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HMS Fly by Johnnyreg - Victory Models - Scale 1:64


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Hi All

For anyone that wants to join me and more importantly HELP me, welcome aboard.

This is only my second build. My first build was a Billing Norden, so this is a big step up in the challenge stakes.

I did enjoy building my Norden and I was very pleased with the finished model. However I built it to look exactly like the picture on the box , which is why I bought it, without doing much research. This build will be different and I fully intend researching prior to progressing too far and I would also like to do some scratch building here and there. I've read some of the other Fly logs here which have given me some ideas (thanks to them).

The reason I chose the Fly is because I just love the look of it, and I wanted a real challenge.

The HMS Fly kit and the upgrade kit arrived last week and 10 minutes later I was into the box. There is obviously lots of stuff in the box but here is just some of it as I didn’t take many pictures.

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I was pleasantly surprised when I rummaged through the instructions and drawing sheets, which give far more information than my Billing kit did, and seem to be made of good quality paper, time will tell.

Hang what’s this on the box? !!! Really…

IMG_0146.thumb.JPG.d75cbc0949bb72617a1a171f0c307833.JPG

First thing I wanted to do was check the contents…

Checking done and there are a few items on the parts list that are missing and also not referenced on the drawing sheets or instructions:

Item 3a - Deck support frame - Brian (probablynot) kindly informed me his kit also has this item missing and thinks it's now redundant and might get in the way of other items fitted later. I guessed it went between 2a and 4a here…

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Items 271 and 272 Quarter figure castings (left & right) - Not sure yet if these are missing or redundant, can anyone shed any light on these please?

Otherwise everything looks in order.

Next I checked the rigging twine and marked up for later.

IMG_0145.thumb.JPG.ab0a49f2716b16317001c488e515bb1a.JPG

 

Let’s get started…

I pencilled the part numbers on the laser cut bulkhead and keel parts and then carefully cut these out of their respective sheets. I then assembled these dry and everything fits really well.

I should point out that these parts are made from 5mm laser cut MDF not ply as the parts list says, but from what I've read on other Fly builds I think this is the norm now.

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And this is where I’m at. I feel I need to read some of the logs here some more and do more research before I get the glue out.

I’ve ordered the first two Seawatch FFM books as it appears that a number of the Fly/Pegasus builders here rate them highly. I’m also looking on the National Maritime Museum website and trying to find the original Fly drawings but I’m struggling to find them. If anyone has had more luck than me, a few pointers would be greatly appreciated? Also anyone who has obtained copies, were they any help? What is the quality and size?

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Nice kit - I’m working on the Pegasus and think Amati did a really nice job with them.

 

Cant help you with the Fly drawings.  Maybe Martin or some other Fly builders can be a more help?  The TFFM books (and maybe Admiraltymodels.com) have s list of the plan identifiers for each Swan Class ship.  Maybe try there?

 

Good luck with the build!

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This is a great kit. Are the instructions detailed enough? I am building the Amati Santa Maria and I found the planking instructions to be very poor. Basically nothing is instructed. I had to search other materials to complete the planking and that was a little bit frustrating. I am wondering if the Victory models instructions are any different. I will follow your build log with great interest. Happy modelling!

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36 minutes ago, Landlubber Mike said:

Nice kit - I’m working on the Pegasus and think Amati did a really nice job with them.

 

Cant help you with the Fly drawings.  Maybe Martin or some other Fly builders can be a more help?  The TFFM books (and maybe Admiraltymodels.com) have s list of the plan identifiers for each Swan Class ship.  Maybe try there?

 

Good luck with the build!

Hi Mike

 

Thanks for following and welcome aboard.

 

Thanks for pointing me in the right direction re the Fly drawings which I've now found.

For anyone else who's looking, the list is here

http://www.admiraltymodels.com/NMM_Swan_class_plans__3_.pdf

if you make a note of all the ZAZxxxx numbers for your ship and then go to the NMM Collections site here

http://collections.rmg.co.uk/collections.html#!cbrowse

click "more search options" and tick "finding reference" and type your ZAZxxxx number and search it should come up. You can then view online or add to your own collection, if you've registered.

 

John

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Oliver24 and Chris, Thanks for dropping by.

 

Oliver24: The instructions are not too bad regarding where to start the planking and some of the techniques you will need to apply. This is only my second model so this is an area I am unsure about also. I'm hoping the FFM books will help me complete this stage. If you want to get a heads up on what the kit instructions are like you can download both the manuals from historicships.com site after finding the Fly kit.

 

Chris: thanks for the welcome. I can now view the Fly drawings online, now I have the reference numbers. They are a bit pricey aren't they. Following your good advice, I will wait until I've received the FFM books

 

Cheers

John

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I have built a couple of Fly/Pegasus (And also passed on a build see the link below)

They are a lovely model  and the builders logs on here are excellent. (remember Pegasus is virtually identical and the logs apply)

 

Only one fault really - Fly aft metal castings are TERRIBLE! but even so at least one builder has made a great job of them but think about replacing with Pegasus photo etch

 

There is a list in the linked log where I flagged up some of the practical issues i had found.

 

Dont rush just enjoy

Edited by SpyGlass
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Oh there are a couple of logs that have  inspired me

https://modelshipworld.com/index.php?/topic/15526-hms-pegasus-by-blue-ensign-finished-victory-models-164-scale/

 A beutiful FINISHED Pegasus build with lots and lots of really good info.

 and

 

https://modelshipworld.com/index.php?/topic/2797-hms-fly-by-aliluke-amati-164/

Just lovely work  on a FLY build - unfortunately like my Peggy parked at teh moment but really good guide to the point where it lefy off

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Hi SpyGlass

 

It's a honour to have you drop by. I'm on a mission to read all the Fly & Pegasus builds on here before I start my build and I'm up to MartinW's Fly up to now, so I've still a fair way to go. I did have a quick look at your co build and the hull work is amazing. I'm reading the builds in order so as not to miss any but I look forward to reading your co build in full. If my hull is half as good as yours I'll be very happy.

 

I did know they were sister ships and I did struggle to choose which one to build and now I've forgotten why I ended up choosing the Fly.

 

I wasn't too impressed with the castings either. I will have a look at the Pegasus photo etched ones so thanks for that.

 

Cheers

John

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The Plan I have from the NMM is

http://prints.rmg.co.uk/art/493513/lines-plan-of-hms-pegasus-1776

 

just so much detail and its all REAL !! .

 

There were actually many more lovely logs that got lost in the "Big Crash"

 

As a side line - just to make you sick with jealousy - have a look at Dan Vadas's  Swan Class build -  HMS Vulture Build Log Resurrection   throws some interesting light on details.

 

thank you for the compliments -  but others are so much better at everything!

 

The hull actually is one of the easier ones to get right - I have built several this size Unicorn, Snake Cruizer etc ect and this one just "falls right"

 

Once the dreaded S bends are in the gunport strips of course. Though some seem to have nooo problem there eiterh !

 

So much fun

 

 

 

Edited by SpyGlass
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Yes I was toying with buying some plans from NMM myself but I'm holding off for now till I get the FFM books (1 & 2) there's five plans for the Fly @ £25 each. I bet they are things of beauty.

 

I will definitely check out the Dan Vadas Vulture build, thank you.

11 hours ago, SpyGlass said:

The hull actually is one of the easier ones to get right - I have built several this size Unicorn, Snake Cruizer etc ect and this one just "falls right"

 

Once the dreaded S bends are in the gunport strips of course. Though some seem to have nooo problem there eiterh !

 

So much fun

I've only done planking once before on my Norden and no one has seen it before because I used filler and paint to hide it. Here it is

IMG_5170.thumb.JPG.cb868954c03e1b939d6fc9ceb50dbc8c.JPG

I won't be doing this on my Fly although I was planning on painting below the waterline anyway. Having said that I wouldn't be happy with it unless it was perfect all over. I'm hoping the FFM books will help me achieve this. 

 

The dreaded gunport strips do seem to be troublesome for a lot of the builders here but at the moment that bit seems a million miles away. I'll cross that "bridge" when I come to it ;)

 

Thanks for all this info it's exactly what I need. Thanks for all the likes also.

 

John

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For the TFFM books, depending on how much you want to kit bash the hull, volume 2 will help a lot.  Volume 1 has good tips and some information, but I think you could get by without it.  Volume 4 is really, really great for rigging and sails - I used it for my Badger build.  It consolidates a lot of information from Lees and other primary sources on rigging and masting.  Volume 3 is nice too if you'd like to see the steps of a scratch built Pegasus hull come together.

 

For the NMM plans, I have to say that at least with respect to the Pegasus, the kit plans and decorative elements are pretty much dead on.  There is a very slight modification when it comes to the some of the aft-most bitts and hatches.  On the NMM plans, one or two hatches are in a slightly different location, with one of the bitts going through one of the hatches.  Also, the cross bar on one of the bitts is facing aft on the NMM plans, while the kit has all cross bars facing the stem.  The NMM plans also show a more decorative figurehead than the kit one (which is still nice), though I understand that sometimes the plans were more aspirational than what ultimately went on the ship.  These are very minor deviations from the NMM plans, and my sense is that in cases like the hatches/bitts, these differences were made to simplify things a little for the builder.  If you look at my Pegasus log you can see how I handled the hatches/bitts.

 

It's been a while since I looked at the Fly plans, but from what I remember, they were really nice, and very detailed when it comes to the decorative elements on the stern, quarter galleries, and maybe even include the decorative friezes.  I think they were spot on with the kit, whereas the Pegasus differed slightly with respect to some elements of the stern decorations.

 

One other thing I should mention - the cannons seem to be a bit oversized, at least that is what Pegasus and Fly builders have found in the kits we got (maybe newer kits addressed the issue).  I ended up buying RB Model cannons, and others have bought Syren model's cannons.

 

To sum it up, the Pegasus kit was really well done and pretty much spot on when it came to matching up with the NMM plans.  I think the Fly is the same way, and I would say that you can build a very accurate model of the ships straight from the box and don't need TFFM or the NMM plans.  I bought them as for me, I really enjoy the learning that goes along with building.

Edited by Landlubber Mike
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If that is your first and only planking  - its amazing !! Well done

 

Even if you ignore all my other advice please take note of the points in my early ections of my log below

 

BEFORE THE GLUE

 

  • Sort your mounting points into the keel if you are going to use any.
  • Cut your basic keel rabbet .
  • Decide where you are going to put your bearding line

         ( and if you are going to stop the first layer short as I do) - then  sand the aft keel .

  • Do most of the shaping of the forrad and aft bulkhead pieces

 

 

Oh and just a note/query

 

you say you have MDF keel and frames - like Pegasusu that is great.

 

BUT check also - is the deck one or two pieces

and is it "normal "  ply - good !!

or the weird stuff that came with my Pegasus - bad !!

 

 

Edited by SpyGlass
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very happy to catch your build log!   usually I don't find it till I smell sawdust ;)    looks like a really nice kit....don't think I've ever dealt with MDF.....gotta sand better that plywood and you won't have to worry about ply separation {I've had my share of that}.   looking forward in seeing you progress :) 

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Mike, SpyGlass & Denis.

 

Mike:  Thanks for your very detailed and informative post.

I think I will end up buying all the FFM books eventually for the same reason as you but 1&2 will do for starters (already ordered)

I've read other builders views on the canon scale and I think I might go for the RB ones myself after I've checked the scales for myself. Did you use the smaller RB canons for the swivel ones too? 

 

I looked up your build posts regarding the bitts and hatch anomalies and I have a rough idea what you mean but to be honest my primitive brain now hurts and it's late. I've made a note to revisit your posts, on page 8, when I get to that bit and have the bits (bitts) in my hands and I'm sure I'll understand better so thanks for warning me.

 

SpyGlass: Thanks for your kind words regarding my previous attempt at planking. Will do better next time though. 

I won't be ignoring yours or anyone's advice. Don't worry I'm making plenty of notes.

Re your BEFORE THE GLUE points, good advise indeed. I was thinking about 2 brass pillar mounting points so will google a source for these, unless anyone knows of one, preferably in the UK?

Not sure about my skill level on doing a rabbet yet. I have questions about these see below.

 

Denis: Welcome aboard. It was your kind words of encouragement that prompted me to do this build log so thanks for that. I'll try not to let you down. If I make a fool of myself it's all your fault ;).

 

Questions for all:

1. When these full size boats were built I doubt they used one plank for the full length of the hull so what are your thoughts about shorter lengths for the second planking? Would you simulate this with scoring or use separate sections to highlight the different wood shades.

2. I'm trying to get my head round rabbets and tapering the aft keel area. Would you cut a rabbet to accommodate both sets of planking (1.5 + 1.0 = 2.5mm wide) or just the 2nd layer (1.0mm wide)? 

I've made this sketch of how I think the aft keel area will look, am I on the right lines?

View from above Rudder post:

IMG_2388.thumb.jpg.294e01205c4cc2bc4e1d85f15b8deddb.jpg

 

Cheers

John

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is the bow,  keel, and stern post thicker than the center spine?   if so,  you may not need to much more than a slight bevel on both sides,  along the edge of the center spine.   the rabbit is nothing more that an indention in the keel,  so the planking will have a place to fit into,  to give it a seamless appearance.  it will help at the bow,  giving the plank a slot to be inserted in.   it will help the garboard plank along the keel......no gap.   it will help in terminating the plank at the stern....you won't end up with a thick stern contour.   I've haven't done it much.....most of the kits I've done supplied addition parts to be located at the bow and stern.  they act as bumper stops for the planking, giving an additional surface to adhere it to.   what I do for the garboard plank,  is bevel the edge that is going to butt up to the keel,  which works equally as well.

   for the first planking it won't matter as much.  the main objective is to get the contour of the hull as good as you can.   sanding and filling {if necessary} will refine it to receive the second planking.  you can go full strip or what would be called scale planking.   there is a formula for the scale which your model is based,  but I'm not too good with it,  so I cut my planks to fit two or three bulkheads.  tapering is easier,  since you'd be dealing with a much shorter length of planking...easier to fit.

   I've only second planked one ship.....most of the other models I've done were painted over anyway.....it would have been a waste of good planking.   the preferred method for second planking is scale planking.  someone with more knowledge of it can tell you more

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I believe I did get smaller cannons for the swivel guns.  Don’t remember if they were RB of not.  I believe they were.  I also have some Caldercraft ones that could work.

 

For hull planking, the planking runs were certainly made up of multiple planks.  TFFM (I believe volume 2) has a sample hull planking diagram.  Shorter planks, especially if you spile them, will be less prone to clinking.

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Denis, Mike.

 

Thank you both for your good advice. 

11 hours ago, popeye the sailor said:

is the bow,  keel, and stern post thicker than the center spine?

Denis: They are all the same (5mm). Forgot to mention that the sketch in my last post is a cross section of the 5mm Walnut Rudder Post and the 5mm MDF main keel which shows the proposed tapering to 3mm. 

 

I think I am now about 95% sure on the theory on how the planking is to be done but will hang fire until the FFM books arrive before I start. Besides there are other things to get on with before the hull planking.

 

Mike: I looked at the caldercraft swivel cannons and they do 2 lengths (14.5 & 17mm) and are pre drilled for pivot pin. I will add these to my choices. Thanks for that.

 

I think I will go with scale planking based on both your advice and being historically correct.

 

John

 

 

 

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you'll be happy you did.....then you can better shape and taper the planks,  as Mike suggests.  look online as well on the subject....there are tutorials and photos you can find,  while your waiting for the books.  since the keel add on parts and the center spine is the same thickness,  you will need to bevel the center spine enough to give yourself a good rabbit......I'm sure that will be in your books as well.  for a closer idea,  look in the scratch build forum at the beginnings of some of those projects.   doesn't have to be the Fly, but something close.   you'll see how folks did it on their keels and  you can apply the method to yours......how deep the indent etc.   I'm not too familiar,  but there are folks here........you'll be fine.......I've babbled enough  ;) 

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Ok  this is how I DO IT not the best or fanciest but it works for me.  (My Pickle log covers this quite well with more pictures I suggest you go through that for clarity NOTE Pickle uses thinner wood the numbers below are for FLY)

 

Overall view of what I do  -after first planking stage

 

PICKLEIMG_0596.thumb.JPG.078741a163a9d9dc99489c2fdf755ffd.JPG Not sure which one -but  PEGASUS or FLY

IMG_5691.thumb.JPG.d726bc19a08b72b27ae14246b0aa789f.JPG

  • First  the stern(- doing things back wards !!)

 

 The simple maths show the problem.

           You have a 5mm walnut stern post and false keel to butt the planking against

         You have 1.5 mm Lime first planking , 1mm walnut second planking  and  5mm ply or MDF main keel

         SO  - 2 X 1.5 MM    +  2 X 1.0MM  (equals 5MM)  +  5MM = 10mm

     WHOOPS we are 5mm oversize  so somethings got to give..

 

I terminate the first planking early along a line midway between the stern and the bearding line and smooth that inot the run

From that midway line I smooth down the ply/mdf keel to a 3mm edge allowing

second planking strip alone to be fitted without trying to adjust the thickness except for final sanding.

 

  • The keel

           your drawing is of course correct BUT that amount of detail is just not needed.

 

TWO APPROACHES

1  HERETICAL -You can simply ignore any rabbetting along the length of the first keel strip and just " angle" the edge to sit flush against the keel face = works fine and NOBODY WILL NOTICE !!

 

2 SIMPLE - the one I use.

With ply just take back the first ply layer both sides of the keel section when walnut false keel is place - LO you have a rabbet

With mdf more fiddly but Just aim to take a mm of both sides - the recess does NOT need to be angled much if at all

 

 

Finally the stem

 

This I DO think matters.

 

A simple but good rabbet here makes for much neater joins stem to plank and the rabbet itself is a GREAT help in the planking to hold the ends of the strips

But again doesnt have to be complicated .

I finish the first planking just a teeny bit short and with that 1ply layer or1mm off the keel filing the end of the first planking creates a rebbete with a crips edge formed by the stem walnut  ( you need to run the rabbet through the "tongue" on the stem walnut piece

Edited by SpyGlass
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Denis, SpyGlass & Don

 

Denis: Great advice thank you. Don't worry I can't get enough info and while the Admiral is watching her high class TV (Not) I spend hours reading online, watching vids, etc. Too much time spent sometimes because I get the look (you know that look) ;)

 

SpyGlass: Thanks for the very detailed advise. There's a lot of waste MDF so I am going to practice all these techniques until I'm happy with them. I think that's the only way now for it all to fall into place.

 

Don: Thanks for following and welcome aboard. Hope you enjoy the voyage.

 

Cheers

John

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On my Peggy log here https://modelshipworld.com/index.php?/topic/420-hms-pegasus-by-simonthepieman-victory-models-164-started-by-spyglass/&do=findComment&comment=4616

I ilisutrated how I used to do my rabbets using the ply/MDF sheet as a guide.  I later found it easier in practice just to "pop off" a layer of ply,.

But with mdf i wonder if there is any milegae in "shimming" a 1mm with scrap ro allow a sweep with a dremel to make the thicknesisng eader

Edited by SpyGlass
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3 a is a missing bit deliberately I think  BUT I sometimes added in sort of half beams just for strength because the foredeck I found "bounced" a bit

 

The other bits  271 and 272 I cant help with unless you can provide more info- I dont remember any bits like that missing from FLY but I no longer have to hand my Fly parts list  But my mind has just striirrred and there were some odd and sods pieces of metal that took me some time to identify !

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Hi SpyGlass.

 

Just realised I forgot to answer a previous question...apologies.

On 23/01/2018 at 3:27 PM, SpyGlass said:

BUT check also - is the deck one or two pieces

and is it "normal "  ply - good !!

or the weird stuff that came with my Pegasus - bad !!

The main deck is in two pieces and it looks pretty flimsy, like I could easily put my thumb through it. All decks are the same ply material so some extra support may be necessary. Thanks for the warning.

 

3 hours ago, SpyGlass said:

The other bits  271 and 272 I cant help with unless you can provide more info- I dont remember any bits like that missing from FLY but I no longer have to hand my Fly parts list  But my mind has just striirrred and there were some odd and sods pieces of metal that took me some time to identify !

Here is the parts list section showing all castings and the drawing sheet. No extra, unidentified, casting in the box.

IMG_2396.thumb.jpg.5c1c33931bb8eaacc03128a3a4241e02.jpg

IMG_2394.thumb.jpg.e4fa54b5caea273f85e4e5a672d15443.jpg

 

John

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Ohhhhhh dear on the deck !!!

 

It seems as if its the "new Pegasus Style" ply if you look carefullythe surface is not a sheet but sort of match stick pieces - its terrible.

Sooo points arising from that ply.

1 Other bits and pieces will be made from the same ply - more of a problem with Pegasus because of things like the quarter badge mountings but BE CAREFUL

2 Dont fiddle with it - it crumbles.

3 Extra supports are advised especially along centre line

 

I cant find any trace of the missing pices so far so I suspect they are indeed just no longer included. But I have  some more pics i shall have a look at.

Anyway you may wish to buy the Pegasus PE bits which is a really nice upgrade - but personally i dont like the guns and boats etc that come with the full upgrade pack just the PE decoration.

Edited by SpyGlass
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7 hours ago, SpyGlass said:

Ohhhhhh dear on the deck !!!.

 

SpyGlass: Don't worry I will be careful. I took the decks out of their sheets to try out and promptly taped them back in to protect till needed. Other points noted thank you.

 

I will presume pieces 271 & 272 are redundant, unless told otherwise.

 

I'm not sure what you mean by Pegasus PE bits but I have the Fly upgrade kit. Are they one and the same? If not where do you get it from please?

 

I have indeed looked at Chris Coyles Fly log. It's a thing of beauty.

 

The good news is I made some sawdust today (let's see if Denis smells it). Don't get too excited though as all I've done is remove the blips from the keel & bulkhead parts. I was going to practice doing a rabbet on some scrap mdf but when I got my hobby power tool out, which I bought years ago and have never used, I realised it was cheap and not fit for purpose. The collet wobbled and it vibrated badly so it went straight into the bin. Long story short I ordered a proper one and it should be with me tomorrow so I can hopefully crack on. 

 

Cheers

John

 

 

 

 

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