Heinrich der Seefahrer

14 hours ago, jeff watts said:

thanks heirich , i havent heard of it , but i will look it up to get some tips 

Hello and a nice progress - do you know Dafi's Victory ...and beyond project?

Look in there for any historical questions due to the ship (at the begin of the Trafalgar battle).

Thanks for sharing.

I really do enjoy to view your „hybrid build“, as it gives a plenty of ideas to me what is possible to get the most out of both. 

As I have got no knowledge what ACC is and never used - is it a kind of silikon to join wood and plastic? 

I trink about using CA to join wood and plastic - am I wrong? Can you tell me please what product do you use? 

Hello Michel!

Marvelous work you do! Thank you very much for sharing! 

Best wishes from Berlin, yours Henri

Hello friends of the Heller SR!

The very intersting point is this one: What did the real SOLEIL ROYAL looked like?

So we (as HsH does) need a list of the „disgusting, bare and awefull“ al list of all the Errors, mistakes, lies, wrongs, shortcommings of the Heller SR-kit to the real ship.

So we very much do need a historically correct SOLEIL ROYAL as HsH is going to give to us all in here. Thanks a lot Hubac!!! 

But I would like to point out, that we are still working with half a dozen to ten pictures. ItIallways is globally allways the same we are repeadingly staring at. So what shall we do? I stared to dream about a small data-warehouse in that we store all the information, questions, kit traps and solutions. How can this be managed?

This thread is a real diamant pit of information but no data warehouse. You have always to walk the long way through all the intetsting sides - interesting but timeconsuming, fascinating but a long road to travel.

As I can't offer solutions I'll shut up after asking my questions... ...and duck&cover!

Dear Hubac, thanks for the hint with the two waterline-stripes. I'll keep that in mind.

Raising the CWL is an idea I thought about till I opend the box. The number of a „a solid quater inch“ sounds realistic when we look at the lines and the kit's hull. The best seems to raise it up to the lowest gunwale.

I'll have to figure out several points in and at the hull during the next days or weeks:

As I want to build a baroque like stand for her I'll have to add some inner structure in the hull to rest thewight of the kit on four simple long screws - manteled with a decor element as an enlarged column from the transom or some alegoric figure sculptures.

So I need to establish four strongpoints inside the hull to rest the four srews inside.

This will be under the UD in the empty nowhere of the hull.

There is a typicsl flat area in the lines plan but not with such a sharp borderline. 

Will sanding a bit and adding grooves help to imitate a continious planking?

There are some good reasons to build SR as a WLmodel...

Tje very first is this iceflat area underside!

On the other hand it is an impressive and gorgious sized kit.

The scale for SAINT PHILIPPE is due to  keel length 1:91

Hello friends - the Heller kit has arrived without buildung discription booklet. 🤐And so I'll have to find my way thrpugh the kit by accident & error.

The Ancre book isn't disapperaed is was distroyed by accident- a new one was sent to me today. Very kind of Mr. Berti!!! 

Here the interesting pictures from four SP models shown in Rochefort in Oct.'18... and the Author and his book.

Have fun... I fall in love to her beauty.

Thanks a lot for the introduction into basic ship interieurs - again learns something fundamental.

4 hours ago, yancovitch said:

that gold leaf masterpiece by heinrich......i wonder how large that is.....i think that if i had a choice and support when i was young, i would have loved to have been able to learn to sculpt like that...forget this modern stuff....but i sure can appreciate it!!!

No it isn't my work... but all this gives further details to us.

As these pictures from the Congress international de  modelisme navale -1st naval modelers congress in Rochefort  (18.-21.Oct.2018) very much show is in the first line part-models of the SR.

Now these show to all of us Your decission to use the evergreen sheet for a deep craved sculptural decoration structure was complety right! Look what is done in between 1/48 and 1/36... The barock plastic ship really needs the additive of such structures - you are the pioneer, Hubac!

5 hours ago, paulsutcliffe said:

Sliding doors??

Psul, I thought also in this direction shortly. Also... but by the „working of the wood“ (as we say in Gemany) due to the hyproscopiale ballance a sliding door will be very impractical on a wooden ship.

Also there was a bucket (making it a real {while in Versaills the nobels used any floors corner} WC!!!)  with water. So if this falls everything is wet and nothing will slide anymore.

So sliding door is a very roomsaving and 1st view idea but nothing for a ship wet as a wooden ship of the line.

Sorry for the disapointment... so lets share us these ugly frustration...

The door knob shoud have avoided me from following this path of ideas for a longer time.😭

Thanks a lot @mtaylor for the information - my littel scetchy inlay shows the door, the two decks over and below - and the crush of the door with the upper deck.

And this to show the possibilitys in the transom:

Hello Hubac, I found some new pictures trhgat may be helpful to your project. I'ts a bit tricky to geth them in the large scal on the HDD but (using google and open picture in new tab it will work)

Here the link: http://mnm.webmuseo.com/ws/musee-national-marine/app/collection/record/38531

Such ist bestly done by "Soleil Royal webmuseo" .

Hope that helps and doesn't bring new grey fair to your head - as we say in Germany.

Here for the very end of the year a short and funny little update to the laveratory doors...

Due to the curved hull and walls and due to the deck's form the door can't be opend propperly.

If you are a baroque Rubens-liked person you can't get in!

On 12/29/2018 at 3:53 AM, Wallace said:

Beautiful detail. This just gives us an idea of the workmanship of that era. Thank you for sharing Heinrich. 

No problem - you are very welcome!!!

1 hour ago, Hubac's Historian said:

With the exception of a tallow/lead white for the small portion that will be visible below the waterline, I have found all of the other colors I needed for the upper bulwarks.

 

Although it will be used pretty sparingly, this Holbein ultra-marine was just the right shade that I was looking for.

 

It will be a nice counterpoint to the Cerulean blue - which is probably too vivid a color for this time period, but I prefer it for artisitic reasons.

 

Utrecht is the manufacturer of this irridescent gold.  The ornaments should really pop against the yellow ocher of the frieze lattice.

 

My beakhead bulkhead, the stern and the area between the main deck guns will be done in this red ocher color, with the acanthus escutcheons picked out in yellow ocher, ultramarine blue and the fronds and Royal monogram in gold.

 

I think that the quarter galleries might also feature this red ocher color, but I have not figured out which areas that might look good on, as the QGs cross over the blues of the upper bulwarks. Perhaps the amortisement will be mostly Cerulean blue and red ochre from the main top wale down.  Or, maybe the QGs will be all red or all blue.  The answer will become more clear as I go.

 

My SR will be a vivid riot of color above the top wale.

 

It has been a pleasant holiday season, and I hope to soon get back to the scraping/paint prep of the lower hull.

 

My St. Philippe monograph arrived while I was away, and though I have only skimmed through it - it appears well worth the investment.  I will be very busy in the new year.

The best gold colours I've ever got are from the Citardel series easy to get at Warhammer Shops for little money. No goldcolour has such a fine metallic effect parts in it and there are two types of gold and some very good inks for shadowing. The service level of consulting in the shops is very high. Perchance you find something pritty intersting also for the cabin's interieur.

Your colours look fine. The lighter blue comes realistic...

That's wonderful. In between have you decided to build a vaneere deck?

On 12/27/2018 at 4:52 PM, Hubac's Historian said:

Well, I’m not sure what you are asking, exactly:  The Heller kit is in the scale of 1:100, which works out pretty neatly to 1/8” = 1’.

 

If you are asking what scale this would represent for the Saint Philippe, then one would have to take the actual length and breadth of the Saint Philippe and convert that to a common unit (I know inches and feet, so I would use inches), and divide that by the length of the kit main deck, between stem and sternpost, in inches.  That would give you a reasonable idea of scale.

 

Now, as it relates to my conversion of the Heller kit into her 1689 appearance, I have so far used 1:100 as a guide for scaling my new, scratch-built parts, but I won’t really have much of an idea what scale my broader and longer model is (relative to the known dimensions of SR1), until after I have mounted my hull halves on their flat bottom and built up the transom to the main deck level.

 

Once I get there, I will take measurements between perpendiculars, just for fun, but the answer hardly matters for this model, as it is an impressionistic effort, and not a wholly realistic one.  I just want to see whether my greater breadth and length bring the model closer to scale with the actual ship.  For my purposes, though, 1:100 is a good enough guide.

The SR has by Winfield&Rob erts the following data:

Beware thar the feet and inches are Royal French so a foot is 324.8394mm long or 6.5746 per cent longer. Easier multiplicate with 1.065746 - to be safe I also add the metic lengths.

Length pp (foreward face stempost to aft face sternpost):

164ft/6in - 53.44m

Length keel

142ft/0in - 46.13m

Breadth (outside hull planking):

44ft/6in - 14.46m

Depth in hold

21ft/0in - 6.82m

Hello, perchance you don't recognize this interesting site:

https://www.patrimoine-histoire.fr/Maquettes/SoleilRoyal.htm

Hth, Heinrich

I figured out three new pictures of the SANKT PHILIPPE at Mons 2018...

The decks are very straight and the very importent point seems to be:

At SP gunports don't cut in the gun wales without very aft!

So it might be easier to rebuilt/cutoffandrelocate the wales... 

I think there will be a plenty to be done even if the hull isn't cut in to pices - the partly replacing of the wales and bulkwalks will make some problems on its own.

But lket us walk to something more theoratical.

We have got several pictures of SP's transom floting around in the internet. I cought the oldest one and compared to the Ancre picture of the transom:

The most intersting fact is that the number of gunports under the transom was doubled and beside enclosing the first balkony there were hidden gunports added to incres the  fire power of the weak transom.

A pair of round windows are also added by enclosing the balkony. As far as I understand Mr-Delacroix in L'AMARANTE monography the french nobels didn't allow artillery pices in their "livingrooms" - so the lowest lart of the stem area isn't room for the officers or they changed their mind 53 years later on the building yard of L'AMARANTE ans  51 years later at LE RENOMMEÈ - much more smaller ships than the flagship of the Sun King. So what do you thing? 

Here we have some two level of floor transom - in a very well known original style (perchance it shows the newer/rebuld SP?) I belief the left side of the picture to be an originally Cassieri drawing - it is his style of ink and wash drawing.  On the other hand there are some reconstructions in the web with a typical dark blue but this redrawing doesn't fit with the original skulptural draft...     

...but perhaps I compared the wrong SPs this looks like some coloured copywork..

What is very interesting is to compare the two SP transom drawings with their several interesting differences in detail - the famous Italian sculptor Cassieri - but I don't know if he worked in France when SP was build - I know kim for the decoration of L'AMARANTE in 1747... so the SP on the left side may be a rebuild of the one on the rigth side.

The 1663 SP was a 74 gun ship, rebuilt at Tolulon March '89 till May 90. After the battle of Barfleur (29.May '92) she was beached and burned by the english on the 2nd of June.

So the 2nd SP ist the 90-92 first rang ship I deal with in here, followed by another 74gun ship under Louis XV in 1722 - this my match to Cassieri as sculptorist so the let side may show the 2nd 74 SP we know about or the 3rd SP in all. So the SP I'm going to build is the SPII.

But let me look in some books in between and perhaps I'll find some more answers.

And the technicak drawings are high end toplevel craftmansship.

Behold A for it is all the under transoms parts in min. two perspectives:

13 hours ago, Roger Pellett said:

Considering that ANCRE prides itself on producing historically accurate monographs of age of sail French shipbuilding I cannot understand why they include details, that differ from those for which accurate documentation exists as with the bow headrails and stern quarter carvings shown above.

 

Any thoughts?

 

Roger

Hy Roger Mr Delacroix will hopefully answer a bit more detailled than I can do.

But I estimate that the decoration is certainly a marketing feature from the Italian Rokkoko artist Casselli... and on the other hand the construction of the basic (undecorated) transom is a mathematical result of given data by Ancre. Than (so I do imaginate) the decorational artwork is resized to the transom/over the transom - by both the shipyard and Mr.Delacroix. It is in both times only one interpretation. .  And that I found this error in the sidegalllery is a lucky punch. Other modelbuilders built a masterclass 1/36 model not being aware of this ornamental irregularity... i saw it due to the fact that I live near Sans Souci and have had visited hunderts of southgerman barqoue churches and rokkoko mansions during my youth time.

So let us be sportsman's fair wait for Mr.Delacroix's point of view.