Jaager

Clear, quick set, absolutely no shear stress or prise struss -  cellulose nitrate adhesive - Duco here-  maybe Ambroid in some places?
 
I would not use it to assemble a model, but it is quick and dirty to fit a round toothpick into a piece of stiff packing foam to use as a custom size PVA spreader, applicator.

From the point of view of a home sawyer and saw miller, much time is involved in getting water out of wood and getting it equilibrate with atmospheric water concentration.  Soaking a plank is undoing all that, if you even could get water deep into the interior.  The natural glue that holds wood fiber together is not soluble in water in any case.  It is heat that loosens the bond enough to allow the fibers to slide as individuals and then rebond when the heat as dissipated,  Steam is more efficient than air at heat transfer. The hotter the steam the faster is the transfer.  Liquid water does not exceed 100 degrees.  It is probably a bad thing to actually cook the wood.
 
There are more than a few threads here concerning the various methods and devices used to bend planking.
 

Bruce,
It looks like you have beautiful, clear stock.  It does not get much better than Holly.  Fortune turned her smile onto you there.
 
I don't know what your building material is over there,  but here, the most common construction lumber is 2"x4" x 8' Pine or Fir.  It is not expensive as far as wood goes.  If you can mill it, it works well as fill stock between the moulds.  Do an inside curve, rather than solid to the "keel centerline piece" to save wood and weight.  It can be a several lamination. 
If an additional throw away layer that is the thickness of the plywood moulds is added, two adjacent mould patterns layered in a drawing program with locator guides added - bamboo skewers - straight from the package make good dowels - if you have a drill bit that diameter and a drill press to make sure the holes are perpendicular.  Only need to manipulate the pattern for one side - flip horizontal is a big time saver and assures lateral symmetry.
Most of the scroll cutting,, layer assembly, shaping to near final curves - done off the hull. - paper or cardboard shims if there is play between the moulds.
Do this all the way and it is like having a solid hull.  One layer of planking is enough.  The planks have about as good a glue support as possible.

I guess I must be missing something about double planking a series of POB moulds.
The outer layer is done in a way that covers whatever is under it?
Unless the hull is intended to actually float ( and POB is a poor choice for this) why bother with a filler for the first layer? It will not be seen anyway if longitudinal gaps between planks is what is being "fixed".  If the run has hollows, a wooden scab is probably a better fix.
 
Bruce,
Have you milled your Holly logs yet?  If you did not immediately get the logs into a kiln,  unless Blue Mold is restricted to this side of the Pond, it is likely to have invaded your lumber.  If so, the bad news is that the wood will not be white,  rather grey or light blue.  The good news, the integrity of the wood is not compromised.  It is just as hard, bends just as well - really an excellent species for our needs.  It accepts aniline dyes well.  The fungus does not affect that - except for the final shade..  I am thinking that infected Holly may yield a more realistic deck than a marquetry white stock.
 

All and all, I think a quote from one of your countrymen applies here: "You don't want it."

In a parallel thread about downloading NMM drawings, there is a link to a Wiki commons  site with JPEG of NMM plans.
There are several for a Discovery 1789 including lines - They are for conversion of that ship to a bomb vessel.  The vessel is not at all attractive.

All and all, I think a quote from one of your countrymen applies here: "You don't want it."

Make friends with a nearby pharmacy tech.  Some pharmaceuticals still come in small glass bottles and they are just pitched into the trash - unless the Rx is for the amount in the bottle. 
There are Science "surplus" web vendors who sell a variety of small glass bottles.
 
I share your sense of wastefulness with your present process.  But step back and look at a wider perspective.  The variables involved with an alternative probably make it make it  more "expensive" overall.

If the material presented for Discovery 1789 represents what you have to work with, and Discovery itself is a specific target, a bit of compromise in ambition may worth considering.  There are no lines plans.  Never mind Body, neither of the other two planes are available either.  (A merchant ship, built in a private yard may have never had plans as we know them.  If there were plans, they were probably viewed as disposable, either by the owner or his inheritors.) 
 
With a bit of obsessiveness, a reasonably  accurate waterline model may be possible using the two NMM plans. 
 
The masting and rigging would be about as accurate most any of our models if you use the same references.
What is available for HMS Chatham = ?
 
There is another candidate for PNW.  The Peacock II 1828 was a corvette that was eaten by the bar of the Columbia River.  HIC redrafted (?) her lines, so they are available.  So too are the lines for the other three squadron mates who survived their encounter with the PNW.  They are Vincennes, Flying Fish, and Porpoise II and all are part of the S.I. collection.  Well, Flying Fish is in a really grey area - the plans are John McKeon. To match the published dimensions of Independence (what the USN renamed as Flying Fish) I scaled the breath and depth up 110% and added 2" to each space.  The overall shape of New York pilot schooners of the times was pretty well set - (adapted from a Norfolk developed model).  Someone at S.I. thought it was close enough.
 
For a first scratch venture,  I suggest that a wise choice would be to limit the number of new challenges.  I would start with a subject that has existing plans.  Ideal is a monograph where the frame lofting work has been done and the details drawn.
 
Now - removing my 'any pretense to faculty' hat and strictly in my curmudgeon hat:
 
Presupposing that your objective is  POF   - a popular choice is the Swan series (but probably too oft traveled) or much less often done, one of the smaller ANCRE subjects ( with frame lofting already done).  For a first outing, it may be prudent to give any attention to internal detail a pass.  Totally plank the hull and deck and save fabricating the guts and really complicated bits like cant frames and butt chocks  for a later project. (Assuming that you ever come to care about that sort of thing.)  
If solid (laminations) is your method there are many more possibilities.
 
Something here that dismayed me at first is the popularity of scratch POB.  The whole process is really ugly and an insult to the beauty that is a ship's hull.  It may be a bit quick and dirty, but I can't get past how cheesy it looks.  Once it is covered up, it does not matter, but I would always know if I did it that way.
 

Make friends with a nearby pharmacy tech.  Some pharmaceuticals still come in small glass bottles and they are just pitched into the trash - unless the Rx is for the amount in the bottle. 
There are Science "surplus" web vendors who sell a variety of small glass bottles.
 
I share your sense of wastefulness with your present process.  But step back and look at a wider perspective.  The variables involved with an alternative probably make it make it  more "expensive" overall.

Make friends with a nearby pharmacy tech.  Some pharmaceuticals still come in small glass bottles and they are just pitched into the trash - unless the Rx is for the amount in the bottle. 
There are Science "surplus" web vendors who sell a variety of small glass bottles.
 
I share your sense of wastefulness with your present process.  But step back and look at a wider perspective.  The variables involved with an alternative probably make it make it  more "expensive" overall.

If you do a deep search into the vessel name, location and captain - you have a high probability of discovering that the vessel is not a clipper.
The time of the clippers was 20 years earlier.
The hull looks a bit short and small to be rigged as a clipper.
A combination of schooner and ship rig had become popular because a smaller crew was needed.
I would bet, the fore was square rigged and the mizzen was schooner rigged.  The main? Flip a coin, but I bet schooner.
Rather than directly use a commercial kit rigging plan, go to the same sources that they used.  There are several books on rigging that were published about that time.  There are books for modelers that extracted and made systematic the information from those original sources.  
For the large and cutthroat sailing ships, an age of ugliness in rigging was coming into use around 1874 = steel lines, chain, turnbuckles.  An actual clipper in 1874 probably was rigged using the new tech.   I am betting that the model that you have is a bit more prosaic.  The rigging was probably still natural fiber. Any further information is likely to provide an identification for the actual rig. 
A barque is easier to rig.

The photo below shows wood species from my wood pile.  From the top of the photo down: Holly, Lilac, Buckthorn.  
 
Relative Hardnesses:  Basswood. 410
                                      Buckthorn.  1040
                                     Hard Maple. 1450
                                     Lilac.   2350
 

 
Both Lilac and Buckthorn have tight, fine, and unabtrusive  grain structures.  According to the Wooddatabase both can be us d for small carvings.  When cut and planed both had a polished surface.   Lilac could be used for carvings and turnings.  Buckthorn in larger sizes could be used for POF structural members.
 
The small clump trees in the next photo are Buckthorn growing on the edge of my yard.
 

 
I have some experience with Chestnut.  In 1960 my parents had a pile of wormy Chestnut lumber milled into tongue and groove paneling.  It was quite soft, had a very pronounced grain structure, not unlike Oak, except that it has very dark bands between adjacent grain sections.  It made a nice backboard for a half model but I would consider it to be unsuitable for other ship modeling uses.
 
Roger
 
 

Here there are two types. 
 
Black Locust - I think it is a legume and is able to grow in poor soil. I had some in my fence row. The seed pods resemble 5x large butter bean pods. If lawn litter is an issue, you do not want one.  One Spring I was in the parking lot at Shakertown, and there were closely planted rows of Black Locust in bloom.  Their perfume was bliss.  The wood is resistant to rot due to ground moisture or termites - fence posts.  As a wood for ship models, it is not very desirable.
 
Honey Locust - I have a minor supply from a dealer in wood for smoking meat.  I think it has great promise for frames and such, but I did not score enough and the supplier was defeated by the economics and could not sustain the business.
 
Hully is a superb wood for modeling. Hard, tight, almost no grain and has no peer at bending.  The commercial supply is very white.  This requires extraordinary effort to maintain when the wood is harvested, the tree is not large so it comes at a high price and is generally in short supply.  
Old time writers mentioned decks being holystoned white.  This was poetic exaggeration. No tree that is used for decking has white wood.  But it is a modelers convention to use Holly for decks for some of us.  Holly is prone to infection by Blue Mold.  It invades quickly when the tree is cut. It turns the wood grey or light blue. The wood is just as sound as the white wood, but infected wood is not sold.  The infected wood would probably make for a more realistic deck color.  I scored a supply from a strain of Holly that has yellow wood. I am happy with it.  My cousin, who supplied it, has a tree farm, but there is no market for yellow Holly.   Holly takes a dye very well.  Dyed black, it should rival Ebony.  It bends better and does not generate the awful sawdust.   With the right shade of dye, it can be any color desired.
 
My cousin also sees it as a problem that Sweet Gum is wide spread and prolific on his land.  It is considered little better than pallet wood as far as how much he can get for it.  He had none cut to let me try.

I made an inquiry at The Mariner's about what this species is.  They sent a copy of data about Washington Hawthorn.  Here, firethorn is a name for Pyracantha.  This is usually a foundation planted species.  It is in the Rose family and is hard enough to serve for carving, but does not usually have much bulk. It is a stick most often.
I planted a mail order lot of Washington Hawthorn while living in KY, but I only heeled it in, lost interest and sold the 5 acres  it was on before the plants grew to any usable size.  I have not found any since.

AYC has slight grain, is tight,straight, no open pores, holds a sharp edge, the fibers do not roll  - but is very soft, but it is harder than Basswood
 
Red Alder seems to have an unobtrusive grain pattern, you would have to work it to see how well it holds a sharp edge  - similar to AYC in hardness.
( As firewood, I suspect that a log does not last long and the ash to heat ration is not that favorable.)
 
Hazel  -  a search yields ambiguous results as far as what it really is like as timber.
One fork leads to Birch - which is close enough to Hard Maple in hardness and texture and reasonable grain figure (depending on how it is sliced off) to warrant a prime position.
Another fork leads to Hornbeam (American) harder than Hard Maple, a texture that is at least as favorable.  If this is it, it would rate a higher position.
A third fork has no data - you would have to explore its possibilities.
 
Impish humor is my intent from here on.
 
I prefer hard,  so I would investigate Hazel first in your place.  If it is everything that can be wished for, horde it, get way more than you think you will ever need.
 
Ideally, you would stumble across an old farm with large sound but past their prime Apple trees, do a Canadian chainsaw massacre,   seal the ends, debark, billet, and sticker enough to fill a walk-in storage unit.  But since Apple sap has a lot of sugar, kiln drying it is probably prudent.
 
Unless you go meshugena as far as scale (Gaetan, do you have a walkout garage door, or will you have to blast a hole in a wall of your basement to get that 74 out?)  or prefer large versions of small craft - 1:48 should be the upper range of your scale.  Look at a piece of Oak and imagine what the grain and surface would look like were it 50 times smaller - there would be no grain pattern and the surface would be tight and smooth. 
This is the ideal.  If going with natural wood, the color of the wood for your model falls into the world of artist's choice.  
Aniline wood dyes offer the possibility of a wider pallet - usually darker - than just wood as it comes - but I do not see anyone using them.
To dye wood is not the same thing as staining it.
A stain is a type of paint.  Using a stain on quality wood is like tagging the Mona Lisa.  Erase the thought of using a stain from your mind.

The supposition that nothing is known about Sea Witch is totally false.
These ships were not subjects for mass production and keeping secrete a new and successful design was not done.  John W. Griffiths was all about reputation and accolades about his skill as a naval architect. To quote Chapelle  in SSUS:
"Sea Witch is the only named clipper ship whose offsets he published, and her lines and sail plan are one of three designs of his clippers that he retained.  These are now in the Museum of History and Technology...."
HIC drafted these plans for publication. Copies of these plan are available for purchase from S.I.   The Mariner's also sells plans from a different draftsman that are not near as good.
There is a serious question about the location of the bowsprit relative to the foredeck.  There is a paper that explores this in the NRJ.  No citation, and I am not sure whether it is CD 1 or CD 2.  Anyone serious about this field, should either own both CDs or have the physical volumes.  I go with the new ideas presented in the paper.
 
The facts about what constitutes a valid historically important model as opposed to being decoration are inconvenient and uncomfortable.  For most kits, being the former is not realistic.  But when scratch building a subject that does not otherwise exist, it is important not to mislead posterity. It should be clear where speculation, reconstruction and fantasy are used.  Specious hyperbole will not refute this.

Here there are two types. 
 
Black Locust - I think it is a legume and is able to grow in poor soil. I had some in my fence row. The seed pods resemble 5x large butter bean pods. If lawn litter is an issue, you do not want one.  One Spring I was in the parking lot at Shakertown, and there were closely planted rows of Black Locust in bloom.  Their perfume was bliss.  The wood is resistant to rot due to ground moisture or termites - fence posts.  As a wood for ship models, it is not very desirable.
 
Honey Locust - I have a minor supply from a dealer in wood for smoking meat.  I think it has great promise for frames and such, but I did not score enough and the supplier was defeated by the economics and could not sustain the business.
 
Hully is a superb wood for modeling. Hard, tight, almost no grain and has no peer at bending.  The commercial supply is very white.  This requires extraordinary effort to maintain when the wood is harvested, the tree is not large so it comes at a high price and is generally in short supply.  
Old time writers mentioned decks being holystoned white.  This was poetic exaggeration. No tree that is used for decking has white wood.  But it is a modelers convention to use Holly for decks for some of us.  Holly is prone to infection by Blue Mold.  It invades quickly when the tree is cut. It turns the wood grey or light blue. The wood is just as sound as the white wood, but infected wood is not sold.  The infected wood would probably make for a more realistic deck color.  I scored a supply from a strain of Holly that has yellow wood. I am happy with it.  My cousin, who supplied it, has a tree farm, but there is no market for yellow Holly.   Holly takes a dye very well.  Dyed black, it should rival Ebony.  It bends better and does not generate the awful sawdust.   With the right shade of dye, it can be any color desired.
 
My cousin also sees it as a problem that Sweet Gum is wide spread and prolific on his land.  It is considered little better than pallet wood as far as how much he can get for it.  He had none cut to let me try.

Clear, quick set, absolutely no shear stress or prise struss -  cellulose nitrate adhesive - Duco here-  maybe Ambroid in some places?
 
I would not use it to assemble a model, but it is quick and dirty to fit a round toothpick into a piece of stiff packing foam to use as a custom size PVA spreader, applicator.

It looks closer to Oak than Maple to me, but not either family.
A bit coarse looking,  I would use a lens and poke at the white streaks with a sharp awl point to determine the hardness there.  I would be concerned that the white was a destructive fungal intrusion.

My news sources are too awash with domestic news to feature this,  but has the UK pretty much finally  cut the painter and is floating alone as a market? 
I see an opportunity for UK members form a co-op here to see if a single mass purchase of Sea Watch books and Byrnes machines would reduce shipping costs. This is an idea fraught with danger for the one advancing the money.  There tends to be some who start with enthusiasm but back out when money comes due.  Up front money first is probably the safer way.  An ideal situation would be if one of you had more money than sense, and became an authorized wholesaler/ distributor. "Depending on the kindness of strangers" is a really bad idea for a wholesaler when determining how much to order.  This sort of comes down to -how badly does a bunch you want this?  It only will cost time to explore it.

Fitting and Rigging a 74-gun Model Ship
Francis Jonet
ANCRE (www.ancre.fr) – December,2020
118 pages-color photos-diagrams
This is an updated reprint of the original book’s first printing and is available in French, English, Spanish, and Italian.
 
 
 
 
Overview:
While not part of the seminal books by Boudroit of the 74 Gun Ship series, it is an add-on that complements the series. This book provides references and how-to instructions.  Numerous images (both color photos, drawings, and tables) illustrate the items and the techniques using a minimum number of tools.  Everything included relates to construction of the 74-gun ship from late 18th to the early 19th centuries.  Do note that the first chapter is dedicated to finishing the upper works and fittings as well as what’s required to add the rigging. 
 

Contents by Chapter and sub-headings:
Chapter I – Fittings and more, Tools, Laminates, The sandpaper file, Working on the stern and stem, Making gratings, Upper deck and Poop deck breastwork, The breast rail stanchions and belaying pins, Ladders, Shroud chains, Anchors, The guns, The figurehead, The stern lantern
 
Chapter II - The Masts – Making the spars, Lower mast and lower yard hoops, The yardarms, Building the tops, Topgallant trestletrees and crosstrees.
 
Chapter III – Blocks – Preparing slats, Making the shells, Finishing the blocks
Chapter IV - Rope Work – The workspace, Theory, In practice, Serving, Particular cases for small cables
 
Chapter V – Finishing the Ropework – Eyes and mouse (stays), Shroud masthead rigging, Rope bights, The shrouds, Wall knots, Ratlings, Hammock nettings, To clap on blocks to the yards, Small block straps, The thimbles or rings, Hooked return blocks, The anchor buoys
 
Chapter VI – Making the Sails – The cloths, Tabling, Linings and patches, Eyelets, Bolt ropes, Foot ropes, Head ropes, Bolt ropes cringles, Reef point, Gaskets, Grommets, The bent sails
 
Chapter Vii – Installation of the Sails – Leading and belaying the ropes, Jibs, Staysails, Lower sails, Topsails and mizzen topsail, Topgallant sails and mizzen top gallant, Driver, Jib sheets and Installation of anchors, Finishing the Installation of square sails, Staysails sheets, Inspection of the work done
 
Chapter VIII – The Ship’s Boat – Construction method, The forms, Framing, Keel, Stem, and Sternpost, Sterns, Planking, Form removal, Stern sheets, Floor timber and inner planking, Thwarts, Stem and stern inner areas, Rudders, Finishing details
 
Chapter IX – Technical Data – Making the ropes, Shrouds, back-stays, stays, Preventer stays, bowsprit mast, Catharpins, range cleats, belaying cleats, Blocks, sheet blocks, staysail stays, bolt ropes, foot ropes, etc. Fall tackles, yard tackles, Sail tackles, anchor ropes and cables, Yard rigging, Lower sail clusters, blocks for the stays
 
Chapter X – Block Distribution – Rigging parts for the masts and for the operation of the yards, Rigging parts for the operation of the sails, Rigging parts for the operation of guns.
 
Chapter X – Return Tacks – Forecastle, Quarterdeck, Poop deck.
 
Technical Data – Tables for all of the rigging, blocks, and tackle sizes,
 
Review:
This is basically a journey, in which shows not just the author’s successes but also his failures, both of which are useful.  Every chapter details the jigs he used along with the methods, along with photos of this process which, was eye-opening to me and would be useful (with modification) of any ship of the period.

 
While there are minimal plans (you will need the monograph for the model you’re building), the appendix has much to offer in the way of tables which not only surprised me but somewhat overwhelmed me by the amount of data there.
 
The book is well-written with the photos being annotated to explain what is being done. Everything is broken down into bite-sized chunks and processes used explained.

 
Though I have no intention of building a 74, as my preference is frigates, the same techniques and tools will be very useful and save me a lot of “re-do’s” and figuring out how to do it.
 
Would I recommend this book?  Yes, very much so as it will help any builder come terms with the complicated rigging.  I’ve decided that this is one the books to keep at all times near my workbench instead of in the library.  I really can’t recommend this enough.
 

AYC has slight grain, is tight,straight, no open pores, holds a sharp edge, the fibers do not roll  - but is very soft, but it is harder than Basswood
 
Red Alder seems to have an unobtrusive grain pattern, you would have to work it to see how well it holds a sharp edge  - similar to AYC in hardness.
( As firewood, I suspect that a log does not last long and the ash to heat ration is not that favorable.)
 
Hazel  -  a search yields ambiguous results as far as what it really is like as timber.
One fork leads to Birch - which is close enough to Hard Maple in hardness and texture and reasonable grain figure (depending on how it is sliced off) to warrant a prime position.
Another fork leads to Hornbeam (American) harder than Hard Maple, a texture that is at least as favorable.  If this is it, it would rate a higher position.
A third fork has no data - you would have to explore its possibilities.
 
Impish humor is my intent from here on.
 
I prefer hard,  so I would investigate Hazel first in your place.  If it is everything that can be wished for, horde it, get way more than you think you will ever need.
 
Ideally, you would stumble across an old farm with large sound but past their prime Apple trees, do a Canadian chainsaw massacre,   seal the ends, debark, billet, and sticker enough to fill a walk-in storage unit.  But since Apple sap has a lot of sugar, kiln drying it is probably prudent.
 
Unless you go meshugena as far as scale (Gaetan, do you have a walkout garage door, or will you have to blast a hole in a wall of your basement to get that 74 out?)  or prefer large versions of small craft - 1:48 should be the upper range of your scale.  Look at a piece of Oak and imagine what the grain and surface would look like were it 50 times smaller - there would be no grain pattern and the surface would be tight and smooth. 
This is the ideal.  If going with natural wood, the color of the wood for your model falls into the world of artist's choice.  
Aniline wood dyes offer the possibility of a wider pallet - usually darker - than just wood as it comes - but I do not see anyone using them.
To dye wood is not the same thing as staining it.
A stain is a type of paint.  Using a stain on quality wood is like tagging the Mona Lisa.  Erase the thought of using a stain from your mind.

I was penny wise and pound foolish in doing a Craig's list purchase.
A picker was disposing his estate sale load of 50+ y/o attic or barn loft stored hardwood.
Most of the Maple was a disaster - part had deep checking and fungal rot (firewood)- one was Ambrosia - no use to me
What was supposed to Black Cherry - was significantly harder than Maple and very dense (about twice as heavy as Hard Maple) - the red is bit more red - the grain is a bit open.  It looks like Elm in its grain pattern.  I bought some surplus stock ( too twisted to machine plane) from a KY cabinet maker just to see how his species would fit.  The Sassafras is terrible - the grain looks like ocean waves - the Elm (red) is too soft and open.  But the grain pattern is close to that of the harder (cherry) Elm - I am tentatively  identifying  it as Rock Elm.  I have not found any other source of it for comparison.  Extinct due to Dutch Elm disease?  At any rate, I would not go out of my way to obtain any more.

Gaetan,
You are spot on about the difference in effort expended in sanding or cutting between Black Cherry and Hard Maple.  Maple requires a lot of work. But, Buxus s. is significantly harder than Hard Maple. 
In light of the obsession with Boxwood,  Buxus s. is about 1.5 times harder than Castelo, which is 1.25 times harder than Hard Maple.  Depending on your focus, relative hardness has not been a determining factor.
 
If no grain is the important characteristic,  Chuck has the answer with Alaskan Yellow Cedar.  It does not get much more reduced than that.  I think Port Orford Cedar is similar.  But it is not much easier to source than AYC.   
 
Out of necessity, I concede some grain.  We are using wood after all.  I am happy if the wood does not have open pores and the difference between Spring and Summer bands is moderate..  Oak, Ash, Hickory when scaled have pores large enough to be soup bowls @ 1:48 and most Walnut species are not much better. 
 
An interesting species is Bradford Pear.  It is hard and has a bit of a waxy surface.  But it grows fast and it is possible to get a surface for a frame that has 1 - 1.5 year's growth rings. It is a bear to cut with a chisel too. It was/is popular for municipal street planting,  Attractive blooms, leaves, relatively compact, easy to care for, but for one characteristic = it branches a lot and the branches are at an acute angle.  Their mechanical attachment to the main trunk becomes less as the branches increase in size over time.  A powerful wind storm can split off most or all of them.  It sort of looks like a peeled banana  with just the peel.  After a major storm, it is easy to get a serious supply.