georgeband

Lieste, Great minds think alike! I had the same idea as you but have not seen evidence for it, and also thought of a problem: if the port lid is open and hanging down loose then it will be vulnerable to waves hitting it. Because of the leverage the force of a wave would be magnified at the hinge, which could be damaged. I have now decided on the top hinged, outward opening design. Internet searches have not shown any more detail about the Science Museum (London) model so there will be some guesswork here. Thank you all for your suggestions. George

Alan, Thank you for taking the time to search for a remembered drawing. There must be some interesting history behind those sketches. I have mentally explored a lot of ideas for a stern port lid. Top hinged and opening outwards has similarities to conventional gun ports and this gives it some credibility. In this situation I would have a rope on the outer face that comes over the transom and ties to a cleat 'somewhere' to hold the lid in the open position. When the lid is closed this rope would be tied to the same cleat so that the end is not lost; a sailing friend has described a cleat which has a hole in it to trap the end of such a rope. Something is needed to hold the lid shut since gravity would pull it down. A sliding bolt, or a wood bar through a hoop would do the job, or another rope tied to a cleat. I like the concept of a rope and the lid hanging slightly open because this would let water out, but a following wave would push it shut against a rebate. Thanks for planting that idea above, SpyGlass. (This all reminds me of leading 'brainstorming' sessions at work, in the days when I still worked.) George

Jud, SpyGlass, Thanks for your comments about aft chase guns. According to the Admiralty drawings Whiting had ports in her stern but I cannot see how they could fit guns into the tight space around them, let alone serve them. She only carried four guns (two 6lb cannon and two 12lb carronades) and moving one of them into the stern would itself have been a difficult operation with a step up and a step down in the deck on the way. I doubt if the Fish (Ballahou) class were expected to carry stern chase guns but I have no evidence for this. It seems likely but I still have to decide what to do about the port lids. As for running away upwind, that is a good plan if your little schooner is being chased by a square rigger. Whiting was not so lucky and was captured twice in 1812, by schooners, though the first capture (by an American privateer Dash) was more by subterfuge than skill at sailing. George

I am reviving this thread because the time is fast approaching for me to decide on the stern ports for Whiting. My thoughts are that Whiting would have ports that can be closed because of the risks from a following sea: waves could easily enter through stern ports and the water would then be trapped in a short section of deck that runs from the transom to a step up where the deck is over the captain's cabin. I also think it looks better for my model. So much for my justifications. Peter Goodwin's Alert book has photos of a cutter model 'around 1785' that was displayed in the Science Museum, London. The photos show port lids that are hinged at the top and open outwards, much like the ports on the sides of the cutter. This is the style I plan to use on Whiting. Unfortunately, the resolution of the photos is poor and I cannot discern any details. Even more unfortunately the Science Museum closed its ship models display some ten years ago and there is no reasonable chance of seeing this cutter. My plea for help! Does anyone have photos of this model which show the stern ports? Or a similar model where there are hinged port lids? Otherwise I have to resort to engineering judgment and guesswork and that is a route which is harder to defend. George

Mike, Just right for the period you mention is 'Two years before the mast' by Robert Dana, first published in 1840. This pops up quickly in a web search and you can get pdf or paper versions. The pdf that I have does not react to a word search so you would have to read the whole thing to find a boat hook (if there is one), but a more recent scan might behave better. The book is worth reading anyway to get a flavour of serving on an American merchant ship and sailing round the Horn to what became San Francisco. George

Here is a view inside the housing over the main ladder way to see the bucket and rags. Skylight The skylight (called companion on the Haddock drawing) starts with a coaming that has a sloping top. I made it from 0.5mm planks because the thickness is visible. The light at the top is from a piece of acetate on which I had scored lines to show where the framing bars would go. These are from plastic strip, 20thou (0.5mm) square section that I glued on with CA. Components for the skylight Scuttle to bread room I guessed that this would be a box hatch which has a solid lid over the opening; a grating would let in water and that is not good for the ship's biscuits. I made it from offcuts of walnut in two main parts. One is a lower coaming frame, the other is the lid that sits on it. I made the lid very slightly smaller to accentuate the join between the two. Components for the scuttle to bread room Final picture today shows the skylight and scuttle in position. George

Housing over main ladder way I want to anticipate questions or comments about the name of this structure which is now often called a companionway cover. Falconer's dictionary describes a companion as 'a sort of wooden porch placed over the entrance or stair-case of the master's cabin in a merchant-ship'. The Admiralty drawing for Haddock describes the skylight in the deck above the commander's cabin as the companion. So there is little agreement about the name for this glorified shed that kept the water out of the main ladder way. As mentioned in the previous post I designed my own shed and used experience from designing and building a band stand at home, together with pictures and current practice. What comes out from this little project should look reasonable and be justifiable but it does not link to a contemporary record and is mostly from my imagination. The design I chose has hinged doors at one end (starboard), a sliding roof section and a fixed roof. The roof panels pretend to be covered in canvas and tarred. The sides and doors are from vertical planks on a timber frame, and I have made guesses about bolts and hinges and handles, and rebates and overlaps to keep out the water. The photo below shows the main components. The vertical planks are about 2x0,5mm and are split down from deck planks in the kit. I edge-glued them together and then added the frames. The doors were made in the same way but with more elaborate framing. The roof panels were from 1.5mm ply which came from the frets in the kit. Main components for the shed - two sides, back end and coaming After assembly I painted the inside white. Most of the outside is stained a walnut colour except for the rails that support the sliding roof. I assumed that these would be worn fresh and gave them a pink stain. The sill in the doorway is also pink from wear. The roof panels were painted grey and I deliberately made it blotchy to simulate worn, tarred canvas. The hinges for the doors are black paper and the bolts are odd bits of etched brass. The shed with doors and roof glued open The ladder was trimmed to shape and glued into the hatch. Because of sloping floors and sides and different 'verticals' it sits at a small angle. The shed then goes over it and I allowed enough deck inside the door for a sailor's foot before he starts to descend on the ladder. At the back of the shed there is a small covered area of deck and I put a bucket in there and will probably add a bundle of cloth, ready to mop up the water when it gets in. Shed installed on deck It's only a little shed but I don't think it would have taken me much longer to build a full size one. George

Pumps and main fife rail in place The fife rail was not difficult, just a bit flimsy while it sat loose on my work table. With hindsight it might have been easier to finish the posts and their supports, glue them to the deck, and then attach the pin rail. This is what it looks like as an assembly. Main (aft) fife rail I glued the fife rail to the deck with PVA. The deck planks are perfect guides for alignment to port and starboard; for fore and aft I stuck a small piece of masking tape to the deck to show a line 8mm forward of the step. I also glued the pumps in place and for them I drilled holes in the deck and the base of each pump. A short piece of wire ensures that the pumps are in the right place and I only have to adjust the rotation angle of the pumps by eye. Pumps, fife rail, temporary mast, and tape over the main ladder way The photo above shows how crowded the deck is around the main mast, and there is more to come. (The kit places the pumps near the fore mast which is quite wrong.) Housing over main ladder way My current task is the housing over the main ladder way. The Admiralty drawings only show it in the side views and they have the sides parallel to the frames which makes the whole structure lean back relative to the deck. I followed this angle for the pumps and fife rail posts because it made engineering sense. However, I think I will make the housing perpendicular to the deck and consciously and deliberately differ from the Admiralty drawing. As mentioned in an earlier post this is not a decision to take lightly. https://modelshipworld.com/topic/28307-frames-built-vertical-or-perpendicular-to-keel/?do=findComment&comment=819683 The drawings tell us nothing about the other dimensions of the housing, and whether the top lid was hinged or sliding. This will be the time for some inspired guesswork and advice from knowledgeable people at MSW. George

Eric, Thank you for your kind words about my book. I am relieved that it reached you eventually and I can only guess at the causes of the delays - Covid and Father Christmas? Best wishes, George

Pumps revisited I realised after finishing the pumps that they should stand at an angle to the deck. The long body of the pumps is parallel to the frames and perpendicular to the keel, while the deck is at quite a different angle. The bottom of the (model) body has to be angled and I expected things to break if I tried cutting and sanding, so I took the opportunity to make new, octagonal bodies. The new bodies are from 4x4mm obechi which I placed in a mast-trimming jig and sanded all the corners to get an octagonal section. The new sides should be 1.66mm wide and I found it easy enough to compare the sanded surfaces with the original square sides by eye and keep sanding until they looked equal under a magnifier. This was followed by drilling a 1.5mm hole at the top end and cutting the piece to length using another fine jig. Octagonal pump body on a block of wood where I have marked the angle of the deck as a cutting guide The pump components are much the same as previously and I re-used everything apart from the paper bands around the body. The finished pumps do not look any different from the previous version at first glance but the angle and the round section would have gnawed at my conscience if I had not changed them. I did not mention earlier that the outlet pipes are in line with the handles although drawings appear to show them offset at 45 degrees. The reason is that the handles have to be athwartships (if that means they point directly to the bulwarks) because there is not enough room to have them angled forward or aft by 45 degrees. Similarly, the outlets point to the scuppers and not to the mast or the main ladderway. The sailors could expect wet feet when pumping. (Almost) finished pumps: the outlet pipes need to be cleaned out I am now working on the aft fife rail. This is a curious beast with uprights that are perpendicular to the keel and not the deck (sounds familiar?) and a pair of stanchions to support them. The rail itself arcs out from the posts; I suspect that one reason for this is that the deck is quite crowded and a straight rail would interfere with the mast. George

More deck furniture Main hatch and grating The main hatch has a grating over it and I used the 'combs' supplied in the kit. It is better to have extra length of comb beyond the size you want if, like me, you tend to round the edges when sanding. I left two open squares at one end for anchor cables to go down to the hold. (The kit shows navel pipes for the anchor cables but they are unlikely in this period.) After the glue had set I sanded down the thickness from both sides, the reason being that I want the interior lighting to be visible through the grating. Grating sanded down to 1mm thick. The combs are over-long at this stage When the thickness was correct I trimmed off the sticking-out bits of the combs, opened up the holes for the anchor ropes, and filled in a few slots in the combs that were left open because of the anchor holes. I gave the assembly a light brushing of wood stain (water based dye) to hide the bright white wood. Grating complete The coaming was built to fit the grating; I wanted the edges of the grating to be complete lengths and not a 'comb' which can happen if you start with the coaming. I used 1x4mm walnut and made simple overlap joints. A little sanding ensures that it sits flat on the deck with no gaps. I glued a ledge inside the coaming (1x0.5mm wood strip) to support the grating so it sits just proud of the coaming. I glued the coaming to the deck but left the grating loose for now in case I need to have access to the insides later. Grating and coaming on deck. I have spent what seems like hours cleaning out the holes in the grating but there is always some detritus in them. At some point I will have to say 'enough'. Pumps The drawings that I have found of pumps all follow the same basic concept but differ somewhat in the detail. The pumps in the kit and those available as after market components looked clumsy to me so I chose to scratch build a pair to my own design which looks plausible though I cannot point to a reference to justify it. They are fiddly because there are small parts to make and assemble but nothing too difficult. The body of the pumps is from 4mm dowel and 12mm long. The Haddock drawings suggest an octagonal section but I chose to keep mine round. I drilled a 1.5mm diameter hole at the top end. The handle is 28mm long (6 feet in scale) and I cut mine from 1mm thick walnut. The height/depth of the handle is 2mm at the pump end and 1mm at the sailors' hands. Other parts are copper wire, etched brass eyes, black paper, plastic tube. Pump components. Dowels and wires are over length to make handling easier Pumps finished and ready The pumps went into the box of finished parts and will be installed later. George

More deck furniture Working my way aft and avoiding the breast hook, the chimney came next. The housing is a simple box with a hole in the middle and the chimney itself looks like an open topped pipe on the Admiralty drawing, but I chose to give it an extra cowl to keep the rain out. I made the chimney from black aluminium foil (mine came from a very nice bottle of bubbly) with a bamboo barbeque stick in the middle as a former. It was a bit fiddly but I like the end result with black and exposed metal; the inside of the cowl needed a smudge of black paint to hide the aluminium. Work in progress on the chimney (other bottles of wine or bubbly also have black foil) Chimney fitted aft of the fore mast The fore ladderway came next. I had made the ladder previously from 2x0.5mm deck planking and stained it. The coaming is from 1x4mm walnut with overlap joints and has a ridge on the inside to support the hatch cover. The cover was made from strips of 0.5x4mm deck planking glued edge to edge, and then I fitted a frame to the under side. The shape of the frame was from imagination and a bit of practice making doors and gates. The mock hinges that hold the hatch cover to the aft end of the coaming are cut from copper plates and were chemically blackened. I added a rope on each side of the cover, tied to an eye with a bowline hitch and with a stopper knot at the end. The cover will be attached later when it will not be so vulnerable to getting knocked. Coaming and inside of the cover for the fore ladder way Upper face of the hatch cover with mock hinges Ladderway and coaming set aft of the chimney. There are a couple of mock hooks under the top step of the ladder to stop it sliding and falling... The hatch cover is safely stowed for now. George

The 12ft cutter I ordered on Friday arrived today (Tuesday) and is a beautifully crafted, delicate model. Like Glenn (glbarlow) says above it takes away the need to make a difficult extra on a larger model and I was bracing myself to scratch build a clinker hull out of thin card. I will still have to make the insides and the oars but that is a minor issue compared to the hull. Well done Chris for providing these extras. George

I have done a little more coppering, which was to fit brass rings over the support stands. These are plumbing olives which glue over the brass tubes easily. The ones by the keel, where the stand enters the hull, are purely decorative. Two that are lower down the brass tube sit on the wooden base and set the height of the hull and make sure the waterline is horizontal. I can now return to carving and improvising and making the fittings on the deck. First off was the bed for the bowsprit heel, which also has rings for the anchor bitts, and a fife rail. Both of these sit forward of the fore mast. The Haddock drawings provide a clear plan view but the side profile is lost among the other lines. The Cuckoo drawings are better for the side view. The pink colour is deliberate and is a close match to Bermudan cedar The fixed eyes are etched brass (Caldercraft) and the rings are from copper wire, all blackened with Carr's solution. I have started on a breasthook which looks somewhat like a boomerang. Work on it has paused while I try to work out how many holes for belaying pins I need to put in it; I will probably drill as many as will sensibly fit. More to come on this and a chimney. George

This is an impressive level of service! Thank you, Chris, for responding so quickly and positively. I will be ordering tomorrow. George

Chris, These little cutters look superb and I would use one on my HMS Whiting (Ballahou or Fish class schooner) apart from one tiny detail - they are too big! According to a log book I have read the boat was hoisted on board and the only space available to stow it is too small for even a 14 foot boat. Could you make a scaled down version as a 12 foot cutter? Please? It should not be too difficult with 3D printing... George

Ten years after writing Super detailing the cutter Sherbourne I see things in it which I would now do a little differently and some which would require a lot more time. It remains a guide for a beginner who wants to add more detail to a starter kit and it avoids major surgery and expenditure on new components. I have no plans to create a second edition because, despite retiring from real work, I simply do not have the time. I have had a few emails recently which ask if the book is still available and the short answer is yes. I have copies at home and can post them to you. The sales through Model Dockyard have stopped, now that Nick Tonkin has retired, but he passed on his remaining stock to Cornwall Model Boats. They are now down to zero, but if you prefer to buy from them then apply a little pressure and they should restock from me. Happy new year - 2022 George

Gregory, The Amati plates are 18.2mm long and 6.2mm wide (I leave it to you to convert these dimensions into inches...). I bought one pack and have 80 whole plates and a lot of trimmings left over. Allan, The debate about copper plates and nail patterns is similar to those about sails and ropes and wood grain. It is very difficult to get to a true scale size on a 1/64 model and the best we can achieve is to get something that looks right to our eyes. The complication is that my interpretation of 'right' will not be the same as what others think and it is hard to set an absolute standard. Let's take an example of the nail indentations in the main body of a plate. These are too small to be seen individually on many photographs but their regular patterns are picked up by our eyes which are good at that task. Your Connie photo above is a case in point and I can readily identify rows where individual nails are lost in the noise. I expect to see something on a model that reminds me of the nail pattern (personal preference, others hold different views) but the existing technology struggles to achieve that. Caldercraft's soup bowls are excessive, a plain copper sheet misses the point, and Amati are somewhere in between. Yes, the Amati marks are too big at scale but I would rather have something than nothing and at this point in life I do not want to start designing and making my own etched plates with smaller dots. Amati have made a compromise that suits me, and I do like the way their plates have blank edges to simulate overlaps. It does not suit everyone and I respect your opinions. A factual note, returning to the original theme of this thread. Vanguard Models make etched copper plates in 1/64 and have nail marks similar to those on Amati. Unfortunately, the dense nail pattern at the edges is on all the edges so it is not possible to butt them against each other to simulate overlapping. You have to either overlap them physically, which leaves a gross step, or cut off two edges from each plate which makes them too small and is tedious. That is why I chose Amati instead of Vanguard. (Btw flogging a dead donkey is an alternative to beating a dead horse. I find both acceptable as metaphors but would not indulge in them in real life.) Best wishes, George

I have recently completed coppering Whiting in 1/64 using the etched plates from Amati. These plates have a full nail pattern along two edges, one long and one short, and the other edges are blank. A few more nails adorn the middle of the plates. I trimmed back the blank edges to achieve close fits against the adjoining 'nailed' edges: this simulates the overlap and removes any problems of over-thick plates. (True thickness was about 0.8mm.) The plates come in port and starboard flavours. The hull is upside down here and shows the plates just below the waterline When the plating was finished I rubbed down the surface with grade 0000 steel wool and applied Renaissance Wax to protect it from the sweat on my fingers. At normal viewing distances the nail patterns are quite subtle and show that there was something there. Full details are on my build log. George

Thanks Wefalck and Phil for your further comments. My sketch of a sail plan was to indicate the names of the sails and I apologise if I caused confusion by drawing the flying jib sail so high. From my observations and your comments it is much more likely that this sail was just above the jib boom. I would guess that the tack was tied to a traveller on the jib boom while the halyard went up somewhere, probably to the top of the lower section of the fore mast so that it did not depend on the top mast being fitted. But I can be convinced either way. The picture below is of a model in the NMM Greenwich collection, Flora, dated 1825. This link should take you there but I have attached one of the three pictures. https://www.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/rmgc-object-66109 This is how I imagine Whiting was rigged, pretty much, though there will be some differences. On Flora the fore top gallant is fully rigged. I am reconsidering whether the fore top gallant was set flying on Whiting. The log book by John Roach has one entry which states 'PM Light Breezes Inclinable to Calm sent Down the Top Gallant Yard...' This contrasts with others such as 'at 7 all Sail Set Strong Breezes Took in the Gaff top Sail Flying jib sail top Galt Sail'. Perhaps I am reading too much into the words and he was describing the same thing, or it could be that the top gallant could be 'taken in' as well as being 'sent down'. If the meanings are the same then the top gallant was set flying, if they are different then it was rigged. I think I need to visit The National Archives again and photograph some more log books. George

Phil, Thanks for your analysis of the position of the fore stay which sounds quite logical and reasonable. It is backed up by John Roach's use of the phrase 'jib sail' which points to a forward location on the jib. People have reminded me occasionally that 'the clue is in the words'. I find that Marquardt's Global Schooner does not have quite enough information about the bowsprit and jib boom and I turn to another favourite of mine, Petrejus' Irene. Petrejus is thorough with his sources and writes extensively around a subject. His focus is the Cruizer class brig but so much transfers to a schooner. I have looked in Steel and found an entry for sloop's water sail on page 127. SLOOP'S WATER-SAIL. This sail is quadrilateral, cut square on the head, and made of canvas No. 7. It is occasionally spread under the boom of the main-sail in fair winds. The leeches are either cut square, or have one gored cloth. The depth of this sail is from one-half to three-fourths of the length of the boom, and it is 4 or 5 cloths wide. The bolt-rope, on the head, foot, and leeches, should be one inch and a half in circumference. *** When sloops have lower-studding-sails, they are similar to the water-sail: the leeches are square, and they are one yard deeper than the leech of the cross-jack, or square sail. Steel's words are quite clear about the location of the water sail and it being called a lower studding sail on a sloop. What is less clear is the illustration in plate 24 which suggests that the water sail is taller than it is wide - the head rope and foot rope are labelled on the drawing. The best interpretation that I can make is that 'head' and 'foot' refer to features of the sail as it is made and not as it is used. I suspect that Marquardt came to the same conclusion (or found another source) because his drawing on page 185 shows the water sail lying sideways with the cloths horizontal. I am still a student and thoroughly enjoy researching a topic to understand 'why'. Fortunately I have now retired from full time work and can devote more time to pursuing my studies. Best wishes for the New Year George

I have picked up on a comment in Marquardt Global Schooner, page 186, where he discusses studding sails. He says that the water sail which hangs below the boom at the stern can be regarded as the 'lower studding sail'. The ring tail sail above it is the matching upper studding sail. This can explain the entries in John Roach's log about a lower studding sail and the absence of anything about a square sail on the fore mast. The sail plan should have the lower (fore) studding sails removed and a water sail added. George

Rob, Your photos of Glory of the Seas are not visible at the moment. Some mistake with downloading? George

Phil, Thank you for your extensive comments which save me a lot of typing! I also hold Marquardt's Global Schooner in high regard and am sure that we have recommended this book to each other several times. I like that Marquardt quotes his sources though many of them are secondary and not primary. Books from 1800 are not necessarily correct (as with the Naval Chronicle for John Roach) and if the errors are repeated many times over the years they come to be regarded as fact and not an author's interpretation. Similarly, Marquardt's modern drawing of a Fish schooner has differences from the Haddock and Cuckoo drawings at Greenwich which I have studied extensively, and which makes me question the fine detail he includes in other illustrations. It is a great book, but apply some caution if you choose to follow it. Marquardt presents a lot of options in extensive detail but leaves open many decisions about which variety of rig was carried on any particular schooner outside his list of examples. The information from a log book for Whiting is historical evidence of the highest calibre and provides clear answers to some questions (eg top gallant sail was carried) but still leaves others open. One of these is about the fore sail / jib sail which was carried, but we do not know if the stay itself was tied to the stem post or the end of the bowsprit. This is where judgment comes into play and I rely on opinions from people like you to guide me. The decision in the end is mine and the mistake is mine if I get it wrong though in many cases the matter will remain unproven and we have a balance of probabilities. The next stage of modelling Whiting for me is to build the furniture on the hull. This includes pin rails around the masts and inside the chains and for them I want to know how many belaying pins are needed. To get that I have to know the rigging plan, which comes from the sail plan and the mast arrangements, which is why I am looking at this now. Building the masts and yards and sails is probably a year away at my build rate. More opinions please! George

Sail plans for schooners are poorly documented with little information about the varied combinations of sails that they carried. I am building HMS Whiting (Ballahoo or Fish class) and in the absence of any useful drawings have taken to reading log books. There is one by sub-Lieutenant John Roach that I photographed at The National Archives in Kew, London and have now partly transcribed. (Wikipedia calls him George Roach and gets it wrong. They refer to Rif Winfield and I think the original mistake is from the Naval Chronicle in 1806 which erroneously put George on Whiting. The log book clearly states John Roach.) There are lots of mentions of sails and sailing in Roach's log and I have noted which ones are present or missing. He also mentions some of the spars such as the jib boom which answer other questions. The sketch below is a summary of what I found. The drawing itself is based on one by Phil (Dr PR) and the proportions are not quite right for Whiting. https://modelshipworld.com/topic/25679-topsail-schooner-sail-plans-and-rigging/ Fore and aft sails, starting from the bow Flying jib. Several mentions. Jib. Comments such as 'took in the jib boom set the reefed jib' show that there was at least one row of reef points. There is no mention of a fore stay sail. There is one mention of a bonnet on the jib, Fore sail. This was used a lot and could be double reefed. Main sail. Like the fore sail this could also be close reefed. It was replaced by a try sail in bad weather. Main top sail. Several mentions. Ring tail sail. Several mentions. Square sails, starting from the deck There is no mention of a course or lower square sail in all the time from April to October. However, there is a curious reference to a 'lower' studding sail which might be alongside the (missing) course. Fore top sail. This was reefed and the mention of a 'first reef' suggests that there were probably two rows of reef points. Lots of mentions of studding sails (starboard and lee are two variations) which I presume are next to the top sail. Fore top gallant. This went up and down several times so was probably set flying. The log book does not give the mast arrangements. The main mast would have had a lower and a top section and I am fairly confident about that. The fore mast could be made from two or three sticks and Roach does not solve that problem for me. The top mast and top gallant mast could be one long pole, or they could be in two separate sections. At present I tend towards a combined top and top gallant mast, largely because the top gallant sail was (probably) set flying and would be relatively small. Later and larger schooners as shown in Peterssen had separate sticks. I might have to visit Kew again and photograph some more log books to get more snippets of information. I will include detailed interpretations in my build log for Whiting, but welcome comments on this post too. George