dafi

The material described by Mark is the material from Tiffany. I used for my Vic. Here are some tests I did with Rosie the riveter ;-) ... the outer lines with 0,75 mm distance, inside with 1,5 mm. I also found some nice hints in a swiss forum about the different shades of copper: Fresh having a copper brownish color, dark brown in harbour, on air greenish, where there are is abrasive power of water while sailing, it turns pink. Found all these colors on photographs. So I tried some things out with casein paint: Coppering not too old, no weed yet, just started sailing, means brown bottom, waterline pink and above green ... ... on cruise the brown turning more pinkish, also reduction of green ... ... and the brown almost disappeared. Here both last versions side by side for better comparisson. Cheers, Daniel

Gentlemen, thank you very much for all your input, it is pleasure to follow :-) My basic thpought of having more people being able to work is still the strongest reason for this setup. But the cisterns and the outlets shown still puzzle me to bits ;-) What Mark and Druxey guess would makes sense. Having the pump in the lower deck being worked with cranks on both sides and the pump in the middle deck also being manned on both sides would give the double amount of people being able to pump this resulting in a higher speed and therefor more water being raised. Still puzzling is here the two cisterns and also that later on both pumps were made reach the lower deck. All the drawings in NMM show these setups and dales on all the cisterns (if shown). Are there any other models known like the Princess with this setup? Cheers, DAniel

Yes, even better ones :-) Cheers, Daniel

... go to a show and tell ... ... day two ... First we had to calm down Alexander, who had a breakdown after the secrets about the quality of his Sphynx was revealed the day before. Now he stands there with shattered dreams, on the pile of shards that is nothing more than a worthless and substandard model, now filled with the hankies of his bitter tears. I always told him to do a bit of research before starting to build. At least a little bit, a tiny bit. And better he would have done the scuppers of the decks properly and not just faked, as now the deck is stained with plenty of teardrops that could not drain away ... http://modelshipworl...-12#entry258120 And dear Norbert was told, to better put planks, as the water could penetrate through the gaps in between the frames. They even did not accept the far-fetched excuse, that these were the scuppers needed to drain out the water that came over and in by the hatches ... Especially Joachim´s Vasa was judged to be unrealistic, as it is missing a very elementary part, the pirat plank that all ships of those days were fitted with ... ... and now he stands there and tries to find out where it fits. Just Dieter, he was fine, as it was discovered immediately, that that little boat is an easy to build snap-together kit ... ... never build a ship, do not worry, that´s easy, just tell me where to get the kit and I will do even better :-) Just Ingo, he was clever, he gleamed in the brilliance of his latest build :-) So we really enjoyed thoroughly, DAniel

And always a highlight for me, Revell´s Cutty. I simply love those hybrid builds, that make wonders out of a heap of plastic ! And here some proud ship builders :-) Kingsley Phantom-Robert, aka Tarjack the boneman ... http://modelshipworld.com/index.php/topic/1749-hmy-royal-caroline-1749-by-tarjack-made-from-bone-m-1-50/?hl=%2Bbone+%2Bcaroline ... my treassssssssure! THE dafi End day one :-)

PS: Oh yeah, some models were there too ;-)

This weekend, lifestyle trade show at Stuttgart, near my home. And guess what, the friends from Arbeitskreis historischer Schiffbau (Work group historical ship building) had a small booth in the hobby hall :-) So there was to be tinkered publicly ... ... talked ... ... to be engrossed into building ... ... discussed ... ... looked up ... ... conversated ... ... immersed even more into model building ... ... and for a change some chatted and gossiped. Robert explained the esprit of his Phantom ... ... while poor Joachim had to listen for half an hour to this dear man who explained to him, why Alexander´s Sphynx is not relly well done - to put it politely ;-) Joachim: http://modelshipworld.com/index.php/topic/836-amerigo-vespucci-by-schiffebastler-mantua-model-scale-184-italien-sail-training-ship-build-1931/ How will Alex react? How will he deal with this truth? See day two ... Sphinx: http://modelshipworld.com/index.php/topic/410-hms-sphynx-by-alex-m-scale-148-english-20-gun-frigate-as-build-1775/page-12#entry258120

@Siggi Thank you, I know this drawing very well, but never realised the partitions of the cabins ... ... blind fox I am ... In todays Vic, the partition of the gunroom starts aft the mizzen mast, most drawings I see make me believe it was in front of it, as seen in the you drawing you showed. @bart430 One deck up, it really was done like this. But not sure about the gunroom. XXXDAn

Thank you Siggi, you placed the cabins over the guns, whereas the plans show them inbetween. Perhaps this placement was just a mere symbol on the plan and the actual cabin might have been something completely different. Also the plans suggest the guns in a vertical position towards the hull, but one could also imagine a position alongside fore/aft lashing like in the wardroom. XXXDAn

My thinking, too big to be removed on sea. Druxey, thank you for the link, it fitted for some research we are doing in our german forum! XXXDAn

We once had a discussion about this cage in our german forum. Achilles gave the hint there that in the thesis from Steere 2004 (The Evolution of Decorative Work on Englisch Men of War) it is guessed, that it was probably only a trial. http://repository.tamu.edu/bitstream/han....pdf?sequence=1 pages 67/68 Cheers, Daniel

Thank you very much Druxey, Pat and jud. Actually NMM shows several plans indicating the positioning there. http://collections.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/87585.html http://collections.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/79874.html The tiller does not go to the outer extends of the sweep as the max angle was 30° (?) to each side. Cheers, Daniel

And again one of my small oupsys ... #902 Building the gunroom I placed first the canvas bulkheads as partition against the main gun deck aft the mizzen mast. In this area was thought to hold 3 cabins each side, starboard aft the gunner´s one. But once build I was happy that I had the rudder working ... ... as it showed like the bulkheads collided nicely with the tiller. First try with integrated guns was not successful either, just worked for the gunner´s cabin. Should the guns be placed in an fore-aft direction like in the ward room? All drawings found in NMM showing this detail displayed cabins that were not including the guns, thus leaving this area free. Also the AOTS Bellona - even though only a two decker showed clearly that my first cabins were too big and should leave the guns free. Ok another trial - do not ask of how many - managed to place three tiny cabins in this area without obstructing the tiller. On the deck beam a warrant officer´s sleeping cod to show the dimensions needed. And now my usual questions: - could this be plausible? - were at this special day in 1805 at 17:35 o´clock AM only loose hanging canvas bulkheads used or was this a light construction using wooden frames with canvas? Cheers, Daniel

Always a pleasure to catch up here! Thank you for showing, Daniel

And another version found in DSC01116 Mark´s great pictures of the HMS Endymion 44 guns of 1779 http://modelshipworld.com/index.php/gallery/image/9076-dsc01116/ The chain goes up beside the rudder

A even more detailed description adding to the link Evan gave was given by Chapman in our german Forum: http://usscm.blogspot.de/2013/03/in-bag-sailors-and-their-sea-bags.html Thank you Jörg! Daniel

Thank you tons Evan, it is always fun to see more pieces of the puzzle pop up :-) "The clothing bags issued to the seamen were painted black to waterproof them, and stand in contrast to the unpainted personal bags so often richly decorated by the owners." 1812 to 1829 This gives me - as usual - some more questions: - from when on were they painted? - something special for special countries? - my understanding for the Royal Navy around 1800 was that the sailors had to provide their own equipment. This would suggest to me a very diverse appearence in the kits. Cheers, Daniel

Thank you all, you confirm some my thoughts :-) The plans from the decks in NMM show quite clearly that there are no two tubes and threre is no offset for the second level - both levels look to be perfectly in line. My personal guess is that the cistern from the two storeys pump has a watertight "passing through" cistern that could be opened if necessairy. if the cranc of the "normal" pump that leads through this cistern is just passing through or if it also drives a coq wheelis pure guess from my side. But interesting, that no further technical evidence so far is to be found ... XXXDan

A long time ago on the research for the pumps of my Vic I realised that all drawings of first and second rates at NMM from a certain date on show at least two of the four chain pumps reaching the middle deck. This started about 1760 to 1780. All the drawing showing details have a cistern on the lower deck even for the pumps reaching the middle deck, mostly showing something that appears like an exhaust for a dale or hose. From about 1810 both pairs of pumps reached the middle deck, both having a cistern and an "exhaust" on both decks. Searching for quite a while already I just found one source apart from the drawings - the model of the Princes Royal. Here one pair of pump is reaching the upper deck, also showing the cistern, but no details of the mechanism is revealed. The only reason so far I can see is that the double amount of man could man the handles. But no idea whatsoever how the technical side worked. Where these one chain running though the lower deck (as it seems to me) or were those two different chains for each pump? Was the cistern on the lower deck a water tight "passing through" cistern? As usual - question over question ... I just add some pictures of what I mean, some drawings out of NMM and of the Princess Royal. XXXDAn

Here are more infos http://collections.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/567.html Enjoy, Daniel

What a beauty :-) Cheers, DAniel

And on we go with some trifles :-) I was wondering how to create furniture without it looking like dollhouse toys. Ok, off I went to find out. Luckily I was successful, only have to stick to the true dimensions :-) Here the substructure, fast done and quite stable. Contemporary drawings always show the tables direction fore aft, so I displayed them over the massive partner of the sternpost. Like this canvas cabins could be erected on the ship´s sides. The openings on the deck are no litter bins but aft there are the two scuttles of the ventilation trunks of the hold and in the front the scuttle for the bread room and in the middle the one for the Lady´s hole, means the stuff of the gunner. The gratings are flipped open for better ventilation. Here we already have the name of the area, the gun room. The gunner had his quarters here and was then highest warrent officer in this area.He had a canvas cabin on starboard and larboard was the one from the chaplin. The area also was the mess for the warrent officers, junior lieutenants, marine officers and first class volunteers. Here also the chaplin taught the junior midshipmen. The Area was separeted from the rest of the deck by means of canvas covers. Still have to redo the canvas blinds, but they work well as layout separations. I hope, I got the details right, cheers Daniel PS: Could not resist to show the Tic Tac in place :-)

At the moment I am busy to breed some true to scale weevils for the biscuits served. Could be successful :-) XXXDAn

Thank you Lawrence and Popeye :-) @Popeye: Have a closer look at the last two pictures: As "exercising the great guns" is in progress, the cupboards are taken down :-) Just the marks are seen on the wall. XXXDAn

http://www.zazzle.de/i_liebe_schafe_haferl-168594458353144705 ;-) XXXDAn