USS Constitution by Modeler12 - Cross-Section - Bow Area

[lambsbk]

I agree. I would use the masts as reference though. The diameter and location of these is not likely to have changed through the years. I am not so sure about the hatch location changes, if any.

 

Dave

[GLakie]

Might be able to help with this picture Jay. If you save it to your desktop, then zoom in, it should give you an idea where it actually is now.  

[usedtosail]

You can also go to the Google maps page and look at the stove from different angles:

 

https://www.google.com/maps/@42.372429,-71.056398,3a,75y,320.17h,95.15t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s6yRcVEMl1hYAAAQZLBJ9aQ!2e0!3e2!7i13312!8i6656

[JSGerson]

Here is an image from the opposite direction

[Modeler12]

Thanks fellows. Indeed those bird's eye views confirm that the Model Shipways drawings are correct. But then the stove pipe does not line up with what is below.

 

I have a number of photographs of the stove and looking at the beams overhead and the spaces between hatch covers it is still not totally clear where the stove is in reality. It is still possible that the aft riding bit is too far back (one set of beams), but that also means that the hatch on the gun deck (that is right behind the aft riding bit) is also too far back.

 

I am a bit too far into this thing to stop now and redo the gun deck and stove location (I think). But I will reconsider this some more.

Tom, your suggestion solved my problem. Google indeed shows that the riding bit and hatch on the gun deck should be one set of beams more forward. That means I have to take of some of the deck planking and relocate the riding bit and oven platform. But that is doable.

What it also shows is that there is another stairway down to the berth deck and that is good, because (besides the one coming down from the spar deck) it is the only one shown in this cross section.

This change could have been made back many years ago, but it would seem strange that the change involving those heavy riding bits and stove was made in the first place. Could it be that Marquardt is wrong again?

Edited July 17, 2015 by Modeler12

[Modeler12]

Here is what Tom referred to. You can see that the gun deck hatch extends to the left further than the main hatch above on the spar deck. The stairs to the right go up to that deck and now you can see the narrow stairs going down to the berth deck.

Great to know!!!

 

[Modeler12]

Tom, I want to thank you again for steering me in the right direction. Google has a couple more interesting 'walk throughs'.

The orlop deck, picture wise, was a complete mystery to me before (and, of course, the same with the powder room).

Here it is: https://www.google.com/maps/@42.372495,-71.056602,3a,90y,286.73h,83.24t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sOxclVsko0oMAAAQZN_whPw!2e0!3e2!7i13312!8i6656

 

This area is not open to the public and apparently has been modified to house the fire sprinkling system, for example. There are a number of 'original' knees that also seem to indicate that part of this deck was 'split level'.  HMMM!

 

The picture below appears to be the 'sail room'. It has shelves and cabinets on both sides of the ship. I would think that jib and fore sails would be hoisted through the hatch you see forward. But others would go aft along a hallway shown in Marquardt's drawings. I am not including the forward hatch. But since it shows going down, I believe it was the way for the boys to deliver powder sacks to the gun deck (from way down in hell).

 

When I get to it, I am still going with my fabricated plan for the powder room. it would have been underneath the orlop deck towards the front where, next to the fore mast, you can see two brass covers. Does any one know what all of that was about?

Credit goes to Google for the image below.

 

[Modeler12]

One more thing about the orlop deck. Below it shows that there might have been (or is) a split level.

Notice the old knee holding that part up.

Could that be part of the mid 'powder room'? The one forward surely has a lot less head room below the orlop.

The more I look at these pictures, the more I get confused.

[shiloh]

Fittings intended to pass ammo through or hoists are made of brass or aluminum, at least on the Helena, not so much where fixed ammo was handled but semi fixed ammo handling rooms and hoists were fairly well spark proof ed. The spaces where bag powder was handled, spark making material was not allowed, even the tools in those spaces were aluminum or bronze. Might interest some, that the bag guns had a series of flames for  their ignition systems. First was a 45 70  cartridge, 'looked like a blank or the line throwing gun cartridge', which sent a flame down through the mushroom stem into the black powder pad sewn onto the end of every bag of powder. That black powder is what set off the smokeless powder and was the compound that made handling powder bags dangerous. In the gun rooms water tanks were kept to dump the bags into during an emergency. You can bet that those brass hatches were a route for black powder cartridges to be passed through.

jud

Edited July 18, 2015 by shiloh

[mtaylor]

This change could have been made back many years ago, but it would seem strange that the change involving those heavy riding bits and stove was made in the first place. Could it be that Marquardt is wrong again?

 

That very well could be.  I recall when Gene Bodnar did his huge build of her that there were questions about Marquardt's being correct on several issues. 

 

 

Also, I believe Jud is right.  Those where the scuttles for passing the power bags up to the powder monkeys.

Edited July 18, 2015 by mtaylor

[lambsbk]

I agree - probably powder shuttles. Our resident MSW expert Henry (popeye2sea) would likely know for sure. He has been in all parts of the ship and knows them well. Give him a PM and ask.

 

Dave

[Modeler12]

I agree - probably powder shuttles. Our resident MSW expert Henry (popeye2sea) would likely know for sure. He has been in all parts of the ship and knows them well. Give him a PM and ask.

 

Dave

Indeed, Dave, Henry has been very helpful to me in the past. He went back to the ship and took special pictures of the rigging for me last year.

However, he is extremely busy right now with his commitment to cut wood samples from the refurbishing that is going on. I will send him an email but would expect slow or no answers until he has more time.

[Modeler12]

My problems are growing.
 

All along I have gone by the drawings provided by Marquardt and now the location of the riding bits on the gun deck are also causing problems on the berth and orlop decks. Just like the gun deck where the hatch cover extends further forward, so do the hatches on the other decks.

I had noticed that Marquardt had added an extra beam but now it also seems that his drawings of the orlop deck are in question. And I don't believe it is simply a matter of past remodeling. Looking at the images of the Google clips, the forward section of that deck is very short before it drops down to where perhaps the anchor cables were stored. Looking up at that point you can see the extended grating of the berth deck.

Notice also the little porthole in the wall. There is a similar one on the other side. Barely visible is the inside where there are gratings that again lead down presumably into the powder room. What is not shown in any of the Google pictures is the entrance to the light room. It certainly is not where Marquardt shows it. Could one of those two grating be for the light room? Help, Henry!!!

 

The next picture is taken on the berth deck and shows the same grating and the opening for the stairs going down. The ship's bow is to the left. The little cubicle is probably the cabin for one of the officers. 

My cross section starts at the right edge of the grating.

[GLakie]

Seems like too many inconsistencies in his book to just be a coincidence Jay. Kind of glad I haven't invested money in his book yet. 

[Modeler12]

Seems like too many inconsistencies in his book to just be a coincidence Jay. Kind of glad I haven't invested money in his book yet. 

To be honest with you, George, I still think the book has real value as long as you don't do as I am trying to do.

The drawings are mostly very good. The details of the rigging helped me tremendously. It is just too bad that he made some errors in the  four decks (and yes I am including the spar deck because he is at least consistent and had the stove pipe in the wrong position there also. Besides he left off the hatch just forward of the fore mast).

What the Google images show is that the forward section of the orlop deck is mostly the sail room with two cabins just aft. The doors look new and there are padlocks on both. Curious what is inside. There is also the carpenter's walk between the cabin walls and hull planking, just like Marquardt shows.

 

Just to update: I have removed the planking on the gun and berth deck to make room for the extended grating. I will have to make new frames for those hatches.  That also meant that the carlings and joists between the second and third beams had to be cut away and replaced. Now it is back to the drawing board to design those hatches with stairs and gratings as Google shows. However, the passage way is right midship and there is no indication on the beams and deck planking to indicate that walls and openings were removed (eg the light room etc,)

 

I am leaving the orlop deck along until I can get some answers about what that area used to look like. Right now I think there were too many changes made down there. 

Edited July 18, 2015 by Modeler12

[mtaylor]

Jay,

The problem here may not be Marquardt but the period in time...  if that makes sense.  The way the ship sits now isn't the way it was built from what I'm understanding.  The MS model is based on the 1929 refit.  I have no idea what Marquardt based his book on but apparently there are issues that Gene B. found.  I guess the question is:  which problems need fixing and which can you live with based on the available information since it is conflicting information?

[Modeler12]

Ok Mark, I understand that there were many changes, both in 1929 and before. However, I really doubt that moving those large riding bits was one of them, no matter what time frame. It would have meant a reconstruction of the forward end of all decks for no apparent reason.

 

Look at the layout of the hatches on each deck and tell me again that those openings were not original? The grating is new, to be sure, but not the openings between beams. At least I don't think all those beams were replaced and moved

 

What I can live with is a logical interpretation of all those factors, but when I see pictures of what is today and it does not correspond to what the drawings (Marquart's) show, I begin to doubt. Locations and size of the hatches is one, and there are many more in my opinion. I don't want to belittle the author's input, but in this case I stand firm: He was wrong in this part.

[mtaylor]

Jay,

 

I agree.. he's wrong.  I was just trying to figure how why and how since it doesn't make sense.. those are obvious errors... 

[popeye2sea]

Tom, I want to thank you again for steering me in the right direction. Google has a couple more interesting 'walk throughs'.

The orlop deck, picture wise, was a complete mystery to me before (and, of course, the same with the powder room).

Here it is: https://www.google.com/maps/@42.372495,-71.056602,3a,90y,286.73h,83.24t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sOxclVsko0oMAAAQZN_whPw!2e0!3e2!7i13312!8i6656

 

This area is not open to the public and apparently has been modified to house the fire sprinkling system, for example. There are a number of 'original' knees that also seem to indicate that part of this deck was 'split level'.  HMMM!

 

The picture below appears to be the 'sail room'. It has shelves and cabinets on both sides of the ship. I would think that jib and fore sails would be hoisted through the hatch you see forward. But others would go aft along a hallway shown in Marquardt's drawings. I am not including the forward hatch. But since it shows going down, I believe it was the way for the boys to deliver powder sacks to the gun deck (from way down in hell).

 

When I get to it, I am still going with my fabricated plan for the powder room. it would have been underneath the orlop deck towards the front where, next to the fore mast, you can see two brass covers. Does any one know what all of that was about?

Credit goes to Google for the image below.

orlop 10001.jpg

 

The hatch might go down to the powder room. I have never been down that one.   I know that there is another hatch that does go down to the poder room that is located in that short corridor aft of the sail/bosuns? locker.  The brass covers you see are covers to light boxes.  Under the cover is a small box that a lantern was lowered into.  A fixed/permanent glazed porthole is cut into the bulkhead of the magazine.  This is the only light source for the magazines and allowed light without the chance of an open flame in the magazine.  There are 4 light boxes for the forward magazine and 4 for the after magazine. The after magazine is accessed from a hatch on the starboard side just forward of the bulkhead that separates the tiller and its gear from the berth deck.

 

Regards,

[popeye2sea]

My problems are growing.

 

All along I have gone by the drawings provided by Marquardt and now the location of the riding bits on the gun deck are also causing problems on the berth and orlop decks. Just like the gun deck where the hatch cover extends further forward, so do the hatches on the other decks.

I had noticed that Marquardt had added an extra beam but now it also seems that his drawings of the orlop deck are in question. And I don't believe it is simply a matter of past remodeling. Looking at the images of the Google clips, the forward section of that deck is very short before it drops down to where perhaps the anchor cables were stored. Looking up at that point you can see the extended grating of the berth deck.

Marquardt 5.jpg

Notice also the little porthole in the wall. There is a similar one on the other side. Barely visible is the inside where there are gratings that again lead down presumably into the powder room. What is not shown in any of the Google pictures is the entrance to the light room. It certainly is not where Marquardt shows it. Could one of those two grating be for the light room? Help, Henry!!!

 

The next picture is taken on the berth deck and shows the same grating and the opening for the stairs going down. The ship's bow is to the left. The little cubicle is probably the cabin for one of the officers. 

My cross section starts at the right edge of the grating.

orlop 15.jpg

Your photo that shows the portholes shows the short passageway into the sail locker leading towards the left.  Behind the portholes are indeed the hatches that lead down into the forward magazine.  Inside the short passage are a couple of cabins that have been converted to modern damage control stations.  To the right in that picture is the main part of the hold.

 

Regards,

[popeye2sea]

One more thing about the orlop deck. Below it shows that there might have been (or is) a split level.

Notice the old knee holding that part up.

orlop 6.jpg

Could that be part of the mid 'powder room'? The one forward surely has a lot less head room below the orlop.

The more I look at these pictures, the more I get confused.

 

The hatch in the aft berth deck goes go down into the orlop, but there is a tween deck aft which you see in this picture.  Beneath this tween deck is the after powder magazine.  It has a single hatch aft on the starboard side and 4 light boxes.  Located on the tween deck are a number of cabins that I believe were used by the warrants as workshops, i.e.: carpenter, etc.  At 5' 4" I am a short guy but even I have to bend way over to walk across the tween deck.  I believe it was suitable to do work down there only when seated.

 

One other item to note in this picture.  All those bulkheads to the left of the photo are not original to the ship.  Behind those are the main mast step and the pump well.  Currently the fire fighting pumps are there.

 

Regards,

Edited July 19, 2015 by popeye2sea

[trippwj]

I would not be so harsh with Marquadt. His AoTS is an attempt to describe and show as built, based on best available information AT THE TIME! Considering how many times the ship has been rebuilt, any type of reconfiguration, including riding bitts, is probable. Do not look at any features today and assume they were always there!

 

If you doubt the Marquadt drawings, find better sources yourself. I have shared many times the most authoritative source (Humphreys, Fox, and various others in the War Department), including links to the scanned documents. Even the venerable Tyrone Martin has gotten things wrong concerning the Connie.

[Modeler12]

Thanks Henry. That is good information and I will have to digest all the details.
 

Considering that there are two brass covers in the sail room for the lanterns, I am going to assume that the forward magazine goes the full width of the ship and that the bulkhead with the glazed window likewise goes all the way across. The two hatch covers just inside the small recesses next to the stairs are the only entrances to the magazine. They must have been used to lower the barrels of gun powder, the boys who did the work down there and to bring up the leather pouches with the cartridges. Unless there was another scuttle to pass up those cartridge pouches. I know that once inside there were strict rules to keep out moisture and prevent any possible sources of sparks, etc.

 

Maybe some day I'll come and visit you and the ship and we can go down into that powder room and explore    

[trippwj]

Jay -

 

Attached are two contemporary drawings that may be of use to you.

 

Ware drawing (1816) of the Constitution Orlop Deck

 

1819 Ware plan Orlop.pdf

 

Ware (?1820) Frigate United States decks.

 

87196001.pdf

Edited July 19, 2015 by trippwj

[trippwj]

This plan may take a bit more pondering.  It is listed as Ware (1819) Spar Deck Beams, but appears to show both the spar deck (top half) and another deck (Gun Deck?) below it.

 

15154-.pdf

[Modeler12]

Thanks Wayne. I will check this out. I appreciate your help in solving some of these mysteries.

 

Here is one possible solution to the question I raised about a scuttle to deliver the pouches of gun powder cartridges from down in the powder room. I could not find any holes in the floors other than the two rectangular ones that Henry indicated as being the place where lamps were lowered into the 'light room'. 

 

However, the two hatches next to the stairs show a wooden cover with a round hole in the center. That hole would be big enough for the pouches to go through. So my guess is that once the grating had been removed and the boys were inside, this cover with the hole would be placed over the hatch to close everything off. In fact, there is even a sliding bolt on the inside to lock this cover in place????

 

Notice in the picture that the hold to the left has a false floor. The keel would be some distance lower, making the headroom available for the powder room a bit more than what may seem at first.

[trippwj]

My goodness I am busy today - sorry if it seems I am hijacking your thread, Jay!

 

Hank, in MSW 1 and again when MSW 2.0 came on-line, shared a spreadsheet he had compiled from the Josiah Fox Papers #773 - Hull Data,  Here is an excerpt of the 44 gun Frigates (note that the Constitution was not included in the data).  I believe the source is at the PEM in the Fox papers.  You may be able to make some close approximations to the location of the bitts during the period of interest by relating to the United States and the President.

 

 

[Modeler12]

This plan may take a bit more pondering.  It is listed as Ware (1819) Spar Deck Beams, but appears to show both the spar deck (top half) and another deck (Gun Deck?) below it.

 

15154-.pdf

Wayne, if I understand these two drawings correctly, they confirm what I now believe is the correct layout. The lower half is the plan for the gun deck and it shows the hatches going further forward than the main one on the spar deck. It also shows a small square to the right that would be the post for the riding bits.

 

The beams on the orlop deck are now marked with numbers starting with one near the bow. The beam just aft of the fore mast is five and as you go further aft they correspond to the eleventh beam that is part of what I am using for my cross section. 

Marquardt shows the little square (aft riding bit) between beams nine and ten whereas the drawing you reference has that square between beams eight and nine (more forwards).

[Modeler12]

Jay -

 

Attached are two contemporary drawings that may be of use to you.

 

Ware drawing (1816) of the Constitution Orlop Deck

 

1819 Ware plan Orlop.pdf

 

Ware (?1820) Frigate United States decks.

 

87196001.pdf

Wayne, thanks for these drawings also. The first one confirms the size of the forward orlop deck as it is now (per the Google map pictures and the numbers of the beams. The last picture I show above has the hold drop right where the stairs stop. That corresponds to the drawing  '1819 Ware plan Orlop'. 

Marquardt shows the hold to be further aft and includes more than is really there.

 

I think I am going to modify my orlop deck to look like the drawing above and the current layout.

[Modeler12]

One more comment about the Ware drawing of the orlop deck.

 

I studied that drawing some more and noticed several differences as well as similarities with the current layout. The drawing has numbers that are referenced to the right and it again shows that the orlop deck stops at the hold, but there is a part where the anchor cables were stored. Then the center passage way used to be narrower and the side rooms were for storage by various persons such as the boatswain and gunner's room. The sail-room was only on the starboard side.

 

There is a scuttle going down (only one) in the same location I showed in the last picture above. But it does not mention what is below the orlop. A tiny room forward is called the 'fill room' with a light outside but it seems awfully tiny.

 

Just as was mentioned by several of you, there have been many changes over the years. Walls were moved and rooms were changed. But I am also sure that some of the features such as the size of the orlop deck has remained the same.

Again Wayne, thanks for the info.