allanyed

Thanks for posting this video Keith.  VERY nicely done.  Time to go to their earlier segments.😀
Allan

I hope you do not mind a disagreement on this as I think  it is good to have a discussion like this. 😁.  I have no idea what you mean by "normal" ship model drawings.  Many of us use contemporary drawings, contracts when available and scantlings from the Establishments and elsewhere when appropriate.   There are many small boat drawings showing the thwarts and tholes properly located including several below.   

Cheers
 
Allan

 
 
 

Totally agree.  If done this way I have never had a problem sliding the rudder in place.  A number of kits provide the hardware but some are way out of scale so may be this is part of the problem.   You may find some useful information from the below example from the original contract  for Elephant (74) 1786 for that particular size vessel.    Picture and a 1000 words, etc. showing the rother of the Elephant below
 
ROTHER                       The Rother-head to be made long enough to receive a Tiller above the Upper Deck, to be strapped and hooped with Iron as usual, to be 2 feet 2 inches Thwartships: Fore and Aft 2 feet 4 inches, and 5 feet 6 inches broad at the lower End, and 4 feet 6 inches at the lower Hance height above the Deck as the Draught shall Direct. To be well made, the Pieces tabled to each other, and all but the Main and Bearding Pieces, to be Fir.   To have 7 Pair of Rother Irons, the upper brace to have long Straps, that may turn and meet round the Post.  The second Brace 4 feet 6 inches long from the Rabbit, the lower one from the Back of the Post 7 feet; to be hung Flemish Fashion, and well secured with Chocks above Water to prevent its unhanging.                                                                                                                 The Pintles to be 3⅜ inches diameter, all of them to be 1 foot 1½   inches long, except the lower one, that to be 1 foot 3½  inches long; the Straps of the Rother Braces and Pintles to be 4½  inches broad, and 2 inches thick in the Shoulder of the Return, and to have an iron strap on the Back of the Rother, and a Ring Bolt with two Rings by 1⅞ inches diameter drove through the Rother; the Rings of sufficient bigness; and to have an Eye bolt on each Side at the Ends of the Wing Transom, with Bolts of 1¼  inches diameter for the Rother Tackles, that all, both Braces and Pintles be carefully let in, that the Irons bear an equal Strain, that every Pintle and Brace have Bolts in the strap as close to the Shoulder as may be, drove through with a Saucer-head, and well clenched on the other side, the hole for the Tiller in the Rotherhead to be cut both that above & below the Upper Deck of equal bigness, square on the foreside 11⅛ inch on the aft side 10 inches that the same Tiller may fit either hole.  The Bearding of the Rother, between the Pintles and Back of the Stern Post, to be covered with Lead turned and nailed on the Sides; also to Lead the Helm Port, as is done in His Majesty’s Yards.

 

Post Forty-three
The Preparation
I have (26) 5mm planks at midships which are marked off on the hull using a tick strip.
I intend to work a first band of six strakes below the existing planking, and I’m looking to have the plank ends at the stem not less than 3mm in width.
With this in mind, I apply the lining tape.

1173

1179
The first application of the tape, now the tweaking begins.
In these shots the upper tape marks the line of the first section.
 
I am aiming to get a smooth sweep up to the stem using edge bent and tapered strips only. I hope to avoid the need for spiling except perhaps when I reach the under belly of the hull.
 
The trouble with lining off is deciding when it is at its optimum line.
This process is more art than arithmetic and I find myself in an agony of indecision wondering whether I have reached that point.
Using strip wood there is inevitably error creep strake upon strake, so I will fit the first section and then recalculate.
 
The following photos show the point where I think I am getting close to an acceptable run.

1191

1193

1195

1199

1212

1205

1207

1203a
I think it needs a slight tweak as indicated.

1216
This looks better to my eye.
I can now proceed to mark off the strake widths at each bulkhead point and begin planking.
 
B.E.
27/06/2023.
 
 
 

I've been following since day one and I'm in awe of Leo's abilities and dedication to getting the Tally Ho back in the water as good or better than the first day she sailed long ago. There are no half measures to work that's been done on the Tally Ho, what's been done is first class. The planking was/is a great education of how to. 

Thanks for posting this video Keith.  VERY nicely done.  Time to go to their earlier segments.😀
Allan

Here's he latest Tally Ho YouTube video, you can view how hanging a rudder is done in a real life situation. 
 
 

I hope you do not mind a disagreement on this as I think  it is good to have a discussion like this. 😁.  I have no idea what you mean by "normal" ship model drawings.  Many of us use contemporary drawings, contracts when available and scantlings from the Establishments and elsewhere when appropriate.   There are many small boat drawings showing the thwarts and tholes properly located including several below.   

Cheers
 
Allan

 
 
 

I hope you do not mind a disagreement on this as I think  it is good to have a discussion like this. 😁.  I have no idea what you mean by "normal" ship model drawings.  Many of us use contemporary drawings, contracts when available and scantlings from the Establishments and elsewhere when appropriate.   There are many small boat drawings showing the thwarts and tholes properly located including several below.   

Cheers
 
Allan

 
 
 

Hello
today we started with the fife rails. First I tuned the arches for the reserve mast storages, then build the rails itself and fitted them in. The rest will come the next days.

Very good point about the line size.  If you can squeeze double the line through the holes in the blocks the line is twice the circumference that it should be.  In general most builders find that undersize is better looking than over size on ship models.    
Allan

Totally agree.  If done this way I have never had a problem sliding the rudder in place.  A number of kits provide the hardware but some are way out of scale so may be this is part of the problem.   You may find some useful information from the below example from the original contract  for Elephant (74) 1786 for that particular size vessel.    Picture and a 1000 words, etc. showing the rother of the Elephant below
 
ROTHER                       The Rother-head to be made long enough to receive a Tiller above the Upper Deck, to be strapped and hooped with Iron as usual, to be 2 feet 2 inches Thwartships: Fore and Aft 2 feet 4 inches, and 5 feet 6 inches broad at the lower End, and 4 feet 6 inches at the lower Hance height above the Deck as the Draught shall Direct. To be well made, the Pieces tabled to each other, and all but the Main and Bearding Pieces, to be Fir.   To have 7 Pair of Rother Irons, the upper brace to have long Straps, that may turn and meet round the Post.  The second Brace 4 feet 6 inches long from the Rabbit, the lower one from the Back of the Post 7 feet; to be hung Flemish Fashion, and well secured with Chocks above Water to prevent its unhanging.                                                                                                                 The Pintles to be 3⅜ inches diameter, all of them to be 1 foot 1½   inches long, except the lower one, that to be 1 foot 3½  inches long; the Straps of the Rother Braces and Pintles to be 4½  inches broad, and 2 inches thick in the Shoulder of the Return, and to have an iron strap on the Back of the Rother, and a Ring Bolt with two Rings by 1⅞ inches diameter drove through the Rother; the Rings of sufficient bigness; and to have an Eye bolt on each Side at the Ends of the Wing Transom, with Bolts of 1¼  inches diameter for the Rother Tackles, that all, both Braces and Pintles be carefully let in, that the Irons bear an equal Strain, that every Pintle and Brace have Bolts in the strap as close to the Shoulder as may be, drove through with a Saucer-head, and well clenched on the other side, the hole for the Tiller in the Rotherhead to be cut both that above & below the Upper Deck of equal bigness, square on the foreside 11⅛ inch on the aft side 10 inches that the same Tiller may fit either hole.  The Bearding of the Rother, between the Pintles and Back of the Stern Post, to be covered with Lead turned and nailed on the Sides; also to Lead the Helm Port, as is done in His Majesty’s Yards.

 

Hi Jules
 
I just inserted the plate of the 24 foot sloop of 1690 into a CAD program, brought it to full size using the scale.  The dimensions are what they are, not my interpretation.  
 
Unlike the 24 foot sloop drawing, the Hohenzollern model looks realistic with evenly spaced thwarts and tholes.
 
This thread is very interesting, thank you for posting it.
 
Allan

Great picture Mark. The tholes look to be the same distance from the thwarts and alternate to set up for single banked rowing unlike the drawing above.  A few inches is probably not unusual, but I cannot get my head around there being about 14 inches from one thwart to the tholes and another 30 inches.
Allan 
 

Welcome to MSW Igmar.   I think the process of meticulous work is in our blood.    My father was a master of pysanky (one of his eggs below) which is as detailed as our ship modeling.  I hope to see some of your work posted here at MSW.    Allan
x

Totally agree.  If done this way I have never had a problem sliding the rudder in place.  A number of kits provide the hardware but some are way out of scale so may be this is part of the problem.   You may find some useful information from the below example from the original contract  for Elephant (74) 1786 for that particular size vessel.    Picture and a 1000 words, etc. showing the rother of the Elephant below
 
ROTHER                       The Rother-head to be made long enough to receive a Tiller above the Upper Deck, to be strapped and hooped with Iron as usual, to be 2 feet 2 inches Thwartships: Fore and Aft 2 feet 4 inches, and 5 feet 6 inches broad at the lower End, and 4 feet 6 inches at the lower Hance height above the Deck as the Draught shall Direct. To be well made, the Pieces tabled to each other, and all but the Main and Bearding Pieces, to be Fir.   To have 7 Pair of Rother Irons, the upper brace to have long Straps, that may turn and meet round the Post.  The second Brace 4 feet 6 inches long from the Rabbit, the lower one from the Back of the Post 7 feet; to be hung Flemish Fashion, and well secured with Chocks above Water to prevent its unhanging.                                                                                                                 The Pintles to be 3⅜ inches diameter, all of them to be 1 foot 1½   inches long, except the lower one, that to be 1 foot 3½  inches long; the Straps of the Rother Braces and Pintles to be 4½  inches broad, and 2 inches thick in the Shoulder of the Return, and to have an iron strap on the Back of the Rother, and a Ring Bolt with two Rings by 1⅞ inches diameter drove through the Rother; the Rings of sufficient bigness; and to have an Eye bolt on each Side at the Ends of the Wing Transom, with Bolts of 1¼  inches diameter for the Rother Tackles, that all, both Braces and Pintles be carefully let in, that the Irons bear an equal Strain, that every Pintle and Brace have Bolts in the strap as close to the Shoulder as may be, drove through with a Saucer-head, and well clenched on the other side, the hole for the Tiller in the Rotherhead to be cut both that above & below the Upper Deck of equal bigness, square on the foreside 11⅛ inch on the aft side 10 inches that the same Tiller may fit either hole.  The Bearding of the Rother, between the Pintles and Back of the Stern Post, to be covered with Lead turned and nailed on the Sides; also to Lead the Helm Port, as is done in His Majesty’s Yards.

 

Sort of like a long lost friend that returns home after being gone for too long and everyone, including me, is very happy you are back.
Allan

Very good point about the line size.  If you can squeeze double the line through the holes in the blocks the line is twice the circumference that it should be.  In general most builders find that undersize is better looking than over size on ship models.    
Allan

Very good point about the line size.  If you can squeeze double the line through the holes in the blocks the line is twice the circumference that it should be.  In general most builders find that undersize is better looking than over size on ship models.    
Allan

Good Evening All;
 
A big thank you to Jules for posting this, and especially for the news of the tests that were carried out on the draughts. I never really believed that they were fakes, as claimed by a well-known author some years back in an article in the Nautical Research Journal. This was done, I believe, solely to avoid said author's claim that 17th century Dutch shipbuilders did not use draughts until the very end of the century being discredited by the existence of such draughts. I also came across Jules' rebuttal of the fakery arguments very soon afterwards, and I know that another expert in this field was also highly sceptical of the claims of fakery. 
 
Regarding the rowing layout above, an interesting layout of the rowers is shown in a contemporary model in the NMM at Greenwich. See below. I am not suggesting that this is what was done here, as the thole pin layout is symmetrical, but it does offer the possibility of a wider choice in the rowers' positions.
 
All the best,
 
Mark P
 

 
 

I have seen both on contemporary models but not sure why they did that.  It has always been my understanding that there were no port lids where the ports were on open deck areas such as in the waste or on the QD and FC so there was no reason for having stops.
 I was indeed asking about the red lining areas which were actually edges of the frames and lower sill.    I realize there always seems to be exceptions but the sketch below is what I was asking about, hope it is more clear than words.  The first sketch is based on what I recently learned here at MSW and should be close to how these were done on the actual ships, and the second is closer to what can be done on a POB model.
Allan
 


 

Hi Gary
Welcome to MSW!!!    It would be very nice if you would please post a little intro about yourself in the new member forum.  Please consider starting a build log as it will bring a lot of viewers and help if you wish to have it.
 
In general, one of the most popular methods of threading rope through a block is to wet maybe a quarter inch or even half inch of the end of the rope with cyanoacrylate glue (liquid, not gel) then when cured, using a scalpel or even nail clippers, snip off a tiny piece of this stiffened portion, cutting on a bias, to create a point on what is now a needle of sorts.
 
I realize this is your first build, but it is good to start with good habits and have useful information so I hope the following is not unwelcome.  It sounds like the rope is too large or the hole in the block is too small in diameter.   There were dozens of rope sizes on a given ship, but for modeling purposes 6 to 8 usually suffice for most folks.  There are spread sheets by Danny Vadas available in the articles data base here at MSW that will give you every rope size of a wide range of British ship sizes and eras.  Typically the circumference of the rope was 0.25 the size (length) of the respective common blocks.   (Lees' Masting and Rigging of English Ships of War, page 189)  Tiller rope was 0.25 the size of the main stay and the circumference of the main stay was 1/2 the diameter of the main mast. Note that rope sizes were given in circumference, not diameter, so you will have to convert when getting properly sized rope if you do not have any.  The use of miniature rope in place of some, not all,  kit supplied thread (which often looks nothing like rope,) will enhance your model a lot.  
 
Allan

I just now read this topic and it is indeed interesting, thank you very much for sharing.
 
I do question the knowledge of his father in at least one instance.   In the below drawing ----the boat is wide enough to be double banked so it makes sense that there are openings in the gunnels  for the oars to sit port and starboard.  But, assuming the rowers were pulling oars as was normal they would be seated facing aft, how could they possibly row with the varying distances between oar placement and seating placement?   Add to this that the aft most thwart has no openings in the gunnel  at all.  Maybe this was just an extra thwart for passengers.  The distance varies from about 30" (a long reach for a rower) to 14", so no room to maneuver an oar at all without hitting the rower in front of him in the back.  This is exaggerated in the aft most position as the openings are even with the thwart.   It might just be me but this design makes no sense at all.  Hope someone can explain things if I am missing something.
Allan

What kind of wood came with the kit?   For the hull above the coppering Alaskan cedar and castello boxwood are popular and are very tight grained so look terrific when left natural.  The wales and the strake above the main wales of course can be any wood as they would be painted/stained black.   For items such as bitts and such, Swiss pear is a reddish color that may alleviate the  need of red paint.  Same goes for the stops in the ports, spirketting and quickwork on the bulwarks, although the red may be too subtle for you compared to what is usually seen on contemporary models. Rosewood, especially Brazilian rosewood, is a great red color wood, but needs to be wiped down with IPA or Xylene to remove the surface oil to eliminate the gluing issues.  For decks, holly is grand and the whitish color gives a contrast to the other woods in the build.  
Allan

Hi Gary
Welcome to MSW!!!    It would be very nice if you would please post a little intro about yourself in the new member forum.  Please consider starting a build log as it will bring a lot of viewers and help if you wish to have it.
 
In general, one of the most popular methods of threading rope through a block is to wet maybe a quarter inch or even half inch of the end of the rope with cyanoacrylate glue (liquid, not gel) then when cured, using a scalpel or even nail clippers, snip off a tiny piece of this stiffened portion, cutting on a bias, to create a point on what is now a needle of sorts.
 
I realize this is your first build, but it is good to start with good habits and have useful information so I hope the following is not unwelcome.  It sounds like the rope is too large or the hole in the block is too small in diameter.   There were dozens of rope sizes on a given ship, but for modeling purposes 6 to 8 usually suffice for most folks.  There are spread sheets by Danny Vadas available in the articles data base here at MSW that will give you every rope size of a wide range of British ship sizes and eras.  Typically the circumference of the rope was 0.25 the size (length) of the respective common blocks.   (Lees' Masting and Rigging of English Ships of War, page 189)  Tiller rope was 0.25 the size of the main stay and the circumference of the main stay was 1/2 the diameter of the main mast. Note that rope sizes were given in circumference, not diameter, so you will have to convert when getting properly sized rope if you do not have any.  The use of miniature rope in place of some, not all,  kit supplied thread (which often looks nothing like rope,) will enhance your model a lot.  
 
Allan