Jaager

I built Kate Cory using the method.  The scantlings are a minor detail. 
 
Davis used all bends and room= space because that was how large wooden hulls from around 1900 were built and that was where he came from.   It had nothing to do with how wooden hulls were framed before
iron and steel took over and the old ways were lost.  The last 50 years has been a long and difficult rediscovery of the older methods - at least as it applies to ship modeling.
Hahn stood on Davis' shoulders, but he was focused on a narrow slice of time in his subjects to model.  For the ships in his era of interest =If the station intervals are combined with the then current published scantlings - there is very little space between the floors and F1 timbers.  If a hull is framed as built, it would be a solid wall of timber with 1"-2" air gaps between them.  A display of this sort of framing would not be visually interesting and to my eye sort of ugly and pointless.  When compared to early Navy Board style framing the esthetic differences are stark.  Hahn solved this by using Davis style framing - all bends and room= space.  It is just wrong for the period and the over large spaces look like poor dental hygiene.  But that is just my opinion and it counts for nothing.
My point is that the nature of the frame timbers and the spaces is independent of Hahn's upside down method.  The framing came be anything.  I will point out that singleton frames, which rely solely on end grain to end grain bonds are a nightmare as opposed to a bend which is really strong.
 
Now with the Hahn method you are going to waste a lot of expensive wood.  You willing to spot that.  If you PVA bond deadwood at the keel between every frame, the hull will be stronger.  If you intend to plank over everything from the main wale on up, you can PVA bond wood where the space would be and it will be really strong.  If you use a temporary and easily reversible adhesive, wood can be used to fill the spaces.  This makes the hull a solid and it self protects against aggressive  shaping and faring - until the space fillers are removed.
 
Take a look at my Renommee build for an alternative way of frame assembly.  It is about as efficient in wood as it gets. Needs no baseboard or any other sort of support.  Is about 10 times faster to loft if you must do that.  I did not have open framing on Renommee because my purpose with it was to show an alternative to the awful looking POB with all all filling between the molds.  You have to use your imagination to see how spaces would be included.  If and when I post my Centurion log, open framing will be shown as well as a more complete explanation  of the lofting method used.

Thomas,
 
First, now ANCRE is providing plans with an exposition of the frames at 1:48 and 1:72 of the Sane 74.
At first when I looked at your photo, I was guessing that  your model was a click larger than 1:48 - since your hull is  larger than my framed hull of Commerce de Marseille -  then I remembered that I build at 1:60  and that yours is about twice the 3D size - so 1:48?  Fully masted and in a case - it will be interesting in how much habitat volume it occupies.
 
We seem to have a definition confusion here.   There is no definitive meaning for what is meant by Admiralty.
I used to think it referred  to POF - open frame - 17th century style framing.  But now I use Navy Board framing to define that style.
Then - from use here on the forum - I thought it meant a POF, open frame with no masts or short stubs for them.
With you calling your hull Admiralty,  well - your framing looks to be all bends with ~20% space,  which would match how these 74 were actually built.  But you intend to fully mast it? 
 
I cannot recall a definitive name for the current style of leaving the decks mostly open and most of the usually hidden guts present and most of the upper works outside and inside planking left off.  What was once a virtuoso exercise in fully following a monograph inside as well as outside  seems to have become a sort of standard.   Why that is, has me banging my head to get the water out of my ears.  I wonder if the additional complexity of adding more to a POF than what would be seen if it was a fully planked above the wale  and decked model of a vessel as it actually sailed might frighten off some who would otherwise build POF?

Those are, I believe, proportional dividers.   The thumb screw adjustment is probably an old style and an inexpensive model.  I wonder of one arm could move up and down independent of the other?   It would make precision a bit of a problem.  I have a set of K&E 6"  dividers and the pivot is rack and pinion.  My only complaint is that it does not rack down to 1:1.  But there is no reason for it to do so, except that it is not useful for correcting an aberration in  the <10% range.

PILLAR DRILL : A tall upright machine useful for suddenly snatching flat metal bar out of your hands so that it smacks you in the chest and flings your beer across the room, denting the freshly-painted project which you had carefully set in the corner where nothing could get to it.
 
WIRE WHEEL : Cleans paint off bolts and then throws them somewhere under the workbench with the speed of light. Also removes fingerprints and hard-earned calluses from fingers in about the time it takes you to say, 'Oh sh*t'
 
PLIERS : Used to round off bolt heads. Sometimes used in the creation of blood-blisters.
 
BELT SANDER : An electric sanding tool commonly used to convert minor touch-up jobs into major refinishing jobs.
 
HACKSAW : One of a family of cutting tools built on the Ouija board principle... It transforms human energy into a crooked, unpredictable motion, and the more you attempt to influence its course, the more dismal your future becomes.
 
MOLE GRIPS : Generally used after pliers to completely round off bolt heads. If nothing else is available, they can also be used to transfer intense welding heat to the palm of your hand.
 
OXYACETYLENE TORCH : Used almost entirely for  setting on fire various flammable objects in your workshop. Also handy for igniting the grease inside the wheel hub out of which you want to remove a bearing race..
 
HYDRAULIC JACK : Used for lowering a car to the ground after you have installed your new brake shoes, trapping the jack handle firmly under the bumper.
 
BAND SAW : A large stationary power saw primarily used by most people  to cut good metal sheet into smaller pieces that more easily fit into the bin after you cut on the inside of the line instead of the outside edge.
 
TWO-TON ENGINE HOIST : A tool for testing the maximum tensile strength of everything you forgot to disconnect.
 
PHILLIPS SCREWDRIVER : Normally used to stab the vacuum seals under lids or for opening old-style paper-and-tin oil cans and splashing oil on your shirt; but can also be used, as the name implies, to  butcher Phillips screw heads.
 
STRAIGHT SCREWDRIVER : A tool for opening paint cans. Sometimes used to convert common slotted screws into non-removable screws and butchering your palms.
 
PRY BAR: See Screwdriver
 
HAMMER : Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent to the object we are trying to hit.
 
STANLEY  KNIFE : Used to open and slice through the contents of parcels delivered to your front door; works particularly well on contents such as seats, vinyl records, liquids in plastic bottles and rubber or plastic parts. Especially useful for slicing work clothes, but only while in use.
 
ADJUSTABLE SPANNER aka "Another hammer", aka "the Swedish Nut Lathe", aka "Crescent Wrench".  Commonly used as one size fits all, usually results in rounding off nut heads before the use of pliers.  Will randomly adjust size between bolts, resulting in injury ,swearing and multiple threats to any inanimate objects within the immediate vicinity.
 
BASTARD TOOL : Any handy tool that you grab and throw across the garage while yelling  BASTARD at the top of your voice . It is also, most often, the next tool that you will need.

Well, I have been giving thought to doing another Licorne, but this time for me.  I won't send a model off to be deconstructed again.  If were to do it, I would build up my frames from segments and not use Hahn's method of making framing which is very wasteful. But I would use his upside down method.

I built Kate Cory using the method.  The scantlings are a minor detail. 
 
Davis used all bends and room= space because that was how large wooden hulls from around 1900 were built and that was where he came from.   It had nothing to do with how wooden hulls were framed before
iron and steel took over and the old ways were lost.  The last 50 years has been a long and difficult rediscovery of the older methods - at least as it applies to ship modeling.
Hahn stood on Davis' shoulders, but he was focused on a narrow slice of time in his subjects to model.  For the ships in his era of interest =If the station intervals are combined with the then current published scantlings - there is very little space between the floors and F1 timbers.  If a hull is framed as built, it would be a solid wall of timber with 1"-2" air gaps between them.  A display of this sort of framing would not be visually interesting and to my eye sort of ugly and pointless.  When compared to early Navy Board style framing the esthetic differences are stark.  Hahn solved this by using Davis style framing - all bends and room= space.  It is just wrong for the period and the over large spaces look like poor dental hygiene.  But that is just my opinion and it counts for nothing.
My point is that the nature of the frame timbers and the spaces is independent of Hahn's upside down method.  The framing came be anything.  I will point out that singleton frames, which rely solely on end grain to end grain bonds are a nightmare as opposed to a bend which is really strong.
 
Now with the Hahn method you are going to waste a lot of expensive wood.  You willing to spot that.  If you PVA bond deadwood at the keel between every frame, the hull will be stronger.  If you intend to plank over everything from the main wale on up, you can PVA bond wood where the space would be and it will be really strong.  If you use a temporary and easily reversible adhesive, wood can be used to fill the spaces.  This makes the hull a solid and it self protects against aggressive  shaping and faring - until the space fillers are removed.
 
Take a look at my Renommee build for an alternative way of frame assembly.  It is about as efficient in wood as it gets. Needs no baseboard or any other sort of support.  Is about 10 times faster to loft if you must do that.  I did not have open framing on Renommee because my purpose with it was to show an alternative to the awful looking POB with all all filling between the molds.  You have to use your imagination to see how spaces would be included.  If and when I post my Centurion log, open framing will be shown as well as a more complete explanation  of the lofting method used.

Oh and, now that I think on it,  question #2  - one side always dead straight - may be  from clinker and not necessarily carvel planking.

Thank you Vaddoc,
My questions were accepted and answered in exactly the light that was my intent.
 
One step that was not addressed is that
11 - With 3 zones, the planking sequence should be garboard zone up #1 , then Rail down #2,  then turn of the bilge zone last?

Neither Oak nor Walnut are really suitable for use on a ship model if they do not have their open pores sealed and then painted.
The Walnut used is not Black Walnut of North American fame.  The open pores and grain of either Red Oak or White Oak do not scale at all well.  If it is hidden, the wood is certainly hard enough for most any part.   But, it can be friable and brittle at model scales.
 
Hard Maple, Beech, and Birch are in the same shade range and scale more appropriately.  If you do your own milling,  You can pick and choose the grain presentation.   The same Hard Maple board can produce a wide range of grain display.  It depends on the way the cut plane is oriented to the grain.   If you wish softer wood,  Yellow Poplar works well, but the color variation is such that only about 25% will match a light Oak shade.  The various Soft Maple species are the correct shade and are indeed soft, but I find the grain to be unstable and not reliable and better used for pallets - essentially trash - It lacks enough heat content to make good firewood. 
 
 

Neither Oak nor Walnut are really suitable for use on a ship model if they do not have their open pores sealed and then painted.
The Walnut used is not Black Walnut of North American fame.  The open pores and grain of either Red Oak or White Oak do not scale at all well.  If it is hidden, the wood is certainly hard enough for most any part.   But, it can be friable and brittle at model scales.
 
Hard Maple, Beech, and Birch are in the same shade range and scale more appropriately.  If you do your own milling,  You can pick and choose the grain presentation.   The same Hard Maple board can produce a wide range of grain display.  It depends on the way the cut plane is oriented to the grain.   If you wish softer wood,  Yellow Poplar works well, but the color variation is such that only about 25% will match a light Oak shade.  The various Soft Maple species are the correct shade and are indeed soft, but I find the grain to be unstable and not reliable and better used for pallets - essentially trash - It lacks enough heat content to make good firewood. 
 
 

Neither Oak nor Walnut are really suitable for use on a ship model if they do not have their open pores sealed and then painted.
The Walnut used is not Black Walnut of North American fame.  The open pores and grain of either Red Oak or White Oak do not scale at all well.  If it is hidden, the wood is certainly hard enough for most any part.   But, it can be friable and brittle at model scales.
 
Hard Maple, Beech, and Birch are in the same shade range and scale more appropriately.  If you do your own milling,  You can pick and choose the grain presentation.   The same Hard Maple board can produce a wide range of grain display.  It depends on the way the cut plane is oriented to the grain.   If you wish softer wood,  Yellow Poplar works well, but the color variation is such that only about 25% will match a light Oak shade.  The various Soft Maple species are the correct shade and are indeed soft, but I find the grain to be unstable and not reliable and better used for pallets - essentially trash - It lacks enough heat content to make good firewood. 
 
 

Good morning,
before I start television yesterday evening, I had a look into the 2. volume of the Rogers Collection. And there it was, in 1719 the channels had a lower position and therefor an other form. Jaager you where right with your first though.
 

 
In this case the fore channels where broader in front and the main channels at the aft end to get sure that the shrouds are clear with the ships side. The real Centurion was build that way, but the model was build in 1747 and the modellers build it in the way that was used then. The channels over the ports of the upper gun deck. 
 
The channels are now parallel to the ships side, or as the centurion shows a little narrower in the front or back. In this case I take the measurements from the establishment list only for the largest width of them.

Neither Oak nor Walnut are really suitable for use on a ship model if they do not have their open pores sealed and then painted.
The Walnut used is not Black Walnut of North American fame.  The open pores and grain of either Red Oak or White Oak do not scale at all well.  If it is hidden, the wood is certainly hard enough for most any part.   But, it can be friable and brittle at model scales.
 
Hard Maple, Beech, and Birch are in the same shade range and scale more appropriately.  If you do your own milling,  You can pick and choose the grain presentation.   The same Hard Maple board can produce a wide range of grain display.  It depends on the way the cut plane is oriented to the grain.   If you wish softer wood,  Yellow Poplar works well, but the color variation is such that only about 25% will match a light Oak shade.  The various Soft Maple species are the correct shade and are indeed soft, but I find the grain to be unstable and not reliable and better used for pallets - essentially trash - It lacks enough heat content to make good firewood. 
 
 

Further comment on the difference between plastic model kits and wooden ship model kits:
 
Plastic kits are designed to be assembled. Wooden kits are designed to be built. Give some thought to this difference between the two. The plastic kit manufacturer begins with the assumption that their customers know little, if anything, about the prototype subject of their model, be it a car, a plane, a tank, or a ship. If the customer actually knows a little, or a lot, about the prototype, so much the better, but it doesn't take much to "insert peg A into hole A" to yield a satisfactory result. A beginning plastic kit modeler will find success if they pay attention to cleaning off the flash and gluing carefully. Beyond that, plastic modeling is all about finishing and this is where the skills of artistic painting and weathering really separate the beginners from the masters in the plastic modeling game. While not intending to denigrate the skills involved in plastic modeling in the least, they are a fairly limited skill set. 
 
Plastic model kits evolved to provide a way to create miniatures of complex metal objects: cars, planes, tanks, and ships, primarily. Building such a subject in miniature from scratch using metal demands a very high level of skill and craftsmanship that few possess. The creations of those who do so are impressive and, correspondingly, those with such skills have no need for kits to do so.
 
Wooden ship model kits have an entirely different evolutionary history. Wooden ship models were built from scratch from the very beginning and kits, such as they are, only came centuries later. Wooden ship model kits have always been based upon a somewhat false premise: That by providing the raw materials, a set of plans, and perhaps some limited "instructions," anybody could do it. This premise overlooks the fact that building a wooden ship model requires a broad range of skills that cannot be packaged in a box. For openers, the builder's ability to work with wood and metal is a given and it is extremely difficult to write instructions which enable a novice without any fluency in nautical nomenclature to assemble parts the names of which are to the beginning builder a completely foreign language! Then, of course, there is the need to understand how the modeled vessel's rig actually works in real life if a realistic impression of it in miniature is to be achieved. Wooden ship models were, until relatively recent times, almost solely the province of experienced mariners with hands-on familiarity with the prototypes they were modeling. "If it looks right, it is right," was a reliable rule of thumb when the modeler's "vision" was based upon intimate experience with the subject. A seaman who'd spent any time aloft in the age of sail had no difficulty recognizing that a block was out of scale. No so the guy who grew up in Utah who, smitten with "the romance of the sea," drops a few hundred bucks for that big pirated Chinese Victory kit he saw online. (And trust me, the "number of parts" a kit contains is no measure of its quality or value!)
 
Even today, very few ship model kits contain adequate instructions for a novice. (Many, if not most,  kit instructions cause even experienced ship modelers to their personal research libraries, compiled for just such purposes, in order to confirm details of historical accuracy and scale.) So, what little I can add to the sage advice above, assuming you are not an experienced mariner, wooden boat and ship builder, rigger, painter, blacksmith, and sailmaker, is 1) Start simple and 2) read the instructions before you buy the kit!  The second recommendation is more important than the first. As far as I know, only Syren Ship Models and Model Shipways offer online access to their kit instructions. The best of these are those written by Chuck Passaro (of this forum) for Syren and Model Shipways. If you read these instructions from cover to cover and at the end can say, "I think I can do that." you're good to go. If not, the discouraging effort probably saved you a few hundred dollars and a lot of frustration and failure. But, if you start small,  and rely on resources like this forum and the wide spectrum of literature on ship modeling, you will develop the skills and experience as you go along and, given that, yes... anybody can do it.
 
Read the "monograph chapters" of Chuck Passaro's Medway Longboat kit. If you're serious, you won't go far wrong with this one: Medway Longboat (1742) (syrenshipmodelcompany.com)

I think what Allan is saying is that - he attaches the chain plates as raw copper.  He then paints it with Liver of Sulfur to blacken it. 
The copper would need to be absolutely clean after it was attached.  Doing it this way, none of the blackened coating would be lost vs if it had been blackened prior to attachment.
This suggests that LoS leaves a coating that is easily abraded back to raw copper.  

Thinking about it, it sort of makes sense.   I think that the channels are parallel to the midline.   The data points in the Establishments are the place where they are most narrow.   For the mizzen, the slope of the tops is a small rate of change.   That said, I would probably still make it parallel  - then the after end would be slightly wider.    They would not be parallelograms when viewed from above, they would be a section of a large triangle.  (Plane Geometry was in 1962 and I forget the name of a 4 side with all sides unequal.)
OR
if it is parallel with the side of the ship, only the one data point would be needed.  In this case they would be parallelograms.
 

One thing about files:   a lot of deals and advertising for diamond coated.  These are for working metal.  The cutting edges do not fit with wood.
You want HSS.  You want one of the small number of high quality company products.  If you are doing heavy wood removal, keep any downward force on top of the area being filed.
Working a file with the file force vectors making it bow will not end well for your pocketbook.

You should probably read the Caution post and the new modeler post.  I will repeat a recent theme.  Except for painting prior experience with plastic kits is more likely to give you an unrealistic expectation about just how much help to expect from wooden ship model kits.   A plastic  kit is in general a world unto itself.  The instructions are usually complete for building the kit.   A wooden ship is part of a much larger world.  There are common skills needed to complete any one of them.  Wooden kit instructions tend to not include those commonly used skills.  You are generally expected to know them before you begin.  If you have no prior experience with fine woodworking, you are well advised to start simple and develop them many skills needed as you go.  The beginner subjects are not sexy, famous or flashy, but they will develop a foundation of needed skills and if you do boats instead of ships, gain particular skills needed for larger vessels.  Pretty much all ships have boats.  the boat part of ship kits are generally weak and small.  A prior grounding in boat construction will help with figuring out how to model a boat at a much smaller scale.   If you had a ship model that matched the scale of a boat kit, it would be the size of you living room couch or larger.   Anyway, the point is that wooden kit instructions are different in nature from instructions for plastic kits.

John,
 
I would think that a clear coat of the organic solvent sort would buy you time, but if the "white glue" is PVA, that has the potential to be a disaster.  The final product in lead disease is lead acetate -I believe.
I am not sure how much if any acetate is in bookbinders PVA,  but all other woodworkers PVA has as much acetic acid as 5% vinegar.  My guess is that a PVA coat would accelerate the disintegration of a lead casting.  
The clear coat using lacquer et al. has the disadvantage of not being glass and thus allowing gases to migrate across it.  A quick smell of vinegar tells you that acetic acid is partially a gas at RT.  

I built Kate Cory using the method.  The scantlings are a minor detail. 
 
Davis used all bends and room= space because that was how large wooden hulls from around 1900 were built and that was where he came from.   It had nothing to do with how wooden hulls were framed before
iron and steel took over and the old ways were lost.  The last 50 years has been a long and difficult rediscovery of the older methods - at least as it applies to ship modeling.
Hahn stood on Davis' shoulders, but he was focused on a narrow slice of time in his subjects to model.  For the ships in his era of interest =If the station intervals are combined with the then current published scantlings - there is very little space between the floors and F1 timbers.  If a hull is framed as built, it would be a solid wall of timber with 1"-2" air gaps between them.  A display of this sort of framing would not be visually interesting and to my eye sort of ugly and pointless.  When compared to early Navy Board style framing the esthetic differences are stark.  Hahn solved this by using Davis style framing - all bends and room= space.  It is just wrong for the period and the over large spaces look like poor dental hygiene.  But that is just my opinion and it counts for nothing.
My point is that the nature of the frame timbers and the spaces is independent of Hahn's upside down method.  The framing came be anything.  I will point out that singleton frames, which rely solely on end grain to end grain bonds are a nightmare as opposed to a bend which is really strong.
 
Now with the Hahn method you are going to waste a lot of expensive wood.  You willing to spot that.  If you PVA bond deadwood at the keel between every frame, the hull will be stronger.  If you intend to plank over everything from the main wale on up, you can PVA bond wood where the space would be and it will be really strong.  If you use a temporary and easily reversible adhesive, wood can be used to fill the spaces.  This makes the hull a solid and it self protects against aggressive  shaping and faring - until the space fillers are removed.
 
Take a look at my Renommee build for an alternative way of frame assembly.  It is about as efficient in wood as it gets. Needs no baseboard or any other sort of support.  Is about 10 times faster to loft if you must do that.  I did not have open framing on Renommee because my purpose with it was to show an alternative to the awful looking POB with all all filling between the molds.  You have to use your imagination to see how spaces would be included.  If and when I post my Centurion log, open framing will be shown as well as a more complete explanation  of the lofting method used.

Yesterday, the book landed here from Pen and Sword.   The core of it is the  SeaWatch volume - old wine in new bottles.  The brothers do a pert fair job of photo documenting their models in this version.

I built Kate Cory using the method.  The scantlings are a minor detail. 
 
Davis used all bends and room= space because that was how large wooden hulls from around 1900 were built and that was where he came from.   It had nothing to do with how wooden hulls were framed before
iron and steel took over and the old ways were lost.  The last 50 years has been a long and difficult rediscovery of the older methods - at least as it applies to ship modeling.
Hahn stood on Davis' shoulders, but he was focused on a narrow slice of time in his subjects to model.  For the ships in his era of interest =If the station intervals are combined with the then current published scantlings - there is very little space between the floors and F1 timbers.  If a hull is framed as built, it would be a solid wall of timber with 1"-2" air gaps between them.  A display of this sort of framing would not be visually interesting and to my eye sort of ugly and pointless.  When compared to early Navy Board style framing the esthetic differences are stark.  Hahn solved this by using Davis style framing - all bends and room= space.  It is just wrong for the period and the over large spaces look like poor dental hygiene.  But that is just my opinion and it counts for nothing.
My point is that the nature of the frame timbers and the spaces is independent of Hahn's upside down method.  The framing came be anything.  I will point out that singleton frames, which rely solely on end grain to end grain bonds are a nightmare as opposed to a bend which is really strong.
 
Now with the Hahn method you are going to waste a lot of expensive wood.  You willing to spot that.  If you PVA bond deadwood at the keel between every frame, the hull will be stronger.  If you intend to plank over everything from the main wale on up, you can PVA bond wood where the space would be and it will be really strong.  If you use a temporary and easily reversible adhesive, wood can be used to fill the spaces.  This makes the hull a solid and it self protects against aggressive  shaping and faring - until the space fillers are removed.
 
Take a look at my Renommee build for an alternative way of frame assembly.  It is about as efficient in wood as it gets. Needs no baseboard or any other sort of support.  Is about 10 times faster to loft if you must do that.  I did not have open framing on Renommee because my purpose with it was to show an alternative to the awful looking POB with all all filling between the molds.  You have to use your imagination to see how spaces would be included.  If and when I post my Centurion log, open framing will be shown as well as a more complete explanation  of the lofting method used.

Yesterday, the book landed here from Pen and Sword.   The core of it is the  SeaWatch volume - old wine in new bottles.  The brothers do a pert fair job of photo documenting their models in this version.

Yesterday, the book landed here from Pen and Sword.   The core of it is the  SeaWatch volume - old wine in new bottles.  The brothers do a pert fair job of photo documenting their models in this version.

I think what Allan is saying is that - he attaches the chain plates as raw copper.  He then paints it with Liver of Sulfur to blacken it. 
The copper would need to be absolutely clean after it was attached.  Doing it this way, none of the blackened coating would be lost vs if it had been blackened prior to attachment.
This suggests that LoS leaves a coating that is easily abraded back to raw copper.