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I use old broken Drills to hold them :-) #374 XXXDAn

Thank you Kevin, it is cleared now :-) Cheers, Daniel

Thank you Sirs (and Madames?), very appreciated! Here are some hints towards the figures #516 XXXDAn

Thank you Mark :-) But this was the closest I could do about his face in 1:100 ;-) The nice thing on the Vic is, that some of the personalities are still traceable today. A very interesting family this was the Rivers, father and son on Trafalgar. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W._H._R._Rivers See "Family background" William Rivers, born 1755 in Bermondsey, London, dies 1817 Ships Triumph / Gunner 27-02-1781 bis 17-12-1781 Conquistatador / Able Seaman 12-03-1782 bis 29-07-1782 Triumph / ? 14-10-1782 bis 09-12-1782 Triumph / Gunner 10-12-1782 bis 30-11-1787 Barfleur / Gunner 01-12-1790 bis 30-05-1790 Victory / Gunner 31-05-1790 bis 25-01-1812 Battle honors Battle of Hyeres 13-07-1795 2nd battle at Cap St. Vincent 14-02-1797 Trafalgar 21-10-1805 A nice essay onto the duties of a gunner ROYAL NAVY GUNNERS IN THE FRENCH REVOLUTIONARY AND NAPLOEONIC WARS He also wrote a diary/book about his work, that often is quoted: HMS Victory: First-Rate 1765 von Iain Ballantyne Nelson's Victory: 101 Questions and Answers About HMS Victory von Peter Goodwin That is why I am looking for this source out of the Royal Naval Museum: William Rivers (1755-1817), gunner on HMS Victory: gunnery notes (Acc 1998/41) Does anybody have any copies of that? XXXDAn

Thank you Robin, Jason, Dave and Keith. @Keith: There are two ways :-)

If one is unsure, best get a specialist to sort things out. And I could not have found anybody better :-) My I present, Mr William Rivers, Gunner of the Victory since 1790*. Aged 50 he is already one of the oldest on board and lives since 15 years on the starboard aft end of the lower deck. he told me, that his nice wooden peace-time cabin was replaced by a batten-canvas construction as it facilitates removal during war times. But as he had some materials and documents to keep, he was the only one to get a real door. The gunroom also was separated by a batten-canvas construction from the lower deck. Also the cabin underneath the weep was done this way, the middle cabins of the gunroom and the two extra cabins in front of it were pure canvas hanging from the beams. Through Mr River I had als the joy and honor to meet Chaplain Reverend Alexander Scott. In his typical black suit he took me to the so called school table where he held some lesons for the boys and midis. While Mr Rivers tries to circle around the group, holding his hat in the hand as the max headroom is very poor, this scene is watched attentively by two 2nd Lieutenant of the Marines, Mr Lewis Rotely and Mr Lewis Reeves. Just some impressions, seen from the gundeck ... ... our fancy group ... ... and Mr River, coming out of his cabin and trying to squeeze his way through. Cheers, Daniel *(1793?)

Here some contemporary drawings of the "short" pumps (Still have to look for the source) Parts of Victorys pump (date unknown) REL0450 http://collections.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/63556.html Indus 1839 ZAZ6853 http://collections.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/86644.html Thetis 1817 REL0407 http://collections.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/63513.html

If I remember well Phil Reed also uses painted paper for coppering his models. Period Ship Modelmaking: An Illustrated Masterclass Modelling Sailing Men-Of-War: An Illustrated Step-By-Step Guide XXXDAn

great work! Cheers, Daniel

Phantasticoooooo!!! Wonderfully build with an extremly high skill level and still it breathes life :-) Thank you for sharing the ride! A true masterpiece, DAniel

What kind of ship, what year, what nation, what temperature of the water ... :-) XXXDAn,

There were three options for the cabins: wood, canvas on a wooden frame and pure canvas like a shower curtain. All three versions of course were taken down in case of clearing the decks, but this is well known from the captains and admiral room bulkheads, as seen too in MaC ;-) For the canvas I used washi paper for model planes, primed with clear varnish and put several thin layers of white and light rust paint (white paint with rusty stirring screws). Applied both sides of course. For the gunners cabin I opted for the semifixed cabin with canvas on a wooden frame, as he surely had some material and documents to be kept off the reach of curious hands. The other cabins probably will be the shower curtains, just lets see how this works in the model. Funnily the transparency turned out just like I wanted it too :-) Took the cardboard template out and fitted the wooden frame accordingly onto the canvas ... ... opened the door ... ... fixed the bit in place and the gunner might move in. For sure he still will bring some chests, his kit and some bedding stuff to satisfy his nesting instinct and to feel home and cosy :-) Also the first lieutenant has already his place fixed ... ... while those two little shipyard workers still discuss on how to proceed further ... Cheers, Daniel

And here comes another round of cardboard dummies with refined partitioning before I move on to produce the final ones. As the Vic was an admirals ship in 1805 there were a lot of extra personal on board. This made me opt for a forth cabin as shown on Royal Sovereign in 1807. ZAZ0083 http://collections.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/79874.html XXXDAn

And here comes another round of cardboard dummies with refined partitioning before I move on to produce the final ones. As the Vic was an admirals ship in 1805 there were a lot of extra personal on board. This made me opt for a forth cabin as shown on Royal Sovereign in 1807. ZAZ0083 http://collections.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/79874.html XXXDAn

I think one reason for the bad documentation is that that system was only needed about two dozen times in about 100 years - that is about the number of three deckers in the Royal Navy from 1750 on ... But one could also see a development in the display. It started perhaps as a mere longer chain to the upper deck to allow more people as seen in ZAZ0339 Royal Princess. It became more and more encapsulated for security sake but especially to become less messy as water could drop back to the cistern without landing on the decks. Next steps could have been the second extension. And perhaps the lower cistern to be watertight and a cistern atop for reasons that we do not guess yet? XXXDAn

I think this is what you mean and what also is my suspicion :-) XXXDAn

@ Mark, I have updated the article above. Could those "hexagon things" be the upper part of ZAZ0216? Thanks for the help! Just some left-overs from above article ... Queen Charlotte 1790; ZAZ0160 http://collections.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/79951.html ZAZ0159 http://collections.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/79950.html

Hello Mark, thank you, I am also strongly convinced about those three blue ones being elm tree pumps. And I am with you ... "Those hexagon things on the upper.... I have no idea. " ;-) But exactly above the lower cisterns ... ... just handles and coq-wheels missing like the lower deck? XXXDAn

Here are some more interesting details: The detail mentioned from Mark on Princess Royal 1773 as model ... ... and as drawing in NMM ZAZ0339 ... http://collections.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/80130.html ... with an interesting detail: See also ZAZ0348 for the same detail. Anybody with a better resolution? http://collections.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/80139.html Also Sandwich 1759 ZAZ0494 http://collections.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/80285.html ZAZ0496 http://collections.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/80287.html The same seen on Duke 1785 ZAZ0219 http://collections.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/80010.html ZAZ0215 http://collections.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/80006.html ZAZ0216 http://collections.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/80007.html Could possibly be also seen on 'Barfleur' (1768); 'Prince George' (1772) ZAZ0349 http://collections.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/80140.html HMS Britannia (1820); Prince Regent (1823); ZAZ4908; http://collections.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/84699.html Queen Charlotte 1810 http://collections.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/79809.html ZAZ0018 HMS Hibernia 1804 ZAZ0012 http://collections.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/79803.html HMS Nelson PAH9223 http://collections.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/149170.html And interesting too, the spanish Salvador del Mundo ZAZ0042 http://collections.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/79833.html

Funny enough I just prepared a post parallel to yours in our german forum towards this topic, thank you Mark :-) If one looks long enough one can find wondrous things in well known sources ... Here is a picture I posted a long time ago when I was dealing with the pumps in my build #157 . It shows the draughts of the repair in 1788 and clearly indicates the cisterns in the two decks: Also I detected some marks exactly in the positions the elm tree pumps had to be (blue circles). But not two of them like today - in the lower and upper deck - no there were three. As today one pump is situated in the upper deck I supposed the one on this deck missing in the drawing (green circle) Lately I realised something on a well known picture: http://collections.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/66743.htm SLR0782; Scale: 1:24. A midship sectional model of the 110-gun first rate ship HMS Queen (1839) Do you see it, do you see it?!? One pump (light blue) goes to the lower deck and two go to the middle deck, none to the upper deck, just as seen in the drawing of 1788. ... very interesting ... ... and do you see more!? What are those octagonal double bits always on to of one cisterne? Fore pump ... ... aft pump. Usually ships of that class used to have both chain pumps reaching the upper deck. And ... no handles or wheels shown ... Questions over questions - it stays puzzling :-) XXXDAn PS: Mark, you are welcome, and thanks biting the bait ;-)

... or toss them over board ;-) XXXDAn

Look I just cleared for action ;-) Not better or worse than any other battle station :-) XXXDAn

Thank you Druxey and wq ! @wq Those partitions were removable, sometimes nothing more than sail cloth hanging but giving a tiny bit of privacy. In earlier days, these partitions were wooden ones with panels and well situated over the whole gundeck ... At times of Trafalgar those were mere cloth or cloth on a frame, easy to bring to the hold or even to toss them over board - as kept in one of the logs of the ships, I think it was Royal Sovereign. The windows usually are just shown for wardroom - or higher quarters - and not the gunroom. Cheers, Daniel

Here some more research. In AOTS Bellona is nicely shown what can be found everywhere else: The divisions of the wardroom one deck up follow a quite complicated layout and - even though often the guns are fore-aft direction - the guns are always included into the cabin. In opposition all the drawings of the gun room I know show the cabins situated in between the guns, again AOTS Bellona: Here the Victory of 1737 ... ... and the Bedford of 1775 from Lavery ... ... or the Neptune of 1730 with a combination of fix cabins and canvas ones. Here both kind of bulkheads as shown in AOTS Bellona. Then I realised: The size of the cabin has to house one bunk and nothing more! So I has another look at my Vic ... ... build some bunks and see ... ... it fits, the cabins only were ti big before :-) Question over question - could this work?!? So a solution with frame or pure canvas? Both versions are proven, so the choice stays free?!? Grüßle, Daniel

Thank you wq! Longridge describes exactely what is on display today in the ship. There are some documents in the NMM suggesting that the arrangement could have been different in the past. Cheers, DAniel