Heinrich der Seefahrer

13 hours ago, tkay11 said:

Have you given up on this model?

 

Tony

Hy Tony,

 

It is on hold - due to the Heller project.

 

I have to restart the hull.

There are severat parts of the decoration we know very detailed: i

These angels symbolism for the Renommeé (as I do know from the Ancre-book about RENOMMEÉ-1744) are placed on the same part of the decor.

 

 

Neptunus is also on his place the tree ended spear/triend is a challenging feature in 1/90. And the figures around/holding him look quite similar.

 

Thetis with the fillhorn symbolised the land and the wealth of the sea trade in one. The coral crown is proof for this wealthy.she is supportet by a Triton and here way to sit changed from the inkscetck to the built version.

 

 

The King himself:

placed above the two godnesses sits enthroned between two bound pirates/ barbarians. (The only battle RL-1668 fought were against mediteranian/Algerian pirates) and shows the real meaning of the RL-1668 the sea power in the Atlantic and Mediterranean.  The King looks allways to Thetis as hope for trade and groth.

 

Over the king himselfe only the symbols of his own rennommee or the French glory - from his point of view one and the same thing. Doubling himself and suggesting unpretentiousness in once... a typical baroque way of behavior.

 

Smaller structural elements:

The seahorses under the transom look very similar also the girlandes/swags do repeat. So there is very little to change. But we have a great prototype for all over the hull.

 

So these elements we can used from the later drawings also without any doubt and transfered to the as build/as planed vesion. The taller appearance looks more interesting than the breadth bringing kind of build... the Dutch way of building was still in the background... this is an interesting question.

 

The Tritons will be discussed later on in detail. As some other decorelements.

 

Hope you agree with my argumentation based on my own (art)historical knowledge, Eugen Rickenbacher and Bernd Monath. If not please don't hasitate to intercept my wrong ideas. I'm writing here to find new ideas or some correction of my point of view. Without you help I will repeat wrongs of my own thoughts or others.

Ui we are at #8... okay! After this furious steps foreward let us stop for a moment and lets look on our picturial sources:

 

I. Transom view (1681):

The mostly detailed drawing is this one after Charles LeBrun  - a construction scetch with the note "P.P.F.1681" and on the backside "Pujez",1668 (?). Pencil, pen (black and brown) on paper - 585x440mm.

So this drawing was made after the rebuild of 1676/77. So it might give us an idea of the appearance in a lightered design.

 

II. Transon scetch of project decoration:

The most oblivious change are the four male figures holding the highest part of the transom with King Louis XIV. (The similaritys and differences will be discussed later on.)

 

III. 45°-side view from starboard

This anonymus drawing from 1668 is believed to come from the Toulon workshop showing the side gallerys and transom decoration. But no gun barrels - so it migth be made during the accoutrements in Toulon. It also shows the four male figures strawl about the Upped gundeck and the poopdeck. The side gallery was a single knee fitted balkony not an enclosed unit (as it was at HMS Prince two years later). So here is my evidencia gor my vour favorites.

 

IV. Complete view 45° from starboard 

 

This drawing of 1668 is called "Le Grande Monarque/GRANDE MONARQUE dessiné par P.Puget" sounds as an error and I do belief the ship is our RL-1668 - as we have got 14 gunports on the 36pounder deck - MONARQUE only had had 13 ports. So the Grande Monarque is the substitute for the name of the king.

And we do get an astonishingly detailed drawing - again with four staning man over two tiers.

 

V. Complete view 45° from portside

This picture dated 1668 also by Pierre Puget shows RL-1668 at sea under full sail. Again we get interesting set of details of the figural decoration.

The corner of the balcony at the 12pounder deck can be seen easily.

 The last two drawing do give little detailed information to us about the figurehead - we have to guess a lot.

 

VI. The transom under flag:

The larger the flag the more important the ship. Here we see an anonymious drawing   - perchance by Commissaire Hayet with simple style and little detailing. But the Quartett of men is also there. Dated around 1677 we can trust in being before 1676 - before the rebuilt and the disappearence of the four heavy figures. The four coloums are clearly to be seen and a strong decorating element.

 

These were the sources of the transom and side gallerys. 

 

For the galion we have only an other Hayet(?)-drawing.

 

VII. Frontview after Hayet(?) 

with no really useable information of the

 

figure head and highly equivocal picturing of the breakhead bulkhead and the side gallery.

 

These were all the picture sources I could figure out.

 

So I do believe in the group of four men over two tiers at the transom before the big 1676/77 rebuild. So I'll follow this decoration feature strongly... 

 

Thanks for your patience and intrest.

 

 

And there are several differences between the two drawings... so the more figurale one seems to be the launching version.

 

Can you guys help me with these detail work?

Enlargements made... once used not my favourite copyshop.

😕

Anything is clearer now and I can do some progress this evening.

 

As this drawing dates from 1681 - it is made after the mayor rebuild in 1670 - so there may be some dufferences - but I'll try to go with the 1668 launched version. This obviously differ from each other.

 

P.S.: @Hubac's Historian

Dear Marc, instead I of translating the booklet I'm going to give all the information in this articel series in here to public.

The drawing signed with P.P.I.1681 shows a plenty of details.

Lets pick out some of them:

The crown of Thetis is from the very expensive corals from the RedSea. 

Le Bruns as art director reassembled a scenery from a painting at Versailles, several allegorian engravings and the "Mercurius abituruens" by Theodoor van Thuulden of 1642 to praise the French king and the pictures by Rubens due to the sorrow of Antwerp to be left behind.

 

The shodows do give us some idea of the forming of the balkonys.

So the mainproblem is to get any ideas what the transom of the ship looked like.  

So I geathered my literature, enlarged the drawings and make a copie of the transom by a pencil on transparent paper.

So I'll try to get some realistic ideas about any look of her. Today I started one trial and error project..having understood what shape means what figure, podestral, architectural element helps to get some idea of the hole composition. 

The sideviews give any possible idea of the deep and the shape, so I can start to give some 3D effect into the hole thing.

The Ancre plans for SAINT PHILIPPE are very helpfull for the structure under the figures.

And the little book "Über den Wellen bin ich einzigartig" opens the view of the art historian what allegorical figure stands for what political or geographical claim/appetite of power.

 

Hope you like it.

 

Praefix:

https://youtu.be/eduLvBaAbVs

 

Dear friends of the re-use of the Heller SR kit!

 

"OVER THE WAVES I AM EXCEPTIONAL"

This writing was placed on the mizzen mast of her - and due to my honorable colleague @Hubac's Historian /Marc and it's distinguished work I am here with this second baroque project by pure curiosity to the overwhelming decor on the pick of the  luxurious splendour  -  untill the laws of nature and naval arcitecture vetoingly entered the stage of history.

Yours HdS,

Berlin in spring 2019

 

 

The first ROYAL LOUIS we do know about with data giving us the oportunity for modelbuilding is usualy the RL-1692 - a less decorated ship than her predecessor from 1668.  But our situation isn't as bad as we may think. This vessesl was called "Vaisseau du premier rang extraordinaire" designed and constructed by Rodolphe Gédéon and decorated by François Girardon at Toulon. Launched on the 1st Feb.1668 she was rebuilt in 1677, went out of service in Jan.1691, renamed ROYAL LOUIS VIEUX and was broken up in 1697 at Toulon.

Measuring data:

Length/pp: 163'0" p* (52,95m)

L/keel: 135'0" p (43,85m)

Breadth: 44'4" (14,40m)

Draft: 21'0" (6,82m)

 

Planed with 104 guns (1668):

Lower Deck:

12 x 36pfd**

16 x 24pfd

Middle Deck:

26 x 18pfd

Upper Deck:

26 x 12pfd

Quaterdeck:

12 x 6pfd

F'r'c'stl:

8 x 6pfd

Poop:

4 x 4pfd

 

(There are some other data like length of gundeck etc.)

 

 

Laid down in 1666 it was planed with the most possible amount of decor as Colbert ordered to praise the king by its ships.

The propaganda machinery of the sun king's army of artist still influenced our point of view making us to belief in "royal blue" (sic!!!) painted plankings. But only the cartushes with the three fleur-de-lys were painted in the expensive lapis lazuli blue of milled semi-precious  juwely stones coming to france over the silkroad. (This last two sentences are, what I want to show to  why something is as it is andwhat is the historical od te hnical reason for this.)

 

The RL-1668 is pictred on several prints,engravings or ink drawings.

 

Herrich de or was a permanent source of trouble, as LeBrun was used to add a rich decor the shipwrights get paniced (knowing the VASA case) about the additive wight ant the high metrecentic point. So the figures were craved empty inside and so fixed. That the decor was cut down on the open sea to safe wigth (as Mondfeld told us) is not clear. But patrs of the decoation elements werde reused at the RL of 1692 - so we have to be aware of this fact not to confuse this both ships! 

 

Due to this I can use the SR hull as a basis and adding some fancy decor I might come towards my goal to build a ship of full french baroque decor. This before with the 1670th years a more unpretentious kind of decoration took place as SOLEIL ROYAL shows to us.

There are some pictures, but no technical drawing.

So here we have got the possibility to reconstruct the ship - it is clear to me this is the hard road to travel. But an less boring one than the typical o.o.b. builds.

 

I really dpn't know where my journey will end - at the moment I hope to be able to use the Heller hull as a basis for the rebuild; but it may also be my purpose and my fate to end up with the transoms glory only as one a part model. As the basis is allways the Heller SR kit so it is a kit bashing how much may even be in there at the end.

 

The lowest battery own 14 openings as the Heller hullSR - but the drawings of the galion are not very easy to decipher. 

It will only be a hull model scaled in the 1/90th. 

 

B.t.w. the MONARQUE is in the row of pictures due to her equal structure and the clearness of the drawing. She also is a contemporary example of the optical ligthness of these tons of white oak, colour and leaf gold. (I have to take any possibility to give my strange beliefs some historical footnotes.)

 

This project isn't made as a rush in you workshop with an arm full of rolled plans and wood, entering the branch and after being disappeared in a holy cloud of lightning covered sawdust you'll leave it with a shipmodel in your hand. It is a arthistorical trial to reconstruct a beloved period of shipbuilding killed by strange-minded pennypinchers and small-minded safty fanatics... 😉

 

Have fun and take care.

 

 

 

_______

*p = pieds 324,8mm (106,5% of a GB-foot)

** pfd\£[ivre] is 489,5g

 

That is great work, Marc. I  do think we will see a plenty of fine work from your side.

The SR is golden kit, an old lady but wounderful mouldbuilders work.

 

Styrenesheet is a clever option I tink about sanding away the barrel under the Fleur-de-lis and fix them on three master barrels. So there will be 36-, 24- ,12-pounders ready to cast new barrels for all the later projects.

 

Sorry not coming to NewLondon. But I'm highly interested in the pictures.

 

Take care!

Hello Marc... 

 

I.

That sounds well, so the decks are on the safe side. I think about the DaFi VICTORY  he should drill some holes fot endescopic surgery in the lower deck... 

It is a real pitty to hide all this work!!! 

 

I can understand to build dummy gun casings into the lower decks - try a resinparts for the gun rigging like the complete deadey-rope-deadeye parts of several plastic kits... so you have got a ligth eyecatcher beside the carriages without the ammount of work Daniel had got into the ship. The red of the gun carriages and the light wood-pink of the blocks and tan of the rope may give some intersting effect to the deck if you spot beside the barrel into the deck. Between the guns there are some kind of cupboards the may help to fix the deck above. And the grating can easily be iimitated by masking and spraying - look on your recent Ancre calender sheed... the red barrier in the middle framed between ahorn coloured planks makes a gread deal. In my huble opinion the flat vault along the hole deck is woth the work. And in the middle battery you have to bild it at all... as the ridiments of the detailing and colourshape can be seen through the bars latticework easyly from the sides on the upper deck - as the flat panks do only give little camouflage to two points of view.

 

II. a)

THE BOOK IS THE TV OF SMART PEOPLE! 

 

I found in thevGerman book  „Versaille der Meere“ the discurs about the decoration of RL aaaaand your SR! Bernd Morath says that LeBrune makes on the top transom a citatiation of his own work in Versailles!!!  So this morning I followed his track and found the „Fountain de Appollo“... ...you kow this feeling, I-do-really-know-this... but you cannot catch it! This it was and now the light switched on! 

 

I think besides the more breath of the transom (2nd door ect.) you will need a quadriga of horses being more structural and sculptural than moulded flat in the kit. So you might have to think about the structural elements to strengthen the top part of the transom due to the pure weight of the oak sculptures (as I'll have to do , too)? I do follow the problem-producing-&-wors-making sectence of Werner Zimmermann: „Could this have worked in real life?“ In my point of view the hole transom with its balkonies just nailed to the side galerys and hull would have rushed into the sea like a elevator or falling with a splash in to the sea like a drawbridge... so we have to do something. (By the way please don't waste your money into the LE PHENIX Planset of the AMM of Paris from the 60/70th - it is just the drawing for the later heller kit and without further helpful detailling - only heltful for PHENIX bilders due to the rigging.) Even last Oct.  in Rochefort we could see embrassingly detailed part models of the SR - but sadly  without structural strengtion - and I only found one pic ot the other side (with s.b.'s bottom as a dark background 😵)

As you can see your decoation grit/lattice work is a great detail and makes a massive impression to the hole set of work. You are on the very right way, Marc!

 

II. b)

Don't worry about my “wasted“ time - it was just my by-catch to the ROYAL LOUIS and ROYAL DAUPHIN-Projects (perchance MONARQUE and a hand full of others - I'm still in datamining)  based on the Heller-SR-hull. The hole large figures were removed from RL-1668 back to the worksheets and drilled out to safe wight at ROYAL LOUIS butand not removed! And after the learning period of 1665-1668 the deco till than used for one ship was shared onto two or three - also due to the costs and lack of sculptures the went away from Colbert's order to build the most decorated ships of the world for the sun kings first rank - “rang primeure extraordinere“.

 

By the way there was no mixture of highly decorated bronze and black iron ordonaces - have youto think about this on your SR? 

 

 

I now can say

 

“Your SR is the first LOW-DECO two-bit ship of the Sunking's Royal Navy!!!“ 😉

 

And I'll build later the reason for this... so for your ship no money was left 😀😂

 

So I hope you take this bad news as a real man and show further progress as we love your astonishing hand's work, Marc! 

 

Thanks for your good set of humor.😇

 

 

 

 

 

 

*Here the link to Achjafo's wonderful book rewiev:

 

https://www.wettringer-modellbauforum.de/forum/index.php?page=Thread&threadID=64079

 

On 3/6/2019 at 12:30 AM, Hubac's Historian said:

Heinrich - thank you for your kind words!

 

Yes, I have also seen this weathered version of the kit, and it seems as though the modeler has done a similar wash and wipe with oil-based Van Dyke Brown, or something similarly dark.  It still looks good - even without scraping off the raised grain - but I prefer the texturing and shading that the coarse sand paper imparts. 

 

I will be using two shades of blue; most of the frieze backdrop will be a lighter Cerulean blue, which in the 17th Century would be derived from copper salts.  I will make sparing use of Ultra-Marine to highlight various aspects of the lower frieze and tafferal.

 

I will not, however, “gild” all mouldings and ornamental work, as a matter of preference; even if that’s what would have likely been done to the real ship, I think it comes off as a little bit overwhelming; all that painstaking work gets lost in a sea of gold.  Instead, the frieze lattice and most upper bulwark port frames will be done in yellow ocher, with a very light distress wash of walnut ink stain.

 

Gold will be reserved for the ornaments, themselves, because I think this presentation will make them pop more.

 

I have brought the model home, now, and I will resume painting soon.  Maybe tonight, even.  I am also making a protective build-box to completely house the model, until I get into the masting and rigging phase.

 

Ironically, though, I will make the lower sections of each mast (in wood) fairly early on, so that I can step and rake them properly, and play with the proportions until I am satisfied with the run of the shrouds and the heights of the lower tops.

That, Marc sounds to me as thebroadmap for a grest and realistic model - by avoiding an overgolded and cobalt-bluelooking like the  caricatured collection cup of aunt Mary... the realistic touch can be given by shadowing with  the Citardel inks andand drybrushing vice versa. I  played a bit with on my golden putto - after 4 days they should be dry. Perchance you get some ideas from this o-o-t-project.

 

 

 

 

 

As you don'tfollow Dafi's Victory Dafissm you do biild the 

Great Cabin and some other visuable rooms like the bedroom? 😉 or open the doors? 

 

As you build her in the battle alle the furnitire is under deck and we can see the wooden floor decor. 

Marc, the decks planking is completely right - the question is birch, ahorn vaneer or polysterol?

 

The canons you can see on the upper, poop and f'c'stldeck? Or do you close the lids of the non-fireing board side?

 

Do you glue the hullsides on a solid 1/2" sheets to reinforce the hulls stability?

 

Im really unlucky and not satisfied with those gunbarrels. As we both do need 1/100 or 1/90 guns iron and the decorated bronze ones - we could keep some uoint venture in mind. 🙂

As we will have some troble with the decoration onto the same barrels we use for the iron casted guns. Or do you think there is some measurable difference in 1/100? (K.I.S.S. ...keep is short and simple) perhaps this pushes the project a bit.

Here frpm the Rochefort convention convention the transom of your SR...

 

It is very interesting how much even this two part models differ.

hth

 

Marc, that sounds as an concept. So I think tit will be an interesting moment to see yout testing parts coloured. As you don't build any underteaterearts, there is a plenty of work you don't need to do and time you will safe. 

Do you reinforce any parts of the hull and sides due to the stress of the rigging?

What will you change onto the hull at all?

 

 

Hy Marc, the complete rebuild of the Heller hull is not my case... I'll try to get to most of the hull, and for this I want to keep the structure alive and try not to change such basics as the decks sheerr. If I will do tthat please kick me against the knee!!! Brcause than I could start the hole SP project as well on scratch.

Here lifted CWL... and an inch ruler for the imperial fraction! 

 

 

 

...and I rised the CWL on you kindly given testing-ground:

Thanks Marc. For xor kind word... it try to leep it as a hobby not as a horror! 😄

 

...so I found in a 1€-shop my perfekt baroque Scale-Putto: 

 

„Louisinchen“ [= little Louis]

 

this evening I'll try some Sepia ink from Citardel to de-kitshing it a bit - and giving some more deep and structure.

 

To the hull... I want to try to get this underwater planking perrrrrrfect - glued on or engraved. As your hull is a perspchallangeonal challange to you, mine shall be my inner mountan - calling me to the top.

Hello Marc,

 

amazing and really great progress you did!!!

 

Due tue the colour blue I found two ends of the possible ways to biuild the SR... The realistic and the idealistic. This dutch side shows only this very single picture of the SRkit - but it might give you some impression. (I'm unlucky by the  universal grain all over the hull - I'd have "grained" any plank seperatly - a terrible work... but isn't the result worth travelling all the rocky road?) I just placed an idealistic and the weathered side-by-side to show the brutal contrast what is able to be made with this kit. 

The used "blue on the side gallery is very close to your shown Versailles-greyblue... ...as far as I remember basicly made from verdigris - and much more chaeper the milled lapis lazuli imported (from todays Afghanistan) about the silk road! 

 

One guy on britmodeller was able to use goldleaf to praise the kit... a way you will do the coloring also?

 

I've no further ideas as to stay and to stay in astionishment about your work. (Memo to me close your open mouth... )

 

 

Hello Marc,

I think your Idea to scratch into the puttyplaned galion is a great one. 

There are a plenty of "malfunctions" and "traps" in this kit - the only think that doesn't have a malfunction is every single trap. 

 

I'm still strugglint wuth the measurements of the plan and the hull. I'll have to build a measurement machine or buy a laser measurement tool to  catch the differences.If the do stay as little as it seems to bee I think I will't push the gunpots and all the rest. KI think about of pimping the latter and some othe details.

 

The nails and boölts will be made from evergrenn very fine squareparts and put into holes drilled after this enlarges plan.  

 

Here the link you can jump direkty into the building thread (if ou can't see any pictures, you might register) - the famous Dafi with Victory - and beyond is housing there:

https://www.segelschiffsmodellbau.com/t7157f1461-Sankt-Philippe-auf-Basis-Heller-SR.html

 

 

Thanks a lot for my testing facility - the portside is alrady sprycaned light grey - and I'll show the results to public..

Here the pictues for the Ancre's plan drawing of the galion and the 70th imagination done on the Heller draft board. This is something I'll have to change, too.

Hello Mark @Hubac's Historian

 

you are right it is the Tonnerant (two ships) „Class“!!!

 

In my German forum we dicussed the CWL intensivly and we figured out that even af Chapman shows ships with a "wet" wale. So it isn't a no go but it looks strange to us

 But the hole galion has to be redone if not rebuild do to its complete wrong appearance - it looks like planked, too. 

 

And you have been right in building a „vergin without lower body“ (as we say in Germany). I started with copying the Plane N° 45 by enlarging with 103,43% - and I got it on two sheert of standard paper, cut one slip off - glued it togeather for 84 cents! Including the opposite side .

 

Now I can sand off the ugly edge running around the lower underwaterhull as a strange second waterline. (Black in the picture of the fronthalf of the hull.)

 

So I'll sand off the planking under the lowest wale and add newish planks from polysterolplates 620x4,2x0,5mm. I'll cut them from plates as the Evergreen stripes would be to expensive  and had to be trimmed, too. The important point is that the wales were added after Mondfeld ("The art of shipbuilding in the XVIIth century") onto the formers and so the planking douesn't run under the wales it does run besides them.

 

 

So there is a boring work of sanding away the wrong placed CWL is taken away from me! I can sand anything and than will place the plankes as it would be done on a common hull. SoI the planking will be sanded away to reapear in a less questionable shape. On a hull with less edges and corners. So everything will be better.

 

After thus I'll have to sand the upper hull to equalize the panking as smooth as below- so the appearance is similar and the plankes surfaces stay homogen. 

 

These were the steps before I have to drill with my recently ordered platine drillers (0,1 to 1,0mm) the 0,4 and 0,2mm holes for the 0,5x0,5 and 0,25x0,25mm bolts made from Evergreen stripes. 

 

All this great and wounderfull idea* is tested before and when it work - if it will work - will be redone at the Heller kit! So I'll figure out if it can do what it is planed to do. If not I've got the port side left for some better idea.

 

If you lookon the Heller's kitbox there is this gap between hull and ancorholes surroumnding parts... if the marketing division lets pass this - what else will be wrong!?

 

KEEP CALM

AND

STAY MODELBUILDING,

 

HdS

 

P.S.:

I ordered a second kit to be prepared for a 1666 ROYAL LOUIS trial (perchace the after part of the ship only  due to the opulente decoration).

 

*„Many great and smart ideas are - at the very end some complete billshut only!“ D.Rumsfeld ex.SoD

Here the problem with the waterline and the rigging of the bowspritdown UNDER the waterline. Have you any ideas what is to be done not to get a pair wet dews?

15 hours ago, peveka said:

I am definitely going to follow this and you reignited my idea to make a clog-a-war ... best of luck with your project ;o)

@peveka But the crog as a doubledecked dutch fregatte? There is anything in a crog... b.t.w. the dutch word is “klompen“...

 

Even a katamaran