dafi

Just to support Chuck´s and Greg´s observation: When I started to hit the french forums, I was surprised them not doing the "usual" diffentiation in color inbeteen the standing and running rigging. Even more they were surprised that we or better I did. Eversince I orientate myself more on the style I saw on Hermione: different colors due to different level of tarring and also different bleaching by sun and salt. To the question if parts are wormed but not served I would like to show you the pictures of Invincible´s stays, nice to see the different worming, serving and the differences of stay and preventer stay 🙂 The mainstay wormed the whole length, served around the masthead up to the mouse, the preventer no worming along the length but wormed and served around the masthead. All pictures taken from the Facebook site of Invincible wreck. Enjoy! XXXDAn

My 27 cents as for the color, as seen at Hermione: 50-thousend shades of brownish grey 🙂 No one is alike the other and even the shrouds are not completely black 😉 XXXDAn

Time to continue with the big launch. The masts have been redesigned, with details taken from Steel. I keep noticing that thin printed parts such as oars and masts warp after painting. See the upper half of the picture. After a quick dip in hot water, they are straight again, see bottom half http://www.shipmodels.info/mws_forum/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif I simplified the rigging of the launch and combined various sources. As with the Hermione boats, the eye bolts were no longer attached to the top of the gunwale but underneath on the frames. It looks much clearer. Here is the first dummy rig with the newly positioned attachment points. Once rigged, it looks like this. I actually wanted to work without stays, but due to the stubborn rigging, this is hardly possible without curvature. The mainstay should then of course lead to the foot of the foremast. Here are the attachment points in detail. The running end is wrapped around a cleat, but not yet stowed. And the sails are also waiting to be processed http://www.shipmodels.info/mws_forum/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif XXXDAn

In the meantime I was working a bit on the big guns, here are some samples. More on that adventure here :

I had once an analysis to the "3 feet below the yard". It is measured from the top of the yard in my opinion, other points of taking the measure do make no sense imho. Short Executive Version: The simplyfied definition "3 feet underneath the yard" would possibly read on the working basis like this: Stirrup 3 Feet long, with enough overlength to do 3 turns around the yard and nailed to the top of the yard. Hangs behind and underneath the yard. XXXDAn

So one never stop learning, one never stop learning ... So, the gunlock has been moved to the correct position, and I hope it's now a little closer to the original 🙂 Flanged to the starboard side of the ignition pan of the barrel, the retaining bolt(s) pass horizontally through it, so the barrel itself does not need to be weakened. The pan of the lock protrudes above the pan of the barrel. There were also corresponding changes to the lead cover, with the cap moving slightly off-centre. Accordingly, there are again three variants of the representation, with cover, flintlock and open ignition pan. The flintlock shows that the printer is at its limit, and when the metallic paint is added, it looks a bit washed out in close-up. Here is the lock with just primer, which adheres better. And here is the dimensions-based visualisation. Have fun 🙂 XXXDAn

Thank you druxey for your kind corrections! All the pictures that I have from Victiry´s guns are that bad in quality, that I only was able to see it once I knew what to look for. Here are some better ones from the dutch Rijksmuseum showing the principle (Both pictures are not the same lock!) A TREATISE ON NAVAL GUNNERY by GENERAL SIR HOWARD DOUGLAS, Bart. FOURHT EDITION, REVISED, 1855 Page 397ff SECTION III - ON LOCKS AND TUBES FOR NAVAL ORDNANCE. 370. The general introduction of flint-locks into the British naval service resulted from the efficient firing of the " Duke," of 98 guns, on a celebrated occasion, that ship having been previously fully equipped with gun-locks by her captain, the late Sir Charles Douglas, who commanded her from April, 1778, till November, 1781, when he was removed into the " Formidable," as Captain of the Fleet, in which ship he likewise intro duced these and other improvements in naval artillery. The equipment of the "Duke" with flint-locks to all her guns was effected in a manner so characteristic of the ardour and energy of that enlightened and scientific officer, that the author trusts he may be excused for adverting to it in a brief statement of facts, which will, perhaps, be deemed somewhat interesting by the pro fessional reader. On Sir Charles Douglas's appointment to the " Duke," he brought before the Admiralty and the Ordnance several propositions for improving, facilitating, and quickening the service of naval ordnance. The car tridges were at that time all made of paper, which required the operation of worming guns after every discharge, on account of the lower end of a papercartridge remaining generally at the bottom of the bore in a state of ignition. To obviate this, Sir Charles Douglas proposed that the cartridges should be made of flannel. He recommended, and urged repeatedly, the full equipment of his ship with flint-locks, by which the use of the slow-match and the powder-horn for priming might more or less be discontinued ; and as tin tubes would manifestly be dangerous and highly objectionable on the fighting decks of a ship, he recom mended that quill-tubes should be substituted for them. 371. Neither of these propositions was immediately or fully adopted ; paper-cartridges, the match, and the priming-horn continued for some years in general use. It appears by official documents * that no locks were supplied during 1778 to the " Duke" at Plymouth, where she was commissioned in April of that year ; but in the following year she was furnished, at Portsmouth, with two locks for 24-pounders, four locks for 12-pounders, and two for 6-pounders ; total eight locks. Yet the " Duke " was fully equipped with gun-locks in the celebrated victory of the 12th of April, 1782, to which that ship and the other three-deckers, the " Formidable " and the " Namur," so greatly contributed. By what means then had the " Duke," in the previous years, been completed with these important implements ? By Sir Charles Douglas, out of his own funds and by his own energies : he bought a sufficient number of common musket-locks, which being let into pieces of wood, as into the stock of a musket, might then be fastened with iron wire to the guns." He purchased flannels sufficient to make bottoms for paper-cartridges, goose-quills for tubes, and the ingredients necessary to fill and prime them. On Sir Charles Douglas's appointment to be Captain of the Fleet he was succeeded in the command of the " Duke" by Captain, afterwards Lord Gardner ; and, in the battle of the ensuing year, the quick and efficient firing of that ship was so conspicuous and powerful as to enable the gallant Gardner to widen the gap which his leaders had made in the enemy's line, and so open the way for Rodney to pass to a memorable victory. That glorious day settled the question of the locks, by bearing down all further opposition to the introduction of improvements which the prejudices of the time deemed useless and unnecessary refinements ;* but that battle having likewise put an end to the maritime part of the war, no measures for the supply of locks to naval ordnance appear to have been taken till 1790, when " brass locks'" of a new pattern were provided, and continued in general use throughout the late war. These no doubt contributed greatly to the efficiency of our practice, to the accuracy and rapidity of which all French authors attribute the superiority of our gunnery in the actions and battles of the early part of the war, the French not having adopted locks till 1800. 372. The flint-locks of the pattern of 1790 remained in general use till 1818, when the double-flinted lock, likewise adopted by the French, of the author's invention, a drawing of which was given in the former editions of this work, was ordered for general use in the navy. [...]

Thank you very much druxey. I took the orientation from the picts of Victory´s guns, but without this hint the side shift wasn´t to realise for me. Too much black barrel around 😉 No problem to move to the side. The advantage of printing. So the artefact of the cover in Thorsminde also could be complet? I always guessed that one side broke off. But seen the assymetrical position it could be still intact? XXXDAn

Thank you druxey! Looks to be worth a visit 🙂 Here some more links: https://bucklershard.co.uk/ https://bucklershard.co.uk/shipyard-trust-launches/ https://bucklershard.co.uk/attractions/bucklers-hard-museum/ https://bhshipyardtrust.org.uk/ (under construction)

Ok, let's talk about something we guys know more about: ze big guns. Or at least we think we do. In the past, model guns were mostly rotational pieces, and only larger-scale models were retrofitted with details such as ignition pans and coats of arms. These were custom-made or complex castings. With the printing the excuse of the effort involved no longer applies. That's why I finally finished the new guns for my Victory. And here starts a new point of discussion about how to present the guns. Not saying that the classical we usually show is wrong, but as an opener for mind and possibilities. Just to stir things up 😉 The version we usually show is with an exposed touch hole and without a tompion is simply how we know these things from museums and recovered from wrecks long time ago. But in real seafaring life this appearance was probably rather rare, it was probably mostly different: There are enough orders, records and wreck finds that describe the guns as most of the times ‘loaded’ during the period of 1800 and before. This also means that the powder charge stored inside the barrel had to be protected from water and moisture. For this purpose, tompions, simple wooden turned parts, were used as plugs at the front. They can be seen in many paintings, mostly white. The sensitive touch hole also had to be protected. Lead covers were used for this purpose, which protected the touch hole of dirt and, if the gun was equipped with one, the gunlock, and above all protected the hole against fire and sparks. When the gun was made ready for battle, the tompion was removed as late as possible and the cover of the touch hole was removed also only shortly before the shot was to be fired. Thus, in real life, there were mainly the following 2 conditions: - Stowed, lashed down, run out with cover over the touch hole or gunlock and with tompion - Shortly before firing, without cover over the touch hole or gunlock and without tompion Here we have the triad of touch hole, gunlock and cover in comparison: And here are the five gun sizes required for the Victory: 32-pounder medium lower battery deck, 24-pounder medium middle battery deck, 12-pounder long upper battery deck, 12-pounder medium aft, 12-pounder short quarterdeck. The classic ‘pure’ representation with open touch hole With gun lock. It is worth considering that the tompion could also be set if the enemy is not yet within firing range. And with cover and tompion. I adapted the colour of the lead covers to the artefacts from Thorsminde. The same applies to the fastening holes. This also results in the rear fastening via the ring, as all other types of fastening would slip off. The colours of the tompions – natural wood, white, red – are taken from the artefacts and paintings and should, of course, be uniform on the model. The wood-coloured ones were probably the most common, as the tompions were carried as prefabricated spindles in sets of about a dozen and simply sawed off as needed. I doubt that they were painted every time. Side discussion: Also this involves in my humble opinion the presentation of the tackles. If stowed it is clear that those have to be properly set to hold the gun, plenty of drawings show this. If ran out but gun secured (Touch hole and muzzle protected) those tackles should be secured too but probably not laying on deck. If ran out for "clear for action“ (touchhole and possibly muzzle protected) the tackles should be open, but secured on the carriage, the free ends in a way that it wont become knotted. And just straight before the shot: no muzzle, gunlock or vent hole open and the tackles be held by the crew. Is there any place for the nice spirals we like to show, especially with an tackle not made fast? Try this in real life and the guns will run amok at the first wave ... To sum the theme up, here are two scale pictures of the barrels shown above 🙂 Enjoy 🙂 XXXDAn

Next the barrels were continued. The number of hoops is interesting here. As an average layman, one would assume 4. However, Nelson's brandy leaguer shows a completely different number, and the double hoops are particularly interesting. I found several references to the fact that larger barrels have a double hoop at the top. So once again, nothing with once programming 1 barrel and scaling it to all sizes 😉 Each barrel format is unique, and I have attempted to develop a reasonably plausible number of hoops. After all, a 675-litre Leaguer weighs over 0.8 modern tonnes, so there is a considerable amount of self-weight to bear, especially during transport when dynamic forces are added. The result was a nice family picture: The 1.55-metre-high, 104-cm-diameter tun is the largest in the series, but I have not yet come across it in a maritime context, probably because it is too unwieldy. The smallest here is the firkin, with a capacity of 9 gallons, a height of 56 cm and a diameter of 43 cm. The powder keg on the Invincible has almost identical dimensions and, in my opinion, is a firkin with special hoops. The picture clearly shows that the size range of the different sizes could be reasonably accurate. Using this overview picture, I was able to compare the shapes of the different sizes. And here are the next samples of the barrels. The differentiation between the various number of hoops results in a pleasant visual impression for eye of the beholder 🙂 The selected sizes are, in descending order, leaguer, puncheon and hogshead, as these are always mentioned when stowing the hold, plus the kilderkin as it is a basic measure and the smaller firkin for boats and as the probable size of powder barrels. The stacking in the boats is based on historical data, so special launches for first and second rates could hold 14 to 16 leaguers, which is a mere 8 to 10 modern tonnes in weight. I dare to doubt how much freeboard was left, but perhaps there wasn't as much heavy stuff in there as liquids ... XXXDAn

And we continued with the lugger-rigged version of the large launch. First came the masts. I took the measurements from W. E. May's summary, but they also correspond fairly closely to the French measurements. The strength of the lugger rig is its simplicity. Insert the pre-rigged mast, hook in the pairs of backstays on both sides with the standing end, hook the tackles in the middle, and belay the free end. The halyard of the sail is already sheared through in the masthead, so the sail is immediately hoisted, the tack, sheet and brail are secured, and off you go. In my scrap box, I charmingly found a sample from my sandwich sail tests from 2017 – yes, I actually keep such things for that long – and the sizes I need fit quite well, even avoiding the messy areas. I developed the material back then to combine the advantages of fabric as an elastic material and paper for a more true-to-scale surface. Thin strips of restoration repair paper are ironed onto both sides of a layer of silk to create a sandwich that resembles closely the visual properties of the sails. It is also unbeatable for folding and stowing. However, at the time, I did not yet have a model that was ready for me to use it on ... I took the angles from Steel's drawings, but I had to mark the radius at the bottom – one of the differences to French sails – with a pen and thread, as the radius is larger than my templates. I shortened the furled sails by approx. 25%, i.e. below the lower reefing band, which I had also omitted for this purpose. The surrounding leech was glued on and the eyes for the brails were added. If necessary, I'll even clamp a sail in a vice 😉 And then it was time to fold and fiddle around. And then it was adjusted to fit the storage space. Together with the masts in place looks quite cheerful and full. Two barrels have also found their way there. Who can find them? It's great to finally be able to use the sails developed eight years ago in a model myself. Some modeling friends have already impressively demonstrated their potential. Thank them for that. And I'm already testing out the next crazy ideas for my boat collection... XXXDAn

More on the casks soon :-) In the meantime, a whole small flotilla has emerged from my 32-foot launch 🙂 The 7-oared pinnace is in a race with the fully loaded 14-oared launch, which has to pull the fully loaded launch with the water barrels. Next to it is another boat with fully stowed equipment and one where the launch is helping to weigh anchor. And of course a setting with set sails. Always the same hull, but with different contents and task each time. More on the individual deployment options soon. It remains exciting. Here is the comparison one more time ... ... of the single-banked pinnace with the rowers always sitting on the opposite side ... ... and the double-banked 32-foot launch. And another little tip on the technical side: And I always propagate not to cold bend resin parts. After painting, the oars got quite a bend in the shaft. That's why I briefly dipped the parts in hot water. You could really see how the parts straightened out in the water within 2-3 seconds by themselves. Like memory metals, really strong 🙂 The bent parts at the top and the hot-bathed and straightened parts at the bottom. The fact that the far left side still has a bend is not a mistake, but the curved rudder blades of the small and medium-sized boats. XXXDAn And I still have 2 boat shells. ... what do I do now, what do I do now ...

Hello Sbdyess5, have a look there 🙂 XXXDAn

At the same time, work continued on the boats, especially on the 32-foot launch. The nice thing about printing is that you can simply repeat, so suddenly there were 4 hulls in front of me. What am I supposed to do with them again? The little devilish voice inside me then came immediately: Build it! Build it! Well, that's the way it happened. Here are the 4 steps of the interior: Priming black to prevent flashes, dark brown for the inner body, thin black ink for depth and usage, and white drybrush to bring out the textures again. On the other hand, I painted the interior parts with a lighter shade of brown, inked and brushed them to emphasise them a little. It could also have been interpreted as different wood. But when I looked at it ... ... and compared it with the first launch at the front in a completely lighter colour ... ... it looked too much like a toy to me, and the dafi had to do what it does best - tear it down! - and everything flew out again ... ... and the inside of the boats has been coloured lighter. Fits much better now http://www.shipmodels.info/mws_forum/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif Here is a picture showing how the barrels fit - that's easily over 7 tonnes of weight -, in the middle the rowing version, and the third one still without thwarts , where you can see the height of the stretchers above the inner floor. Then you can also see that the rowers' feet would otherwise have been hanging in the air and intensive pulling would not have been so successful. So that I don't always get the thwarts mixed up, I have given them markings on the underside. The stretchers too, by the way. XXXDAn

And once again I've made a mistake. This drawing from 1815 shows the loading of the large launch with barrels of drinking water. And so, of course, I had to know how big the barrels were in order to put them in my launch. These large barrels are so-called Leaguers with the equivalent of 480 liters. So with wood, they weigh over half a ton. And then 14 of them in the boat, making well over 7 tons. The research was somewhat difficult, as the volumes are often mentioned, but not the exact dimensions. In the meantime, I have researched the sizes of the whole family more or less reliably, so that I was able to start on the models. Here are the 3 sizes for the model: Leaguer 480 liters, Puncheon 318 liters, Hogshead 200 liters and a small powder keg. Each in three parts, as I don't want the supports to be visible as usual. Family picture with avatar. And after priming and inking came the challenge: blackening the hoops. At the back right was with the brush. On a good day, I get a few hoops, but then it's all over. Okay, that wasn't a particularly good day anyway. So I tried the back left with a felt-tip pen, which was better, but still uneven and above all an unpleasant metallic-reddish sheen. And in front a completely different approach, because I remembered that the prints are made of black resin. I quickly tried to see if sanding the hoops worked, and lo and behold ... ... it works like a charm! The powder keg was given its copper hoops and light-colored withy rings and joined the others. No iron hoops on purpose, because they could cause sparks and that would be really stupid. The copper is also nicely embedded between the withy rings so that it doesn't stick out. There are wonderful artifacts showing this, recovered from the HMS Invincible, which sank in 1758. And that brings us very close to what I wanted 🙂 XXXDAn

I had finally found the time to finish off a few little things around the stove. It was slowly becoming what I wanted http://www.shipmodels.info/mws_forum/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif Here are two colour versions, one with a classic red brick floor and one with the typical southern English yellow-beige floor covering. And here in the detail shots you can also see the warming trays that could be hung on the handrail of the cooker. Of course, the stove also includes the kitchen area. I have chosen the wickerwork that can be seen on the contemporary model of the Princess Royal and others. The whole thing is a cute little kit of 22 parts. The drive chain is twisted copper wire and the rail is bent wire, for which there is a template. Here are a few more details: The base plate with catch tray and tube for the fresh air supply from the deck below ... ... the stove body ... ... the holders for the skewers ... ... the distiller with all its attachments ... ... ... and the cowl, all that's missing is the round cover plate against rain and storm. As usual, the ensemble was finished with a little diluted ink and a white drybrush, and the metal parts with a little graphite. XXXDAn PS: And it took me a while before I had the courage to print the warming trays directly and completely. But all the attempts to glue the holders on with holders were just horrible in the result ...

That is what I used too 🙂 XXXDAn

Waiting for Godot ... Since the geometry of the boats is highly complex, the printer has to run at the highest resolution, and that takes time ... That's why I used the time in between to finish a few other things, or rather to give them a final polish. All the bitts on the upper deck have now been joined by the bitts on the upper battery deck, which hold all the halyards of the main mast. Big strong things with nice rollers in the base. Here with the swifel pump in between. You can already admire them in the open heart of my Vic. The matching deck beam supports. Cheaper by the dozen. A bit of drybrushing here too to modulate the shape. Plus the small kit of the riding bitts and what you can be done with it. And I would like to take this opportunity to out myself again: As much as I like and need high-quality tools, but often nothing beats the basics! - A sheet of sandpaper on the table and you can make smooth and even strokes when sanding - Sandpaper stuck to wooden sticks using double-sided tape allows sanding tools to be cut to the exact width of the workpiece using the width of the sticks. Some of the sticks shown here are exactly the width of the gunports of my Constitution. - Right-angled blocks facilitate sanding at a 90° angle. And when the paper is blunt, a new one is put on. And here is the guessing game of what else I have prepared 😉 Best regards, Daniel

As a wrap-up here 2 casks from St. George wrecked 1812 nearby Thorsminde.

Thank you Keith, I always thought I remember all discussiond here, this one slipped my mind. Thank you for redirecting me there. And druxey as always extra thanks, as this is the exact answer I was looking for. And as always the answer is offen nearer than one thinks, in this case exactely 153 cm to the right, seen from the from the center of my working focus up to its place in the book shelf (I measured). Should have grabbed TFFM earlier 🙂 Funny enough, if one resaerches for the leaguer, there are popping up so many measures and not one is equal to the other, most of them much more giving spans of mesures or volume than an exacte size. Anyway the standardization was an important factor, otherwise there would have been chaos in the hold ... XXXDAn

For a long time I have been looking for exact information on the sizes and shapes of Royal Navy barrels from around 1800. For the first time, I was able to roughly extract the dimensions of the big water casks directly from a contemporary source: a Leaguer for approx. 150 gallons of water, 4.5 feet long and 3 feet in diameter, easily measured by the scale underneath the keel. To what extent were these barrel sizes standardized, what sizes were exactely used for what purpose and what were the special shapes? Are there any contemporary sources? As my 34 ft launch is about the same size, I could not resist a test. And it really fits surprisingly well 🙂 But as always: questions upon questions ... XXXDAn

Thank you druxey for the addition, very appreciated! I already realised while building that the way of simply putting a block underneath the stretcher is not sufficiant. I already found ways of fixing the strechers the same way as the thwarts in some plans in contemporary plans in RMG. Also here a modern model I photographed in an exhibition in Rochefort in 2018. Unfortunately I can´t read the name of the maker any more.

Thank you for the news that it is made metall, I thought by the looks to be plastic ... forth For the scaling of the diameters no problem, use some Scotch film, Tesa Film or masking tape wrapped around to bring it to the next size, should do the trick 🙂 So 3.87 mm becomes a almost neat 4 mm. XXXDAn

Yes that is a boat of the Vic in P. With an inner deck convenient for todays rower 😉 XXXDAn