Providence by KenW - FINISHED - 1:48 - Colonial Sloop

[Mike_In_RI]

Hi Ken, you have a really beautiful model in progress. I have recently been following your Providence build as well as your discussion with @Imagna. She is on my short list for a scratch build so I have just begun my research.

 

I live a few miles north of Providence, RI and just today got into the Rhode Island Historical Society online services. The link below contains a 1943 Historical Society Publication regarding many interesting facts about the Providence. Too many for me to copy & paste here. It also includes some words about the several year interchange among Davis, Brownell, Wales and the RIHS article author.  My takeaway is that the Brownell model is based on a collaborative effort. I, as of yet, have not seen any plans... just getting going.

 

(edit: link dead this morning (3-24-21) I'll check on this.)

(edit: deleted link to follow RIHS copyright policy)

 

Click on Digital Version Available .

 

Please disregard if you have seen this already.

 

Mike

Edited March 24, 2021 by Mike_In_RI
note regarding dead link

[lmagna]

Hello Mike. 

Nice to see another person interested in this ship and the research that has occurred over the last 90+ years. I also read this and several other publications relating to both Davis's and Millar's research on the Providence and I think that not only is the design of the Davis/Brownell design more historically accurate but it is fairly obvious that they were the efforts of a group of researchers with the sole intent of creating nothing more than a historically accurate design while Millar was more interested and limited in design by the fact that he was trying to create a duplicate that still met modern day legal standards and was able to fulfill a commercial role. Not to say that the present day Providence is not only a handsome ship, but a functional one as well, just that in my opinion he Davis/Brownell collaboration is the more historically uncompromised, if that makes sense. I hope that with your physical location you are able to track down a set of the older plans and revive them from obscurity.

 

In the mean time we at least get to vicariously partake in a world class build from at least one set of the plans that are available. 

[KenW]

WOW.  Thanks a lot Mike.  I'll certainly read this source.  I'm fond of the Davis/Brownell models.  If I knew about them I'd have relied on these models rather than the plans for the replica.

If you're interested, our club has virtual meetings each month.  We get 'guests' from all over the US and now Canada.

Let me know if you want to attend a meeting so I can inform our president to let you into our Zoom setup.

Cheers.

[Mike_In_RI]

Hi Lou & Ken. I just noticed that RIHS link is dead. I'll check on that later today... maybe it's not "public" as I stated and log in credentials are needed. In any case, I'll join RIHS to support them as I dig into the the Katy. I'm also looking at the Charles Morgan for a scratch project as well.

 

Thank you for the quick response to my post.  If you don't mind, I'm sure I'll have some very basic questions for you both.

 

Mike

[bruce d]

2 hours ago, Mike_In_RI said:

... maybe it's not "public" as I stated and log in credentials are needed.

Hi Mike, I got a 'log-in-required' message when I tried it.

 

[Mike_In_RI]

1 hour ago, bruce d said:

Hi Mike, I got a 'log-in-required' message when I tried it.

Hi Bruce, I tried with no luck to recreate the clicks used to get to the RIHS page which linked to the source pdf . Oddly, I always test the links I post to verify they would work for other forum members, and it did last night, but not this morning. Possibly, when I shut down the PC last night, it lost the cookie.

 

In any case, I just joined the RIHS and got to the document. I found their copyright policy and a researcher is required to get permission to reproduce an image. I will go back and delete my original link.

 

..... OK, link deleted. Certainly, I will stick to their copyright policy. RIHS has a "permission application form", I'll check into how that works.

 

Mike

 

 

 

Edited March 24, 2021 by Mike_In_RI

[Mike_In_RI]

Good News, looks like there is at least some public access to the Rhode Island Historical Society site records. Be aware they have a copyright policy. This should lead to the document I mentioned....

 

RIHS Home Page   >> Research >> Publications >> Rhode Island History Journal .... search on George Miner (author) ... see Vol. 2, 1943

 

Mike

 

 

 

[KenW]

Thanks Mike.  I can read the document, but not obtain a copy.  Is there a way to purchase a copy?

Cheers.

[Mike_In_RI]

Hi Ken, looks to me that it's just a pdf file containing a digital image (~3.3 Mb). I just saved it as a pdf. I see this on the same "Publications" web page......

 

Quote

Rhode Island History can be received by purchasing a membership to the Rhode Island Historical Society which also includes a host of additional benefits. An annual subscription is also available for $25. Single issues may be purchased for $12.50 (price includes postage & handling).  To inquire about subscriptions or single issues, please contact Silvia Rees at (401) 331-8575 x 129 or email srees@rihs.org.

 

I'm going to dig a little into the reference of "The Rhode Island Sloop" for fun. The Brownell model is shown at the bottom of the image.

Mike

 

Edited March 24, 2021 by Mike_In_RI

[KenW]

Hey Mike.  A person at your Society, I believe it was Richard Ring, send me 6 photos of the brownell model that you have on display. 

It's a good model, but I wish I had the Davis plans it was based on.  Anyway, I am grateful for the photos.

Cheers.

[Mike_In_RI]

I'll have to check when the RIHS opens up. I have a couple of questions if you don't mind.

 

- Are the plans you have from the book the same as from the restoration project group? If so, is one more clear than the other?

- Are they by Charles Wittholz?

 

Thank you,

Mike

[lmagna]

Hi Ken

I think Mike is right. I down loaded this document a couple of years ago and have printed out a few of the 21 pages for my files a couple of times. I have never printed the complete document, but it is just a normal PDF scan of the original. Unless you have a full version of Adobe you can't convert it to a Word file or make alterations but I am pretty certain you don't want that anyway.

 

Like you I am hoping that at some point the plans produced by Davis/Brownell/Walsh. According to the 1943 RIHS article there was a set at the time of the article located in the John Brown House at the time of the article. 

 

"Those who find pleasure in the lines and model of a vessel will enjoy the plan and the photographs of the Katy as reconstructed and carefully prepared by ardent students of maritime history ; these plans may be seen at the john Brown House." 

 

If this is still the case then possibly our search will be over and copies can be obtained. If not then possibly someone there can steer us in the proper direction. One avenue I tried some time ago was the Mystic Seaport Museum where the Davis Papers are stored. Their reply was not only a long time in coming but was very curt in only saying they had nothing in their catalogue referring to the Katy or the Providence. 

 

 

[KenW]

Mike:  The Charles Wittholz plans are the plans for the replica.  I got a copy from the guy that was in charge of the restoration after the original boat was blown over during a winter storm.

Lou:  Depending on the status of the virus, I'll be going to Mystic in October.  I usually go a day early so I can spend some time at the seaport.

That's the best I can do right now.

Cheers.

[lmagna]

Mystic is just a possibility Ken. No guarantee that anything is there. I think that when I was doing my research a couple of years ago they listed their Davis papers as four or five boxes. I was unable to determine if they have gone through those boxes or not. The may not let another person do it either. But if it comes to it let me know in case there is a financial burden in looking for or obtaining the plans and I will contribute my share as well.

 

When I kind of gave up due to my being here on the left coast instead of the east colonial states and only being able to contact a few people with great difficulty like Millar, i had come to the conclusion that the more likely location for the plans would be in the John Brown House and possibly other locations in the RI area where there would be much more interest in preserving something like that. I even suspected that Millar may have seen them just as I am certain that he knew of them, but he was really only interested in telling his story of the present day Providence and his involvement so I considered that a dead end as well.

 

Whittholz may have also seen or had the plans as well and used them as a starting point or reference for the present day Providence as there is really not all that much difference in the Davis/Brownell models and the present day ship but as he is dead that may be impossible to track as well.

Another possible source of information I have considered but not really followed up on is works done by artist and maritime historian Hewitt R. Jackson for the book Log Of The Union John Boit's Remarkable Voyage. This is a very unusual book as it is both written as a historical document by John Boit in 1794-96 and edited by Edmond Hayes in 1981. On page 127 at the back of the book, Jackson writes several pages of information and provides sources and a copy of page 5 of the plans he developed for the Union, a sloop almost certainly similar in both size and design to the Providence. He also considers the drawing of the Lady Washington by Robert Haswell to be a sloop of the same if not identical type. He goes to some length to to give credit to Davis's plans of the Providence as being a great influence on his plans as presented throughout the book, and one look at the plans and the Brownell/Davis models and it is plain that they are indeed related.

 

While not strictly a reference book on the Providence, I would consider this book a primary research book for anyone interested in the Providence, Lady Washington, Experiment, and of course the Union or any other Hudson Bay Packet or sloop of the late 1700s in the same way that we are discussing in this build.

 

I was disappointed to discover that while Jackson lived in Kirkland Washington only fifteen minutes from where I live, he died in 2007. I have yet to locate where or how to contact Edmond Hayes.

Edited March 25, 2021 by lmagna

[KenW]

Lou:  Well, if I do get to Mystic, I'll give it a try.

Thanks.

[Mike_In_RI]

Lou, Ken

Quote

Mystic is just a possibility Ken. No guarantee that anything is there. I think that when I was doing my research a couple of years ago they listed their Davis papers as four or five boxes.

 

Mystic has online listings now of a lot of their collection, including their Davis's manuscripts. The listing looks promising. i.e “Sailing Ships of the American Navy; 1776-1850” packet ships, Hudson bay, models, etc ..... Per their site their access policy, notwithstanding covid, seems to be "Available for use in the manuscripts division". My wife and I are members and we are going there soon to check out the Charles Morgan/books/plans. We go there multiple times in a year. It should be easy enough to find out about actual access to the manuscripts division... I'll bring my cotton gloves just in case. 

 

 Davis Collection at Mystic 

 

Mike

[KenW]

Great Mike.  It looks like you will probably be interested in Box 7.

Just a guess though.

Let me know how you make out.

[lmagna]

WOW their list has expanded considerably since I contacted them a few years ago. Box 7 either didn't exist or was not even identified! While I agree with Ken on box 7, there is still a possibility that there is additional research, letters between Brownell, Walsh, and Davis and research on Hudson Sloops or Rhode Island Sloops in the other boxes.

 

I hope they are more accommodating in person than they were in emails. Are you sure you don't need to make an appointment?

Edited March 26, 2021 by lmagna

[Mike_In_RI]

Quote

I hope they are more accommodating in person than they were in emails. Are you sure you don't need to make an appointment?

 

The research collections building is closed to the public right now. Looks like email is the only way to communicate right now 😬. Ordinarily, it is open but I have never visited that building. The Seaport area will be partially open, limited by both covid and their seasonal hours. I'm expecting appointments will be needed. Or some limitation on the number of people.

 

We will be going there tomorrow to skim the bookstore and walk around some of the open exhibits inside the Seaport. I'm hoping to get to talk to someone at their new visitor center that can give a little incite as to how they might operate the research building as covid winds down.

 

Fingers crossed,

Mike

 

 

[Mike_In_RI]

Quote

I can read the document, but not obtain a copy. 

Ken, I meant to mention I can print from the pdf. I use the free version of Foxit Reader (v10). It looks like there are 21 images (double pages) in the pdf. I tested one double page on my printer setting "grey scale" to avoid using color ink. It printed OK albeit faded like the original. The text in the image can be highlighted with Foxit.

 

Thank you for the Richard Ring tip.

 

Mike

[KenW]

Thanks Mike.  I got it.

 

[Mike_In_RI]

'Just ordered Ships of the Past by Davis, Marine Research Society Publication #19, First Publish date 1929. I ordered the paperback, it's probably the 1977 version. Hoping to see something like the Katy. Maybe plans(!!!) Should be fun reading anyway.

 

.... off to Mystic.

[KenW]

Enjoy your trip

 

[KenW]

Well, the hull isn’t really done at all.  I decided that the binnacle was too big.  So, I removed it and made a smaller one.  I saved the lantern and hung it behind the stairs to the quarter deck.  And I felt I wouldn’t be able to make a new one small enough.  So I decided that the lantern was removed from the binnacle to refill it with oil.  I also added two doors to reduce the light put off by the lantern and even left one door ajar. The launch party will have to wait.

 

I also added supports for the swivels.  You can almost see the lantern hanging behind those stairs.

   

I still have to make oars and sweeps, as well as the “crane rails on the quarters” to store the oars.

 

[Mike_In_RI]

Fantastic. Great shot from the stem looking back and well done on the cap rail scroll work.

 

Mike

[lmagna]

Fantastic progress Ken. I especially like the "down the deck" eye level shots. Makes me feel like I am really there and it is no longer a model.

[TomShipModel]

Ken,

 

Congratulations on an excellent model.  Great job!  Wish to see it in person very soon.

[KenW]

Thanks Mike, Lou and Tom.  I got the idea of the photos from Chuck's log of his Winchelsea model.

Tom:  I'm hoping to show my model at a live club meeting soon, and see your Liverpool live as well.

Stay safe everyone.

Cheers.

Edited April 13, 2021 by KenW

[KenW]

I made the oars for the sweeps and the ship’s boat.  I’m planning on four a side for the sweeps, which is one sweep between each gun.  These oars are very big and will require two crewmen to man them.  There are four smaller oars for the boat.  The big oars were made in two pieces; and the smaller ones from one piece.  I’m not drilling the sweep holes yet because I want to make sure the oars will not interfere with the shrouds.  I will make the iron cranes at the quarters next.

 

[FriedClams]

Excellent progress Ken!  I agree with the others on the appeal of the low angle photos.  Nice uniform oars as well.

 

Gary