Bill Tuttle

I am getting into this way too late but what about PegBoards.  I never seem to have enough pegboard space or wall to house them.

About the model:
As they say, "No time like the present" and as I'm stalled on Licorne by several non-hobby issues, I'm starting this one to take my mind off things.  I have the plans scaled down from 1:48 to 1:64 I'll be drafting plans for building the ship as the ANCRE monograph doesn't have drawings pre-made for such things a frames, keel, etc.
 
As the title states it will be a POB build as there's next to nothing in the plans of the below deck area. 
 
I'm making decisions at this point will working on lofting the bulkheads, keel, etc. on the types of woods.  Most likely I'll Swiss pear for the external planking, some ebony or ebony stained wood for the wales and other bits and pieces, boxwood for the keel, stern post, and bowspit.  Not sure yet about the decks.   As for the bulkheads and some internal bits that won't be seen, I'm deciding whether to use Baltic Birch plywood or Yellow Ceder.  It may come down to cost on this though.  I'll be using the DeathStar for at least marking the wood to be cut for the bulkheads but not ruling out cutting as that will depend on the wood selection.
 
I selected this ship as "next" as it was the more famous of the ships involved in the battle that brought the French into American Revolutionary War.   
 
Here's the history of Belle Poule and some pictures of the plans and the monograph.
 
La Belle Poule is a 12-pounder class of frigate with 26 12-pdrs on the gun deck and 10 6-pdrs on the forecastle and sterncastle.   
 
History:
 
La Belle Poule was built in the shipyard at Bordeaux starting in 1765 and launched in 1767.  \
 
From 1772 to 1776, she was on hydrographic missions around India.
 
She returned to Brest in 1776 .  At the time, France wasn't engaged in War, but there were numerous incidents.  
 
April, 1777, Belle Poule was chased by a British ship of the line (unknown which one) and after evading her, returned to Brest.
 
December, 1777, Belle Poule transported Silas Deane back to America along with the news of the French-American Alliance.
 
On 7 January, 1778, she was stopped by two Britich ships of the line which demanded to inspect her and her Captian, Charles de Bernard de Marigny replied:  "I am the Belle Poule, frigate of the King of France; I sail from sea and I sail to sea. Vessels of the King, my master, never allow inspections."
 
17 June, 1778.   The famous battle between Belle Poule and Arethusa occurred which was actually celebrated by both countries.  It was this battle that brought France into the American Revolutionary War.  Note that Licorne was captured by the British.
 
After this battle, she did numerous patrols.
 
14 July 1780.   Belle Poule was overhauled and after a two hour battle with Noncuch (64), she surrendered.
 
Feburary, 1781.  Belle Poule was commissioned by the British.   She participated in the Battle of Dogger Bank later that year.  A footnote is that her Master during this period was William Bligh.
 
November 1782.  Belle Poule went to ordinary and also served as a British recieving ship.  
 
1801.  She was sold off.
 
Plans, etc.
 
I'm using the following references:
 
Le Belle Poule Monograh by Boudriot and Berti
The Art of Ship Modeling by Frolich
and lastly, the only build log I could find that actually is showing the process unlike most that just show the finished ship:  https://5500.forumactif.org/t3216-la-belle-poule-de-1765-au-1-48-par-guydal
 
Anyway, a bit long winded but I'll be back when I have my cut sheets, plans, etc. ready and start making sawdust.
 

Hazel -- from what I can find from the Wood Database - this looks to be a promising species
Pacific Dogwood - if it is similar to Cornus florida - our state flower - you have something special - great for carvings, delicate or strength wanted deck furniture - blocks, deadeyes - do not waste it on parts like frames, beams, planking - unless your supply of it is large and limitless.
Crab Apple -  most any fruit wood is more than excellent.  I consider Apple to be a king.  It is just difficult for me to source.
Yew  -  They do or did make a vary toxic chemo agent from this - I suggest that getting up close and personal with it is not a good idea
Viburnum  -  not a clue, I would have to see it.  But, I see arrow wood as a characteristic associated with it.  Was it  the Apache who used reeds?  Straight, light weight, and had hollow point characteristics on impact?   If it is pithy I would stay away.  For spars, dowels are subject to problems, I would be cautious with a rod that Nature made, no matter how straight.
Juniper - if it is similar to our Red Cedar - I would not use it.
 
Frame spacing -  there is no simple answer - there are no rules pf the sort that you are seeking.  It pretty much varied from ship to ship. There were fads, even with the RN.  It could be seriously different at 20 year intervals.  The RN was down right peculiar and obsessively detailed in their framing.  But not at all predictable from ship class to ship class in what those details were.
There is another factor in play: POF scratch modelers.  If a model has frames showing, unless it was a classroom engineering model or a tech demo model, there is a good chance that the framing is stylized.  It was probably built to show off the frames.  The actual frames were probably so close together that they would be quite unattractive to display.
 
From your questions, I am guessing that you are just now dipping your toe into all this.
Any sailing warship of the line is difficult slog for the most skilled of us.  HMS Leopard  is not as overwhelming  as Victory or Sovereign, but it is a huge bite. 
In your place, I would begin with something much smaller.  I would do POF, but totally plank the outside and the deck.  I would wait until I had a much deeper understanding of this complex subject and a lot of build experience before attempting to build a model showing the guts of the thing.
 
But to clarify where I am coming from:  I am much attracted to open framing below the wale - My favorite is the stylized 17th century Navy Board.
The framing above the wale is about as interesting to me as 2x4 house framing.  I think it mostly had the same utilitarian function. To me it is pug ugly.  I am also not all that enamored with omitting desk planking either.

I agree with you.  I was a Commercial Banker for 40 years and in the early years of my career when I did consumer lending you could tell a customer to go ahead and write a check and come in and sign the note later.  Couldn't do that now.  
 
Mihail's service as well as Jim's is beyond compare.  I just hope someone else jumps on these carving tools.  They are really great tools. 
 
There is a learning curve on sharpening and I am still a novice on these.  I use shapton ceramic stones on my chisels and planes and can put an edge on those that scares me but these tiny little gouges are not easy.  I am even sharpening them under a low powered microscope.  I am getting better just have to use a light touch.

found on net.

I just finished using some of these carving tools that I bought from Mihail three years or so ago.  I had misplaced my instructions for sharpening that he supplied and found a need to contact him again for help.  He provided me with a detailed e-mail regarding the sharpening process.  I can only applaud again these tools as they are the best small carving tools I have found.  In this correspondence, he mentioned to me that he still had three sets left for sale at $420.00.  Just wanted to post this as he travels somewhere in the summer and these will not be available again until around October.  If anyone is interested let me know and I will provide his e-mail as we have done in the past.

I bought mine on E-Bay and like everything on E-Bay sometimes they go at a very reasonable price and other times way out of range.  Once you get them you will not know how you lived without them.  Get a good pair, rack and pinion, I bought a pair from MicroMark years ago but I do not think they are rack and pinion.  In my opinion you would be better off with a good used pair from E-Bay.  

Ron,
 
I can only further confirm what you have already heard.  I have been building models for over 45 years and have purchased every table saw made trying to get perfection.  The only thing close to any of this was the Preac Saw and you were severely limited to size.  I certainly can't acknowledge any problems with the Proxxon Saw because I have seen so many people praising this, but I can say you will not find a better model saw than the Jim Saw and he will stand behind this to the end.  His customer service is beyond compare and his product is wonderful.  Congratulations on you purchase!!!

This reply is directed at the warranty comments made by Gregory in the previous post.  I carried a socket wrench into the local large Sears store for replacement. The clerk dug around in a box under the counter and came up with an old socket wrench to replace my like new inoperable one. I queried him regarding the guarantee and he said that was no longer effective. I haven’t nor will I ever buy a Craftsman tool since then. Furthermore I wrote a letter to the President of Sears relating this experience and I never received a reply.  Sad situation as these were very good tools at one time. I see Lowe’s has taken over the line and I am not sure what their guaranty is but I am through with the line and their products. 

Ron,
 
I can only further confirm what you have already heard.  I have been building models for over 45 years and have purchased every table saw made trying to get perfection.  The only thing close to any of this was the Preac Saw and you were severely limited to size.  I certainly can't acknowledge any problems with the Proxxon Saw because I have seen so many people praising this, but I can say you will not find a better model saw than the Jim Saw and he will stand behind this to the end.  His customer service is beyond compare and his product is wonderful.  Congratulations on you purchase!!!

This reply is directed at the warranty comments made by Gregory in the previous post.  I carried a socket wrench into the local large Sears store for replacement. The clerk dug around in a box under the counter and came up with an old socket wrench to replace my like new inoperable one. I queried him regarding the guarantee and he said that was no longer effective. I haven’t nor will I ever buy a Craftsman tool since then. Furthermore I wrote a letter to the President of Sears relating this experience and I never received a reply.  Sad situation as these were very good tools at one time. I see Lowe’s has taken over the line and I am not sure what their guaranty is but I am through with the line and their products. 

Ron,
 
I can only further confirm what you have already heard.  I have been building models for over 45 years and have purchased every table saw made trying to get perfection.  The only thing close to any of this was the Preac Saw and you were severely limited to size.  I certainly can't acknowledge any problems with the Proxxon Saw because I have seen so many people praising this, but I can say you will not find a better model saw than the Jim Saw and he will stand behind this to the end.  His customer service is beyond compare and his product is wonderful.  Congratulations on you purchase!!!

This reply is directed at the warranty comments made by Gregory in the previous post.  I carried a socket wrench into the local large Sears store for replacement. The clerk dug around in a box under the counter and came up with an old socket wrench to replace my like new inoperable one. I queried him regarding the guarantee and he said that was no longer effective. I haven’t nor will I ever buy a Craftsman tool since then. Furthermore I wrote a letter to the President of Sears relating this experience and I never received a reply.  Sad situation as these were very good tools at one time. I see Lowe’s has taken over the line and I am not sure what their guaranty is but I am through with the line and their products. 

I agree with you.  I was a Commercial Banker for 40 years and in the early years of my career when I did consumer lending you could tell a customer to go ahead and write a check and come in and sign the note later.  Couldn't do that now.  
 
Mihail's service as well as Jim's is beyond compare.  I just hope someone else jumps on these carving tools.  They are really great tools. 
 
There is a learning curve on sharpening and I am still a novice on these.  I use shapton ceramic stones on my chisels and planes and can put an edge on those that scares me but these tiny little gouges are not easy.  I am even sharpening them under a low powered microscope.  I am getting better just have to use a light touch.

John
 
Don't know what everyone else does but this is what I do.  If you're cutting planks say 3/16" wide x 1/16  thick what I do first is cut my stock from a billet on the band saw about 7/32 wide x 2" .  Then I run them through the thickness sander down to 3/16" so now I have a piece of stock 3/16 x 2"  + or -.001 on the 3/16 thickness.  Then to the saw with a 3"  .03 slitting blade and cut the planks 1/16 thick.  After you glue the planks on you're going to sand them so the 1/6 thickness really doesn't matter much
 
regards
Jim
 
 

Ron,
 
I can only further confirm what you have already heard.  I have been building models for over 45 years and have purchased every table saw made trying to get perfection.  The only thing close to any of this was the Preac Saw and you were severely limited to size.  I certainly can't acknowledge any problems with the Proxxon Saw because I have seen so many people praising this, but I can say you will not find a better model saw than the Jim Saw and he will stand behind this to the end.  His customer service is beyond compare and his product is wonderful.  Congratulations on you purchase!!!

Does your not have a top-slide ? Turning the whole carriage with the crank at the bed on the right seems to be rather cumbersome and it seems difficult to crank, keep an eye on dial readings and watch what happens. How do you turn the taper without top-slide ?
 
Most of my turning of such things is done with a knife-tool that I grind from a HSS-bit. For such dimensions the width at the front should equal or be less then the shortest between two rings. The most used tool has a width of only 0.4 mm at the front and clearance on three sides. In this way I can turn to the left and the right without changing the tool.
I normally make myself a dimensioned sketch and then decide on zero points for movements in both, x- and y-direction. I then note down in the sketch how much I need to move the carriage between the rings, taking into consideration also the width of the tool at the front. In order to avoid backlash issues, all the turning is done in one direction only. In this way I avoid measuring on the workpiece (at least for duplicates). With such a procedure you can turn out identical pieces within the accuracy limits of your machine.
 
If the rings on the cannon need to be rounded, there are two options: you can use either a file to do that or using a forming tool in a secondary operation. As you don't seem to have a QCTP, chaning tools might not be such a good option though.

I just finished using some of these carving tools that I bought from Mihail three years or so ago.  I had misplaced my instructions for sharpening that he supplied and found a need to contact him again for help.  He provided me with a detailed e-mail regarding the sharpening process.  I can only applaud again these tools as they are the best small carving tools I have found.  In this correspondence, he mentioned to me that he still had three sets left for sale at $420.00.  Just wanted to post this as he travels somewhere in the summer and these will not be available again until around October.  If anyone is interested let me know and I will provide his e-mail as we have done in the past.

I just finished using some of these carving tools that I bought from Mihail three years or so ago.  I had misplaced my instructions for sharpening that he supplied and found a need to contact him again for help.  He provided me with a detailed e-mail regarding the sharpening process.  I can only applaud again these tools as they are the best small carving tools I have found.  In this correspondence, he mentioned to me that he still had three sets left for sale at $420.00.  Just wanted to post this as he travels somewhere in the summer and these will not be available again until around October.  If anyone is interested let me know and I will provide his e-mail as we have done in the past.

Fitting and Rigging a 74-gun Model Ship
Francis Jonet
ANCRE (www.ancre.fr) – December,2020
118 pages-color photos-diagrams
This is an updated reprint of the original book’s first printing and is available in French, English, Spanish, and Italian.
 
 
 
 
Overview:
While not part of the seminal books by Boudroit of the 74 Gun Ship series, it is an add-on that complements the series. This book provides references and how-to instructions.  Numerous images (both color photos, drawings, and tables) illustrate the items and the techniques using a minimum number of tools.  Everything included relates to construction of the 74-gun ship from late 18th to the early 19th centuries.  Do note that the first chapter is dedicated to finishing the upper works and fittings as well as what’s required to add the rigging. 
 

Contents by Chapter and sub-headings:
Chapter I – Fittings and more, Tools, Laminates, The sandpaper file, Working on the stern and stem, Making gratings, Upper deck and Poop deck breastwork, The breast rail stanchions and belaying pins, Ladders, Shroud chains, Anchors, The guns, The figurehead, The stern lantern
 
Chapter II - The Masts – Making the spars, Lower mast and lower yard hoops, The yardarms, Building the tops, Topgallant trestletrees and crosstrees.
 
Chapter III – Blocks – Preparing slats, Making the shells, Finishing the blocks
Chapter IV - Rope Work – The workspace, Theory, In practice, Serving, Particular cases for small cables
 
Chapter V – Finishing the Ropework – Eyes and mouse (stays), Shroud masthead rigging, Rope bights, The shrouds, Wall knots, Ratlings, Hammock nettings, To clap on blocks to the yards, Small block straps, The thimbles or rings, Hooked return blocks, The anchor buoys
 
Chapter VI – Making the Sails – The cloths, Tabling, Linings and patches, Eyelets, Bolt ropes, Foot ropes, Head ropes, Bolt ropes cringles, Reef point, Gaskets, Grommets, The bent sails
 
Chapter Vii – Installation of the Sails – Leading and belaying the ropes, Jibs, Staysails, Lower sails, Topsails and mizzen topsail, Topgallant sails and mizzen top gallant, Driver, Jib sheets and Installation of anchors, Finishing the Installation of square sails, Staysails sheets, Inspection of the work done
 
Chapter VIII – The Ship’s Boat – Construction method, The forms, Framing, Keel, Stem, and Sternpost, Sterns, Planking, Form removal, Stern sheets, Floor timber and inner planking, Thwarts, Stem and stern inner areas, Rudders, Finishing details
 
Chapter IX – Technical Data – Making the ropes, Shrouds, back-stays, stays, Preventer stays, bowsprit mast, Catharpins, range cleats, belaying cleats, Blocks, sheet blocks, staysail stays, bolt ropes, foot ropes, etc. Fall tackles, yard tackles, Sail tackles, anchor ropes and cables, Yard rigging, Lower sail clusters, blocks for the stays
 
Chapter X – Block Distribution – Rigging parts for the masts and for the operation of the yards, Rigging parts for the operation of the sails, Rigging parts for the operation of guns.
 
Chapter X – Return Tacks – Forecastle, Quarterdeck, Poop deck.
 
Technical Data – Tables for all of the rigging, blocks, and tackle sizes,
 
Review:
This is basically a journey, in which shows not just the author’s successes but also his failures, both of which are useful.  Every chapter details the jigs he used along with the methods, along with photos of this process which, was eye-opening to me and would be useful (with modification) of any ship of the period.

 
While there are minimal plans (you will need the monograph for the model you’re building), the appendix has much to offer in the way of tables which not only surprised me but somewhat overwhelmed me by the amount of data there.
 
The book is well-written with the photos being annotated to explain what is being done. Everything is broken down into bite-sized chunks and processes used explained.

 
Though I have no intention of building a 74, as my preference is frigates, the same techniques and tools will be very useful and save me a lot of “re-do’s” and figuring out how to do it.
 
Would I recommend this book?  Yes, very much so as it will help any builder come terms with the complicated rigging.  I’ve decided that this is one the books to keep at all times near my workbench instead of in the library.  I really can’t recommend this enough.
 

Fellow Modelmakers,
 
I am bringing this subject back to life for two reasons.  First of all to thank Druxey for his original post of introduction to Mihail Kirsanov and his fine chisels as well as Vossiwulf for the pictures and review that he posted.  Secondly, to let everyone know that these are available again for anyone interested.
 
After reading the original posts, I contacted Michael and attempted to order a set of these only to find that he was out of town and would not be producing them until October of this year.  By some stroke of luck, my feeble mind recalled this information and I contacted him in October and ordered a set.  As previously noted by others, the order from Russia was painless, paid with PayPal and received the chisels within 16-20 days of shipping.  I do not want to bore you folks with a reiteration of the past posts but these chisels are beautiful and far superior to anything I have seen offered anywhere else.  I have seen pictures of his model work and he is also a fine modelmaker as you would expect.  As mentioned before, there will be a learning curve on sharpening but Michael provides instructions for this by e-mail. 
 
Druxey has previously offered to provide his contact info if interested and I will do the same by PM.  I would also remind you as stated in the previous e-mails that Mihail does not speak English so you will have to use some form of translation software.  I found Google to be very easy to use. 

Continuation. 
 

 
 

 
Pawel 

I would have to second Jim's comment on the starrett pin vises.  In addition to that I have found so many discrepancies in the drill gauges that I only use Starrett for these also.  The Generals used to be pretty good but it seems like China has taken over a lot of this stuff and the quality has deteriorated.
 
Bill

Wow!!!  Beautiful work, just wondered if you have trouble with the Veritas sharpening jig slipping on the Mortise Chisels.  Even with the attachment for them I have to support the bottom of the chisel to stop it from slipping.  Even contacted Lee Valley about this and they agreed with me.  Suggested double face tape as I remember.  
 
Bill

I would have to second Jim's comment on the starrett pin vises.  In addition to that I have found so many discrepancies in the drill gauges that I only use Starrett for these also.  The Generals used to be pretty good but it seems like China has taken over a lot of this stuff and the quality has deteriorated.
 
Bill