wonder about the sources of Bugler and McKay. At least the Vic of 1737 was not found yet at the date of the release of their books, so less confusion then. XXXDAn

Hello druxey and Gary, thank you for the input, always important to have this kind of questions and corrections. I was going through a lot of my sources lately and found the same kind of statement like Bugler´s at AOTS McKay, that made me believe some years ago, that the brass cannons were used on the Vic until this date. But he is even more vague about it. Now reading it more aware-fully, he also could have expressed that in general all the brass guns were replaced by the 1790ies. On the other hand he states that it is possible that before 1782 the Vic still had brass guns, without specifying if all of the guns or only the larger calibers. As McKay is largely based on Bugler, I would strongly guess, that he based his opinion upon Bugler´s book. I also remember a newer input after the discovery of the 1737 Victory, that this ship was the last major ship being fitted with an all brass ordnance. Did not locate the source again yet, but also do believe that this was in a video or news section, and do not know the quality of the sources that this statement was based on. All my other sources so far do not give a statement upon the gun´s material prior to 1782/1788. Cheers, Daniel

Some more tinkering around happened ... Some 0,6 mm brass wire was bend on the template ... ... cut open ... ...collected ... ... alined ... ... and looks ok. Then soldered with homeopathic dosages of solder ... https://www.mediaharmonists.de/bilder/Sammler31/Victory-1765-Channel-irons_4796.jpg[/img] ... and blackened. XXXDAn

Thank you Sirs, @druxey My understanding was, that the Vic of 1765 was first fitted with brass cannons and those being replaced by iron later on? Is this not correct? Have to look at my literature again. Cheers and Thank you, Daniel

Some more thoughts about the color and patina on the guns. Something I realised was that the Humbrol bronze was much more reddisch then most of the guns I encountered so far. So the conclusion is not to only look for the patina but also for the color of the bare metal. First some shots from casts of reproductions Some historic barrels show interesting colorshadings, as to be seen in Wikipedia and also on youtube. Most of them are not reddish but brass like ... ... or almost black with hints of green. Look at this section of a fresh cast. Bare yellow metal inside, patina from the cast on the outside. Only the reproduction of the barral of the Vasa appears to have a reddish touch, even though after the cast the appearance was still yellowish. Also a gun from soleil Royale shows more reddish material (Thanks to Michel Saunier) The guns from Victory 1737 make believe a reddish color, but could be nothing than the patina. So I played with the basic color Still can´t decide upon 94 "Gold" end 92 the more reddish"Brass", The officiel "Bronze" 95 appears too reddish even for Vasa or Soleil. Any of the savants knowing more about the metallurgy of those times? What was the cast at Vasa's time made off? What at 1760 in England? And what like in 1860 in America? What does that mean about the basic color? Still looking for original bronze barrels from before 1780 with polished sides. XXXDAn

Slow progress ... Next came the frieze: 3 colors ... ... first the middle one ... ... then into darkness they dwell ... ... then come the highlights ... ... gonna be fine enough 🙂 The same way the cherub was done. Then tried some shading for the bronze guns. The huibrol bronze was the first test. Some brown already helps a lot 🙂 From the museums one knows green or polished in brass-look. But how did they look in real life when in use? Questionmarks!!! XXXDAn

Actually I am looking for both, brass and cast iron to show the difference in my slices 🙂 I have no idea when the marines started to polish everything for the polishing sake. Steel gives a choice of about 5 different recipes in one of his books, just can´t find the place right now. Bruzelius gives this short review of Brady´s recipes, http://www.bruzelius.info/Nautica/Seamanship/Fordyce(1837)_p47.html Blacking guns and shot. Coal-tar alone, or mixed with a little water, is the best thing for Blacking Guns and Shot. It should be laid on quite warm; and if the day be cold, a hot shot may with advantage be put into the Guns to warm the Metal, and make it take the Blacking better; due attention being previously paid to unloading. Lay the Stuff on as thin as possible, with Paint-brushes; using hot Salamanders or Bolts to keep it warm. If well laid on, and wiped afterwards with an oil-cloth occasionally, this process will prevent rust, and preserve the good look of the Guns for a length of time, without ever having recourse to washing with water. [p 48] It is useful to measure and keep a memorandum of the quantity of Blacking required for each of the operations. A Ten-gun Brig requires as follows:- For Blacking Rigging, ... 12 Gallons " Bends, ... 2 " " Yards, ... 3 " " Guns and Shot, ... 1 " The time now required for drying the Rigging, &c. may be most advantageously employed in completing Stores, Provisions, and Water. French recipe for blacking guns. To one Gallon of Vinegar put ten Ounces of Lampblack, and one Pound and a half of clean-sifted Iron-rust, and mix them well together. Lay this on the Guns, after a good coat of Black Paint, and rub it occasionally with a soft Oil-cloth. Here is Brady in the original https://books.google.de/books?id=wQxqa5K_zcgC&printsec=frontcover&hl=de&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false Page 389 to 393 If one looks in the net for life fire, one can find some brass cannons. From the american civil war those are usually quite polished and really shiny ... ... or a little bit more dull but still light in color. (OK, this one was wet by rain on top of it) But very interesting is the reproduced gun of the Vasa. When cast still shiny and lightcolored ... ... already darker when drilled ... ... and nicely brown when fired. XXXDAn

For quite a while I am researching for a realistic appearance of the guns of the good ol´days. From the museums we know the green bronze guns or the shiny black painted cast iron guns. But what were the true colors? In early paintings of the 16XX some guns appear greenish, mixed with brownish ones in the same pictures. Could this be an indication of bronze and iron? Later on in the times of the cast iron guns they appear darker: blackish or anthrazit. For iron Steel provides us with some nice recipes based around vinegar, soot and oil, creating a oxide layer that protects. Did ever anybody tried this out? What color should be expected? Blackish? Dark brownish? Also, do theses recipes exist too for bronze guns? What color should be expected then? Here are some tests for ma little slice On the right as comparison the Humbrol/Revell bronze with a slight touch of brown casein paint. On the left a stronger brown, then some black added and number tree with a greenish touch. What could be the most realistic? XXXXDAn

I do not think, that it should be that tight, as the rudder must - move with the tiller - in case of emergency the rudder must have enough space to unhinge without breaking this chain. Anyway this is the setup of the 1920 Vic. The original model of 1765 shows thos lien to move through the channel board and to be continued up to the poop where it is fitted onto a knighthead. http://collections.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/66473.html SLR0512

Thank you Gary and Mark. As long as I still keep gathering the input for 1805, I kept working on the version of 1765 to 1788 (great repair) or 1797 (decommissioned). Luckily I did 2 slices in the old and long forgotten days :-). One was fitted with deadeyes and chains, but proved to have some inaccuracies, that is why I decided to keep on working on the other one. First came the frieze. First the base with the medium color then the shadows and the highlights. One can see that the chain board was removed. was atop the whales and not on them. The good thing on the painting technic that I use is, that repairs can be nicely done. First the priming with the classical small pots from Humbrol/Revell. The 2 shades of brown with the casein paint and blended with the mostly dry brush. As the knees will be on the same place, I took it easy on that part 😉 Replaced the chain boards and gave it a new color suiting the 1765 model. As it was too easy until now, I decided to open one gun port. So back to the heavy machines do dig deep ... ... cleared the back too ... ... and faked the inside boards. Yes I mean faked 😉 ... Also the port with the half lids was updated. And then some paint and the reason for the opening. The model shows an interesting color scheme for the middle deck: White insides of the ports with a red rabbet. Cheers, Daniel

But me too I messed up ... Goodwin states 28.04.1803 and you the the Kent 28.04.1804 ... Have to put this clear for my brain still ...

I found my reference that I relied on: Goodwin Ships of Trafalgar. He also refers to the inspection and accounting of the ordnance on the 28.04.1803, so most possibly the same source. The numbers he states are 30 32pdrs, 28 24pdrs, 30 long 12pdrs for the upper deck, 12 short 12pdrs quarter deck, 2 medium 12pdrs and 2 24pdrs carronades on the forecastle. The 6 18pdrs carronades of the poop were said to be removed. XXXDAn

If I remember well, the information about the carronade(s) either came out of "Nelsons ships" or "Ships at Trafalgar" from Goodwin. Have to double check the entries there, to see if I misunderstood or if possibly he could have misunderstood the entry you have shown. Thank you for the as always well researched information! And especially a big thank you for sharing it!!! Cheers, DAniel

In our german forum I have a accumulated list with all the data I found in chronological order. It states that the Vic undocked on the 11.04.1803 still with 2 24-pounder carronades. So it fits well into the scheme 🙂 On the 14.05. she went to sea. I added already the new data. Thank you for those informations. https://www.segelschiffsmodellbau.com/t5759f198-Fakten-zur-Victory.html#msg117794 XXXDAn

@Gary: many thanks! When I started my Vic some 10 Years ago, everybody was of the opinion: OH NO, not another Victory, how boring. Today I know it is one of the least known ships and it is always a real treat to throw some lights into the dark corners of this ship´s history. Today I am happy to build the Vic, as it shows par excellence, how little we really do know about the ships of this time and how much research is still necessary! Cheers, Daniel

Thank you Jan and Gary. I still do not know yet, still putting all informations together to at least get a well educated guess. For the side entry port there are some very interesting observations I made over the last years. First the Vic. She was most certainly build with one most possibly both sides. All contemporary plans and models show this, also the drawing of 1779, „Sailing by the White Cliffs of Dover“. All of these show the old fashioned version with two columns and the groin vault. There was a major refit in 1788 and from this point on ALL plans, drawings and paintings are omitting the side entry port. See https://collections.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/79913.html and the well known paintings of Dodd and Swaine. It is also omitted in ALL post-Trafalgar drawings and paintings. On the Vic the side entry port just reappears on the drawing of Edward William Cooke from 1828. But then it is situated one port more aft 🙂 So to me the sources upon the Vic are very robust and consistent in this sense, no port in between about 1788 and 1828. Very interesting is too, that I realised the same happening to most all first and second rates. They are missing this port from about 1760 onwards. To be seen on plans, drawings, paintings, models. Perhaps as it was the time of the american war of independence and the ships were send overseas more often ? That is the only guess I have as far as I can see know. Funny enough the Vic lost the side entry port for a gun port but the number of guns was not increased on this deck. I do not have sources to see if this happened too to other three deckers. The side entry port first reappeared for other vessels on the plans for the Ville de Paris 1795, Temeraire Class 1798 and Ocean Class 1805, but not completely consistent yet, but became standard again soon after. But another question I do have about the use of this port. The german name for it translates with "Admiralty port" and was believed to be just for the admirals or other high rated officers. In all the sources of the time of Trafalgar and earlier I never found any hint about this sole use. Just in much later times there are some hints about this restricted use. So what was the use of this port? Also the missing information about the doors, blinds or bulkheads is puzzling me. No signs of it and people having their hammocks nearby ... Was it really there for protocol reason? Or was it for more? Or - heretically question - did it simply provide a way to empty the potties from two lower decks? And was therefor open and no guns placed? So as usual, questions above questions. All the best, Daniel

Ok, time for some heretic thoughts. After some great basic work from Maik.L in our german forum analyzing the Turner drawings I tried those thought digitally on my small slice. https://www.segelschiffsmodellbau.com/t7042f1475-HMS-Victory-Spurensuche-4.html#msg155257 Important: This is not about the shade, this is only about the width of the stripes. First the classical V1, as to be seen our days in Portsmouth. Turner saw and drew the ship before and after Trafalgar. Those scribbles are difficult to evaluate, bat they give some interesting hints. As there are in his drawings and paintings no signs of the black checkers after Trafalgar, that leads to V2 In most of Turner´s drawings and paintings the yellow stripes appears larger than the black one that gives V3 Without the checker V4 And if the hinges were painted too, that would give V5 So if you want to crucify me now, you may. Whistling greetings, XXXDAn PS. Everybody only one cross, please.

Thank you folks 🙂 Ok time to go back to THE Vic, 21 Oktober 9:17 o´clock in the morning. The base are the Turner drawings done after Trafalgar and the model SLR0513 (Victory (?)/Boyne 1810 - https://www.segelschiffsmodellbau.com/t2690f198-Falsch-zugeordnete-Victory-Modelle-im-NMM.html) and some other sources from the time of 1800 to 1805. First the new build forecastle barricade, with the openings for the timberheads. and the rough state is done 🙂 XXXDAn