georgeband

Thank you for your comments, Phil, which provide welcome reassurance that I am not speeding off in the wrong direction. I have now expanded the mast drawings to show the rigging, an activity which again combines research with second-guessing what might have been done 200 years ago. The drawings for the fore mast, below, are supplemented by tables to name the numbered ropes and to show in which order they are placed over the hounds. The fore topmast is crowded with ropes and blocks (15 altogether that rest on the hounds) but they have to go somewhere. The main mast has simpler rigging but still needs decisions about where to place each rope or block. All these drawings and notes will be my guides when I return to model making next year and I fully expect to change my mind about some of the placements. George

For the last two weeks my modelling effort has been at a computer screen with a pile of reference books next to me. The purpose? To draw the masts so that I can start building them. As Phil has mentioned on his posts, there are a good number of near-contemporary references which give different answers about sizes and shapes; the number of options appears to be more than the number of authors. I have relied mostly on Lever and Steel for contemporary records and on Marquardt (Global Schooner), Petrejus (Brig Irene), and Peterssen (Rigging) for recent opinions, and then made my own decisions. The drawings for the fore masts (lower mast and topmast) are below and the main masts are similar. The numbers on the left are distances from the top or from the deck. A number with a description such as '5.9mm round' give the cross section of the mast. Comments in italic show various features. Partner cover. This tarred, canvas cover is to stop water entering the hull around the mast. Making one from wood will be tricky. Has anyone invented a clever way of doing this? Pin rail. This has eight belaying pins and I have placed it perpendicular to the mast and not parallel to the water line. One cleat below it is for the spread yard truss. Any objections or suggestions for alternatives? Copper sheathing. I expect to use half of a hull copper piece on the mast: 6mm high and 9mm long is about right and the shipwrights would have access to them. Cross trees. My belaying plan has two topmast shrouds on each side, so two cross trees should extend from the trestles. I chose the aft and middle positions because they line up better with the lower shrouds. Does anyone have information to support this, or an alternative? Hounds. Phil made a good case for defining the hounds as the line where the trestle trees rest on an extension of the mast. This is self-consistent and admirable but unfortunately several authors use hounds to describe the widening of the mast. This is apparent on the topmast which has hounds to support ropes without any trees. I think the dual meaning will remain and the only solution is to define it for your application. Eyes and bolts. I have not shown these on this iteration of the drawings and will have to check the belaying plan carefully before I do. Drawing for the fore topmast comes next. The stick is 4mm square at the heel and 1.5mm round at the top, and to paraphrase Steel it would be very wasteful of wood. He states that the normal practice was to add planking around the heel so that it fills the fore hole in the trees better. I plan to use a 3mm dowel and at the heel I will reduce the size to 2mm square then add planks on all four sides. The hounds on the topmast are octagonal and I will repeat a technique I used on Sherbourne many years ago. This is to make the mast without hounds, then wrap layers of glued paper around the mast to build up the diameter, and finally cut back the laminated paper to get the octagonal section. Christmas is coming and the physical mast making will have to wait until next year. Best wishes to all. George

Thank you, Wefalck. I was taught as a physicist that a perfect sphere is a good first approximation to most things, and in this case a cylinder is even better. I use a 'gammoning' method to measure diameters and wrap 10 turns of thread around a dowel, push them together and then measure the width of the ten. I expect others have their own variants on this method which has more control than crushing a single thread between caliper jaws. The Sew All thread (No. 100) I have measured is 0.2mm diameter by this method and the Extra Strong thread (No. 40) is 0.3mm or 0.35mm depending on the sample. These diameters do not scale linearly with those from your formula so it is not a matter of adjusting the effective density. The larger Gutermann numbers are for finer threads and I suspect that the Gutermann numbers given on the minionsofcraft website might be the length of thread needed to get to a defined weight. Linen threads have their own actual density and packing (I don't see gaps between strands) and so will have a variant of the formula. My thoughts now are to continue with a pragmatic approach and measure and use the threads that I have. I might return to Excel later, after I have finished the belaying plans... George

The internet tells me that Gutermann Sew All thread, readily available in shops, is one variant of Gutermann Mara. Mara is from the Industrial division and Sew All is retail. There is a long reply from the Gutermann sales manager in the USA, in 2015, on this link. https://sewing.patternreview.com/SewingDiscussions/topic/92551 To save you the effort of reading it all here are two key excerpts. Most fabric stores carry Gutermann Sew All which is a Mara thread and the most common size is Tex 30. Mara from the Industrial division is the same thread construction, MicroCore Polyester, but the Industrial segment has Tex 19, 25, 30, 40, 60, 100, 200 265 and 400. This link is for an on-line store where they describe the many variants of Gutermann thread. https://www.minionsofcraft.co.uk/blog/essential-guide-to-gutermann-threads. The thicknesses are shown as a number but I don't have a conversion scale that converts the number into a diameter. The extra fine polyester thread is No. 150 and the extra strong thread is No. 40. George

I have reached a minor milestone and the bowsprit assembly is now attached to the hull. The box in which I keep Whiting has also had an extension to accommodate the new spar. Part of the delay has been from deciding how to simulate a served (or serviced or dressed) rope and there is a separate thread about that. The answer for me is to paint a linen thread, or paint one of the fine ropes from Ropes of Scale for something like a shroud which is only served over part of its length. Painting Gutermann polyester sewing threads gives a rough and bumpy finish because the threads are too hairy. Little alterations to the belaying plan also took up many hours which I have not logged. Making and fitting the bowsprit assembly took 49 hours spread over one year. The gammoning loops through a metal bracket which was inspired by one I saw in Admiralty drawing ZAZ6112. This drawing could be an early proposal for the Fish class schooners. The bracket is also a convenient place to belay the martingale and the horses. ZAZ6112 extract I replaced the bowsprit shrouds that I had prepared previously and attached the new, painted, linen ropes to their deadeyes with seizings which look much neater. The outhauler tackle in the photo below is a bit slack and has been tightened now. The next step for me is to prepare drawings for the fore mast (lower and top). I have the basic dimensions - lengths and maximum diameters - but I know I will spend hours working out all the details and modifying the belaying plan. George

The Gutermann threads that I have been using are from a local sewing shop and their sizes (my measurements) and labels are 0.4mm Top stitch (polyester, three strands, quite loose winding) 0.3 - 0.35mm Extra strong (polyester, two strands) 0.2mm Sew-all (polyester, two strands) 0.4mm linen I don't know how these names relate to Gutermann Mara and they might have different specifications or it might be down to marketing in different regions. We have had a burst of sunshine here and I took some backlit photos of the threads above. This method is the best that I have found for revealing hairy threads and the results were not what I had hoped for, but do explain why painting some threads gave a rough finish. The linen thread is on the right. It could be that Dafi's white glue and spit is a magic formula that holds down the fibres. Waxing would also hold down the fibres but it would, I expect, prevent a water based paint from sticking. The smallest seized size I need is 0.4mm so I shall continue with the linen threads. George

Wefalck, Thank you for your kind comments and suggestions. I have tried painting the threads again in a more controlled way and found some interesting results. Gutermann polyester threads. These repeatedly show roughness after painting with acrylic and I can only think that this is from loose fibre ends which catch the paint and then stick out. I even tried dirty water as a first coat and that did not fix it. The Ropes of Scale ropes that I have tried use the same Gutermann thread but take the paint well so there is something curious here. Linen threads. These work well with paint though there is a directional effect: brushing in one direction smooths down any loose fibres and sticks them with the paint, brushing in the other direction lifts loose fibres and creates a bump. The diameters of any linen threads that I have tried are not increased significantly by painting and the largest increase in diameter that I have measured is 0.02mm. Both of the Gutermann linen threads I have now measure at 0.40mm diameter before painting and 0.42mm after painting. Gutermann cotton thread takes the paint better than the equivalent polyester thread. I was not expecting this, but both are too rough to use. One useful side effect is that the painted thread holds it shape quite well if it is bent or stretched taut. Wrapping 0.4mm painted linen thread around a 2.5mm deadeye and then seizing the ends together with fly-tying thread was quicker than I expected. George

Inspired by Dafi's success, I have simulated serving ropes with paint. First I tried Humbrol 'service brown' acrylic which is a reasonable colour for what I want but it is definitely gloss. In fact it is too glossy to use as a top coat though it is good at filling the contlines. (The contemporary spelling of contlines is not acceptable now, but have a look in Steel or the naval dictionaries if you want to see it.) I found some matt burnt umber acrylic ('Pebeo origin') in a local Hobbycraft shop and tried that. The colour is good and it is matt and is now my preferred approach for serving these fine lines. The method works well on linen threads but Gutermann polyester threads become very rough and are not useable. The threads in the photo below are, from top to bottom, Ropes of Scale 0.6mm, dark brown. The left end is bare, then there is a stretch with a single coat up to the middle, then two coats. It needs another coat to smooth out the lay. 'Hemline' linen thread, 0.7mm, dark grey. I bought this from a local sewing shop. Black '2 ounce' linen thread, 0.6mm. This was donated by my wife and is probably a family heirloom. Gutermann linen thread, 0.4mm, 7202 black. This carries the paint well. Gutermann linen thread, 0.35mm, 4010 brown. I expected it to be the same diameter as the black thread but there must be some batch differences. Gutermann 'top stitch' thread, 0.4mm, 696 brown. The thread went rough and lumpy with the paint. Not useable when painted. Gutermann 'extra strong' thread, 0.35mm, 696 brown. This also went rough and is not useable. For ropes that have both served and un-served sections I will use the Ropes of Scales threads and paint on the serving where needed, for example on the shrouds where they go over the mast heads. I am tempted to apply a coat or two of the gloss Humbrol paint first then finish with the matt. Ropes which were served on their whole lengths will be linen threads with the paint. I have not measured the diameters of the painted ropes yet. That's a job for another day. George

Thank you to all for your suggestions. I followed the link from Wefalck to Dafi's HMS Victory and was overwhelmed by the quality of his work. Layers of PVA followed by paint seems to be one answer which suits my desire to avoid building and learning to use a serving machine. My speed of building is very slow already and I do not want to add more delays. George

Paul, I admire your skill in working with such fine threads which clearly proves that it can be done. The question that I return to is more philosophical: how much should we follow old, full-size practice for a model? Is there a simpler way to create the same effect? My models are plank on bulkhead so I have clearly abandoned the idea of building all the frames which are not visible on my finished models. Respect to those who build frames, even if they are not in oak! We all draw our own line in the sand to show what we want to do 'properly' and I am exploring how I want to make a rope look as if it has been served. I will experiment with paints at some point to see if I can get a smooth finish. George

On my 1/64 model of a small schooner, HMS Whiting, the shrouds and other standing rigging are mostly 0.6mm diameter. A few are thinner, down to 0.4mm diameter. References such as Steel say that some of these ropes should be served (after worming and parcelling) on part or all of their length. The question for me is how to achieve this? A traditional serving machine, bought or DIY, seems oversized to me and though, with care, it could probably succeed in wrapping a fine line around the rope I doubt if I could see any of the strands. The normal viewing distance suggests that the served rope would just look smooth. Has anyone tried alternative methods to get the same effect? Painting the rope comes to mind, or coating it with PVA or some other sticky stuff that dries smooth. I could also use a smooth thread, for example a linen which does not show the lay of the strands, in places where the whole rope is served. All suggestions are welcome! George

I faced the same problem with my 1805 schooner HMS Whiting. The Admiralty drawings do not show a windlass or any of the below-deck supports that one would need. The choice became either 'the drawings are incomplete' or 'there is no windlass' and I am very wary of claiming that a contemporary document is wrong. The answer came when I saw the original drawing for ZAZ6118 which has a letter attached. The letter which had not been digitized states quite clearly 'the Anchors were weighed by a Tackle'. No windlass. George

The log books kept by 'captains' or other officers are a good source of information, though in the UK you have to get to the National Records Office in Kew, photograph them, and then spend many hours trying to understand them. I found two references to boats in Roach's log for the small schooner Whiting: one said 'hoisted in the boat' and the other said 'at 3 hoisted out the boat'. Armed with this information I worked out that the boat would be 12 feet long (any more and it would not fit between masts and hatches) and the only realistic place to put it was on the centre line. Admiralty drawings did not show any davits. Another source of information about cutters is the book 'Midshipman Easy' by Marryat. Find it on the web for free. George

Back after a long break from model making. Grandchildren take priority because you only get one chance to see them growing and if you miss it then it has gone. A model ship can wait. I have spent the last few weeks refreshing my memory about what I had built and what was coming next. I discovered that I had overhauled my supply of blocks and have plenty of 3D printed ones from Seahorse and a lot of redundant wooden blocks. I have expanded my stock of rope with Gutermann threads from a local shop; diameters from 0.2mm to 0.4mm in shades of brown and tan are readily available and cheap. The lay of the strands is a bit looser than the tight rope from Ropes of Scale but at normal viewing distances they are not visible. I have ordered thicker ropes (0.45 tan and 0.6 dark brown) from Ropes of Scale. The bowsprit and jibboom were assembled when I downed tools in May. I have now tied on most of the rigging and am preparing to mount this spar to the hull. The photo below shows the ropes that are connected to the jibboom. From the top they are the inhauler, outhauler, horses and stirrups, and martingale. The rope that ties the heel of the jibboom to the bowsprit is also visible. All of these ropes are Gutermann threads. The next photo shows ropes connected to the bowsprit cap. Two bowsprit shrouds are attached with 2.5mm deadeyes. There is one deadeye ready for the bobstay but I am waiting for a delivery from Ropes of Scale before I can finish this. I used deadeyes here rather than hearts because I think they look neater and it is quite possible that they were used on Whiting. George

I am sure that similar problems occurred in reality while a new lieutenant was desperately leafing through his copy of Lever's 'Young officers sheet anchor' to find the right page. George