druxey

I'm another devotee of dilute PVA. When I wanted to re-do a couple of ratlines recently, I simply worked a bit of isopropyl alcohol into the knots with a stiff brush and they came off easily.

Stick with diluted pva glue.  If you use ca for your knots the line may become brittle and snap.
David B

rekon54

Good to see you back again, Sailcat. Thanks for re-posting your meticulous re-working of this model.

Photo of the Fleuron 1729 1:24
 
 

Photo of the Fleuron 1729 1:24

Photo of the Fleuron 1729 1:24

Photo of the Fleuron 1729 1:24

Photo of the Fleuron 1729 1:24

Gary,
 
I had forgotten the amazing level of detail and craftsmanship in your hold. Nice to see it again!
 
Mark

Just one more set guys and that should  bring the magazine up to speed.

Figure I would add a few more to the magazine build up. Hope know one mind

Dec. 10, 2011.  I have added the extension piece on top of the head of the knee.  This also tapers anteriorly.  Now that the counter timber and filling pieces are in place and partially faired, I have added the sills for the counter and bridal ports.  This was a real pain to do with all of the frames in the way.  I am glad that I waited until now because at this point I know the height and angle of the sills are correct.  The lower sills are cut with a bird’s mouth and the upper sills are cut with a wedge shape.  In the pictures it appears that the lower counter sill is tilted starboard but this is just shadowing.  I think that for the full frames I will add the cuts for the sills as I install the frames.
 
Extension Piece

 
Bridal and Counter Ports
 
 
I am finding it rather difficult to make the beveled chocks for the frames  I know a lot of builders use a mill but right now that is on my someday list.  Until then, only 53 more frames to go!

 
Author:  druxey.  With a little practice and a very sharp chisel, plus really meticulous mark-out, making and fitting chocks will happen more rapidly once you get used to the technique.  It is extremely difficult to get a flat faying surface using files.  The surface will tend to round over as you file it.

 
Author:  Dan Vad.  Instead of using a file to finesse my chocks, I use a flat sanding board.  I run the angled faces of the chocks one side at a time on the paper by dragging them toward me.  It takes very little time to get the “feel” for the angles and how much pressure to exert on the leading or trailing edge.   Leave plenty of width when rough-cutting the chocks in case you sand a little too much off one of the angles and need to sand a bit more off the other face to compensate – the inboard face will be faired with frames in any case.

 
Jan. 8, 2012.  The frames are going a little quicker than anticipated.  Eighteen down and a whole bunch to go!  I decided to put chocks in all the frames.  It actually is easier than plain scarf joints because of the reasons Greg stated a last month.

 
Feb. 17, 2012.  I have finally finished all of the full frames (except for the cast toptimbers).  By finished, I mean that they are all assembled and sanded to the outside line on the frame template.  I have left the templates attached to the frames until each one is ready to mount to facilitate identifying them.  As I prepare to mount them I will add the cross piece, do the final sanding of the fore and aft faces and put in the trunnels.  The cross piece will be marked in the midline to help alignment.  The first frame mounted is 14A (aft).  The heels must be trimmed to match the shape of the bearding line and a wedge-shaped piece is removed from the floor to match the top of the deadwood after fairing.
 
Completed Frames

 
Full Frame

 
Heel

 
I made a jig to help ensure that the frames are square and plumb.  I marked the midline and slotted the jig to fit over the keel.  I chose to make mine from heavy cardstock with wood supports.  I added a wood cross-brace and glued another piece of card on to the back to prevent warping. 
 
Framing Jig
 
 
I have drawn lines on the building board to represent the fore face of frames 14A and 14F.  As I add more frames I will continue to add these lines.  Everything is measured from dead flat.  The jig is then brought up to that like and squared true to the building board with machinist squares and contractor squares (at least that’s what they call them at Home Depot).  The frame is then seated and glued in place.  After the glue has set I will add spacer blocks at the top timbers.  When using the jig, remember the timber thickness decreases with each successive futtock and one face of the frame is flat but the other has a stair-step.  Frame 14A’s flat face is aft and the stair-step is fore.  Therefore the framing jig only touches the floor futtocks.  On frame 14F the flat face is fore and to the jig will be in contact with the entire frame.

Building Board Lines

 
Jig in Use
 
 

Allanyed's response is a good one. A very sharp pencil (hard lead is best) and accurate mark-out are the critical parts of the operation, as well as a sharp chisel. 
 
By the way 'scarph' is the correct spelling; 'scarf' is the thing you put around your neck to stay warm!

Paul,
 
It's good to see your Scharnkorst groing on MSW mark 2!
 
As for the discussion re political symbols, it is MSW's policy not to allow any political, religious, racial or sexual symbols or content except where such symbols are an intergral part of the historical depiction of the model, such as, for example, Nazi symbols as they were displayed on German WWII ships at the time.
 
As has already been pointed out, this is a model building forum and politics, race, religion or sexual content has no place here.  All members are welcome as model builders no matter what views they may personally hold.
 
John

I'm thoroughly enjoying the reposting of these excellent logs. Those ribbands on your fully framed hull demonstrate how truly fair you've made her. Quite an elegant hull.

Nov. 15, 2011.  I had time yesterday to start the fore external and aft internal fairing.  It is daunting to remove all that wood from the hawser timbers and fore cants.

 
Beginning the Fore and Aft Fairing
 
 
Author:  dvm27.   When fairing the hull I use a pencil to draw lines across the hull from top to bottom.  As you begin to fair the marks start to disappear.  This means the high spots are being sanded down towards the lower spots (which still have the pencil marks).  The pencil marks are reapplied every so often.  Once all the pencil marks have disappeared the hull is fair.  Sweep your hand gently across the hull from time to time and you will appreciate the fairing progress.  David Antscherl taught me this method and it has worked quite nicely.  Greg.
 
Nov. 21, 2011.  I have started working on the counter timbers and the knee of the head simultaneously.  There is a lot of fitting and temporary tacking of pieces, so while the aft was drying I worked on the fore, etc. 

I have the angle for the counter timbers set and the timbers are temporarily pinned in place.  I have also started the external curvature of these timbers.  The next step will be to carve out the excess internal wood and permanently install them.  I will not finish the exterior profile until I start the exterior fairing.  The mark on the aft side is the top of timber line.  Atalanta’s top of timber line is 4” shorter but I went with the prototype instead.  The timber’s angle is the key; the height can be shortened later.
 
Counter Timbers
 
 
The shape of the bow timbers had to be redrawn from David’s plans.  The stem of Atalanta has a slightly different shape from the plan, as does the anterior edge of the knee of the head.  The cheeks are positioned 6” lower and the curve of the upper part of the lacing and extension is also a little different.  All of the joints below water have black paper (felt) and the upper joints have pencil on the edges to make the joint more apparent.  I need to sand the knee to its final shape and drill several holes before mounting.
 

 

 
There are always items that seem easy but in reality are not.  The filler timbers between the aft cants and the counter timbers are one example.  I spent a lot of time measuring and remeasuring the location of the side lights.  Even though the height of the top timbers is different on Atalanta than on the prototype, the height of the side light is unchanged.  There are six timbers on each side.  Two of the timbers form the vertical sides of the side lights.  There is a short timber under the sill.  The four aft timbers need to fill in the remaining space relatively evenly while, at the same time, gradually angling aft to approximate the angle of the counter timber.  The fore timber has an unusual configuration.  It is notched onto the first cant frame and has an aft taper superiorly and a fore taper inferiorly.  I left these timbers very oversize because I did not know how it would all come together.

 
I have started cutting the first few full frame pieces.  The frames will have chocks between the futtocks except as shown in the plans.
 
Counter Timbers
   
 
 
 

Hull planking - second layer from stripes (I used again 1mm thick card):


 


 
Second layer after grinding:



 

Hey Greg, I know that David was your Mentor, would you like an apprentice??
I would take the position with no pay tomorrow. Lol.
 
Ben

1:60 HMS Naiad 1797
Part 62 – Lower Deck Beams Continued
Posted 3/29/11
 
Having glued all the knees to their respective beams, the next step was to install the bolting. The knees are bolted to the beams with iron bolts in the fore and aft direction. These are simulated with 30 lb. test black monofilament fishing leader. The bolts go through both knees and the beam – three at each end. The picture below shows the setup for drilling these to help get the drill exit points in the right place.
 

 
In this picture the two beams at midship have been assembled so their knees can all be bolted. These beams have a pair of opposed lodging knees between them so they needed to be assembled for this.
 
In the next picture bolts have been installed in most of the beams and they are waiting to have those trimmed back flush and sanded smooth.
 

 
After the holes were drilled, a length of monofilament was cut from the spool and the end dipped in medium viscosity CA. It was then inserted in one end of the hole, removed, re-dipped in the glue and pushed all the way through the hole from the other end, then clipped off. This assured that the bolt would be tightly held at both ends of the hole, adding strength to the joint, which is inherently weak in the case of the lodging knees because they are glued on end grain. After drying of the CA the bolts were sliced off with a knife and sanded flush to the wood.
 
The next picture shows some of the bolting on the knees after the beams were put back in their positions.
 

 
This picture also shows the first of the pillars to be fitted under the beams at the centerline. These are mortised into the beams of both decks. They need to be carefully measured to make sure they do not disturb the fair line of the beams fore and aft and cause waviness in the decking.
 
Below is a closer view of these pillars, which have their corners chamfered off in the middle of their length.
 

 
The next picture shows a few more of these further aft.
 

 
Between the platforms the pillars extend all the way down to the keelson.
 
The next picture shows some of the beams over the central platform permanently installed.
 

 
With all the gluing finished on this section of the orlop deck , some of it has now been given a coat of wax finish. That is the reason for the slightly darker cast to part of it.
 
These first beams were a test for my plan to drill through the knees from outside the hull to install full through-bolts. This seems to work all right for the lodging knees by using the drill guide I described earlier, but I found that controlling the drill exit point on the hanging knees was just too unpredictable to give good appearance. Also, it is virtually impossible to finish the hanging knee bolts flush with the beams in place. While this second problem could be overcome, I have decided to compromise on this bolting. The knees will still be bolted from the outside, but I will not drill all the way through them. Bolts on the inside of the knees will all be pre-installed and finished off. This will give the appearance I want, but will not be 100% authentic. C’est la vie.
 
The next picture shows a pile of beams with copper bolts installed on the knees waiting to be filed off flush. I’m actually waiting for delivery of some 220 grit sleeves for my new spindle sander – a birthday gift – before going at this.
 
 

 
The nails at the ends of the beam scarfs can also be seen in this picture. These were added to all the made beams. I knew I had read about these somewhere but couldn’t remember the reference, so until I found it buried in Steel, I deferred installing them. These smaller iron bolts (or nails) were made using smaller monofilament.
 
Just in case someone is wondering why the mix of copper and iron, in the absence of any definitive data, I am using copper for all bolts through the hull from roughly the waterline down and iron for everything that is not normally immersed in saltwater. The rationale is that iron is stronger and was cheaper. Copper was resistant to salt water but somewhat weaker and much more expensive. Seems a reasonable approach.
 
So, the next step will be to trim off the excess copper bolting, finish sand the beams, and then proceed to get them installed. The partitions for the boatswain still need to be done as can be seen in the last picture.
 
 
Ed

T e i l  15

T e i l  13

Thank you gentlemen! Erik, for the tarred joints I use acid free black paper (craft and artists supply stores have this) and white glue. Depending on the joint I'll use thicker or thinner paper and the edges are shaved clean with a blade. I would strongly suggest preparing a test wood/paper/wood sandwich first and applying the finish you prefer as a test to make sure the paper doesn't bleed onto the wood surface. Finally, I perforate the surface of the paper between joints with a pin to make sure glue adequately penetrates through to the other side. I also make sure to use treenails or fasteners in these joints. As yet haven't had a joint failure.
 
I've also used carpenters glue tinted with aniline dye powders. This works well too but is a holy mess.
 

Here is a couple more showing this part of her build.



 

1:60 HMS Naiad 1797
Part 61 – Lower Deck Knees 2
Posted 3/27/11
 
In the last part some work had been done on the partitions on the aft platform. This work is now complete. Hardware has been added to the doors to the light room and the aft magazine and that whole assembly was fixed permanently in place. To the right of the light room door is the Dutch style door to the stewards room. The steward reported to the purser and was responsible for distribution of stores, hence the Dutch door. There is also a small sliding door leading to the bread room from this room. The steward slept in this room. To the right is the slops room then the marines clothing room. Slops was the term given to seamen’s clothing and gear that were issued to new arrivals on the ship who may not have had a chance to outfit themselves before being picked up by the press gang. Deductions from wages were made accordingly. Also in this picture the hatch to the spirit room has been converted to a “double-flap.” A ladder way to this deck will descend above this hatch.
 

 
The next picture shows this area with the overhead beams temporarily in place.
 

 
Most of the effort in the past two days involved the hanging knees and the progress of their installation is shown in the next several pictures. The next picture shows the knees installed on beams over the central orlop.
 
 

 
The hanging knees at this stage are glued to their respective beams only. All the knees still need to be trimmed down flush with the beams.
 
 

 
This view from astern shows the hanging knees on the last several beams. The slots let down in the tops of two of these beams are for the mizzen step. Hanging knees on the beam forward of that are clamped for gluing.
 
In the next picture the very last hanging knee has been glued and clamped.
 
 

 
The picture below shows the arrangement of knees on the beam arm assembly attached the beam aft of the main hatch. The knees on this assembly have been sanded down flush with the beam.
 

 
The double lodging knee in the upper left of this picture is the point at which the lodging knees shift position and orientation. It was important to have a large angle between the two faces of these knees for strength. Here at midship they are roughly 90 degrees, but with the change in orientation the angle of these will increase going fore and aft, which is the reason for the shift. Without this shift the angles at one end would be very acute and strong knees could not be made from wood for this situation. Of course, with the change, the hanging knees also change position on the beams. They are on the forward side forward of this point and on the aft side aft.
 
The next picture shows the deck structure with all the knees installed.
 

 
All this structure is still removable. The next step will be to remove each beam, trim down the knees flush with the top, get everything sanded and install the fore and aft bolts through both knees and the beam. The pillars under each beam can then be fitted and the beams installed permanently.
 
There is still some partition work to be done on the orlop. The picture below shows the area of the fore platform, laid out for the boatswain’s store and the sailroom forward of that. There will be no partitions installed on the starboard side – only structure.
 

 
 
Ed