HMS Speedy by Delf - FINISHED - Vanguard Models - Scale 1:64 - Master Shipwright edition

[DelF]

23 hours ago, Blue Ensign said:

Just checking Derek, is the vertical planking on the transom correct?

I've not seen that configuration before, if you visualise the real thing, the stern frames are vertical, the planking is usually horizontal.

I've had a word with Chris, and he decided to go with vertical planking on Speedy based on his research which found many contemporary model pictures showing similar sized and period models with the stern planking running vertically, not horizontal or angled. Looking at my copy of the AOTS book on Alert I noticed that the transom had horizontal beams as well as vertical frames. The Alert book showed the transom planked horizontally, but depending on how the beams tied into the frames I imagine vertical planks would be just as possible as horizontal. I'm going to leave the planks as they are, mainly because of Chris's research, but also I quite like the alternating pattern of vertical-horizontal-vertical. 

 

Thanks again for raising. 

 

Derek

[Glenn-UK]

I will follow your log. I have just ordered the HMS Speedy Kit and look forward to starting work on it when it arrives. I have created a build log and I'm also planning of posting some videos of the build. I am interested to know if the false keel (Part 1) needs sanding and the aft so the overall thickness after planking matches the rudder thickness as I have not seen any mention of this?

 

[DelF]

Hi

 

Great to hear you’re joining the ‘Speedy Club’. 

 

Chris covers your question in the instruction manual. Once you have completed the first layer of hull planking and are sanding it smooth, you should aim to reduce the overall thickness at the stern to 1.5mm. When the second planking is added that will match the width to that of the sternpost and rudder. The photos in the manual show this quite well. 
 

I’m working on the second planking just now and taking it slowly to get it as neat as possible, so there’s not much to put in the log. I may start doing some sub-assemblies for variety. 
 

Good luck with your build - I’d certainly be interested to see the videos you’re planning. 
 

Derek

[Glenn-UK]

Hello Derek
Many thanks, when looking at some of Chris's photos included in the online manual extract it did look like the false keel had been sanded prior to the first planking. I will have a look once the kit arrives.

 

I have been looking at Chuck's sideway plank bending. It looks interesting and is something I will experiment with when I start my planking.

 

 

[DelF]

I'd certainly recommend Chuck's edge bending method. I've seen him use a hot air gun and a small travel iron. I've tried both, and both work, but I find the iron works faster and, as it literally irons the wood flat, it reduces any tendency for the strip to bend in a direction you don't want.

 

Derek

[Glenn-UK]

Are you using Chuck's planking method for both the 1st and 2nd planking or just the 2nd planking?

 

I have never tried Chuck's method before but will be using it on Speedy. I plan to use some spare planking material before I start actual planking with the kit supplied material to get an idea of how the method works in practice.

[DelF]

I’m just using it on the second planking. You can get away with more on the first planking as it won’t show. Of course, for the same reason, the  first planking would be a safe place to practice edge bending. 
 

Derek

[VTHokiEE]

On 2/7/2020 at 12:50 PM, DelF said:

I'd certainly recommend Chuck's edge bending method. I've seen him use a hot air gun and a small travel iron. I've tried both, and both work, but I find the iron works faster and, as it literally irons the wood flat, it reduces any tendency for the strip to bend in a direction you don't want.

 

Derek

I’ve started using an iron on the first planking of my alert and I think it’s great so far. I haven’t used a hot air gun but a cheap travel iron is working great for me. I can’t wait to see your second planking pictures.

[DelF]

After a break during which I've spent more time on my pinnace build, I've completed a bit more of the second planking. I apologise for the quality of these pictures - I'm not the world's greatest photographer. Apart from anything else, the pictures tend to make the planking look worse than it actually is (honest!😀), especially in the bow area. In reality each strake is lying flat against the hull and tight against its neighbours. The top two strakes are a bit gappy but that doesn't matter as they'll be covered by additional wale planks. 

 

The lighting tends to highlight the bumps and dips, but these should sand out. As you can see, the second planking will require a fair degree of sanding in any case, to remove the saw marks that are prominent on several planks - my only slight criticism of the kit materials.

 

Overall the edge bending technique is working well. As for tapering, I decided not to rely on eyeballing. Instead, I measured the distance from the underside of the first two (wale) planks to the keel at various points on the hull and divided by the number of planks needed at midships. As the hull is fairly regular this distance was the same for several frames fore and aft of midships - as you might expect, tapering was only required for a short distance in the bows and stern. The measurements in these areas gave me the width of planks at various points and hence the tapering required. Chuck explains this much better than me in various tutorials on MSW, including in the articles database. Here's what a plank looks like after tapering and edge bending. The little Veritas plane also makes chamfering the edge of the plank easy (before bending), helping planks sit snuggly together on curved areas of the hull.

 

In the end I decided to go with medium gel CA for the second planking. A bit scary, but I've found if I'm careful and just apply the glue a couple of inches at a time, I can get good adhesion without getting the stuff all over the front surface of the planks. 

 

I'm approaching the point where the remaining strakes will be covered by copper sheathing, at which stage I should be able to proceed more quickly. Looking ahead to that stage, it's just struck me how much the waterline diverges from the line of the keel.

 

This close-up of the hull from the manual shows just how non-parallel the waterline and the keel are. I'm sure there's a proper nautical term for this, but the result is that there's much more copper in the stern than the bows. Marking the waterline will be an interesting exercise.

 

Onwards and upwards.

 

Derek

[Glenn-UK]

Looking good. I've just started the 1st planking on my build so it is good to have other builds to look at.

[DelF]

3 hours ago, glennard2523 said:

I've just started the 1st planking on my build

Good luck...a good opportunity to practice edge bending. On second planking, I think I've discovered why some of my planks are a bit 'bumpy ' - I'd not been careful enough in cleaning off excess CA and I think blobs must have hardened along the edges of some strakes. When dry they're hard to see, but it's such an obvious mistake I could kick myself, especially as I know it's one I've taken care to avoid in the past. Must be an age thing!  I'm sure it'll all sand out. 

 

Derek

[ccoyle]

4 hours ago, DelF said:

I'm sure there's a proper nautical term for this

Yep, it's called drag.

[glbarlow]

On 1/19/2020 at 5:48 AM, DelF said:

The planking begins!

The 1st planking requires exactly 30 full strips, and the kit supplies exactly thirty. Unfortunately I'd snapped one strip in an early and unnecessary edge-bending experiment. However this wasn't a problem, as I was able to complete the last garboard strake with two shorter planks.

 

How did you determine the taper width on the stern? Until I saw your complete sequence of planking, from the first one I would have guessed the stern didn't need that much taper, but clearly it did.  I'm starting my Speedy soon so enjoying the learning from your build.

Edited February 21, 2020 by glbarlow

[glbarlow]

On 1/25/2020 at 5:23 AM, DelF said:

 

I'm still not sure about gluing. Chris recommends  medium to thick CA for all second planking, including the edges. It clearly works for Chris, but I'm not sure I trust myself to keep the stuff off the front faces of the planks (and my fingers!). I used my normal wood glue for the first two lengths, and I'll ponder a bit - and do some testing - before deciding what to use for the rest of the planking.

 

I'm in the CA group for 2nd planking, I just don't have the patience for PVA glue at this stage and don't want pin holes and I can do it fairly neatly. Using Chuck's plank bending with my travel iron gets the right shape without soaking and keeps the planks from warping and thus easy to glue on using CA.  But there are as many techniques and choices as there are modelers so...

 

My kit is pear wood (which is a HUGE improvement over walnut), but wishing I had the boxwood option.  It will be a shame to copper over that beautiful wood.

Edited February 21, 2020 by glbarlow

[glbarlow]

My first model is 15 years old now, doesn't show any aging problems with CA, guess I'll check in another 15 to se how its doing.  I'm able to wipe off and if not then sand any spillage (as long as its minor) without problem.

[glbarlow]

Sorry, I've got to stop quoting - I'm posting replies several days after the original and MSW puts replies at the end but my adding the quotes is just making your log double long with the repeated photos - my bad.

[DelF]

Thanks - glad it's helping you. With the first planking I simply eyeballed the taper. Chris explains his method in the build manual, but basically you lay a plank against the preceding one and let it go where it wants, than mark it where it starts to overlap the previous plank. Just give it a reasonable amount of taper from that point to the end - but reduce it by no more than half it's width. The stern is a bit tricky because after the initial few tapered planks that follow the tight curve of the hull, the planks need to get wider again - eventually you need to use triangular stealers to fill the gaps. Hopefully this is clear from the photos. I'm sure you know triangular stealers are not good practice where the planks show, but they're fine in Speedy where they will eventually be covered by copper.

 

Speaking of good practice, when you're quoting someone else you don't need to copy the whole post - it's just as easy to highlight the bit you want and hit the 'quote selection' prompt that comes up, and it makes it easier for others reading the log. Ccoyle's post immediately before yours is a good example. Hope you don't mind me mentioning this, but I used to do the same until someone else  pointed out the neater method.

 

I look forward to seeing your log.

 

Derek

 

P.S. Just noticed that you and I have the exact same number of posts to our name. Spooky!

[DelF]

Our posts crossed in the post, as it were! And you've now got more than me.

[glbarlow]

11 minutes ago, DelF said:

Speaking of good practice, when you're quoting someone else you don't need to copy the whole post - it's just as easy to highlight the bit you want and hit the 'quote selection' prompt that comes up, and it makes it easier for others reading the log. Ccoyle's post immediately before yours is a good example. Hope you don't mind me mentioning this, but I used to do the same until someone else  pointed out the neater method.

 

Not at all, I just posted in the Admin section asking how to do this - it was annoying me and I'm the one doing it. So thanks.

[DelF]

1 hour ago, ccoyle said:

Yep, it's called drag.

Thanks, that makes sense.  I wonder though, if drag is a particularly American, or relatively modern term? I ask because I can't find it in my dictionary of nautical terms, but that was compiled by the British Admiral Smyth and he died in 1865.

 

Also, I wonder why some ships were designed that way - what are the advantages (and disadvantages) of sitting deeper at the stern? Was the position ever reversed, with ships designed to float deeper at the bows?

 

Derek

 

 

[glbarlow]

 

P.S. Just noticed that you and I have the exact same number of posts to our name. Spooky!

I used to have a lot more - I did a very long and detailed logs of my Pegasus and Fair American builds that were lost in the big systems crash a few years ago.  I was not happy, mostly at myself for not keeping an offline copies. I quit building after the Vanguard and disappeared from the forums for a long while, just starting back up again. 

[DelF]

30 minutes ago, glbarlow said:

 It will be a shame to copper over that beautiful wood.

Take a look at Vane's Speedy log (here). He cleverly saved quite a few strips of boxwood by using a cheaper alternative where it won't show. Well done on the quoting by the way - you picked that up quick!

 

Derek

[glbarlow]

Actually after the Vanguard I'm never coppering another ship, with all due respect to historical accuracy 😄

[ccoyle]

7 minutes ago, glbarlow said:

I was not happy

None of us were! Hard to believe that was seven years ago now. As to the question about drag, I don't know the answer, but I bet that Chappelle discussed it in either Baltimore Clippers or Search for Speed Under Sail.

[DelF]

4 minutes ago, glbarlow said:

I did a very long and detailed logs of my Pegasus and Fair American builds that were lost in the big systems crash a few years ago.  I was not happy, mostly at myself for not keeping an offline copies.

Wow, that must have been devastating. I'm enjoying modelling so much more now that I'm active on MSW and writing my own logs. I'll certainly learn from your experience and keep offline copies from now on.

I'm off to help my wife prepare dinner (steak and fries with a nice red!) so I'll sign off for now.

 

Derek

[glbarlow]

 

2 minutes ago, ccoyle said:

that was seven years ago

Seems less than that to me since I was "gone" for the past three years.  I did note I was mostly unhappy with myself for not keeping an offline copy, a mistake I won't make again.

[Glenn-UK]

In reply to the question "How did you determine the taper width on the stern" I used carboard strips and got the following measurements from bow to stern

Bulkhead position 1 = 35mm

Bulkhead position 2 = 55mm

Bulkhead position 3 = 65mm

Bulkhead position 4 = 70mm

Bulkhead position 5 = 78mm

Bulkhead position 6 = 80mm

Bulkhead position 7 = 80mm

Bulkhead position 8 = 80mm

Bulkhead position 9 = 80mm

Bulkhead position 10 = 80mm

Bulkhead position 11 = 80mm

Bulkhead position 12 = 80mm

Bulkhead position 13 = 80mm

Bulkhead position 14 = 45mm

Bulkhead position 15 =38mm

 

I believe there will be 16 x 5mm planks required for the 80mm dimensions, however this will be reduced to 15 planks towards the stern.

I fitted the first plank as a complete untapered plank and then tapered for the second plank but I only tapered at the bow end based on the above measurements using approx. 2.2mm as the stem post plank width. I also fitted the bottom two (keel) planks and I think I will continue to plank in both directions.

Edited February 21, 2020 by glennard2523

[DelF]

On 2/21/2020 at 5:29 PM, glbarlow said:

Actually after the Vanguard I'm never coppering another ship,

Hi

 

I've never coppered a ship before, so I was wondering what put you off - the trickiness of applying the copper, the appearance, or perhaps a preference for natural wood?

 

Derek 

[glbarlow]

2 hours ago, DelF said:

I was wondering what put you off 

 

Derek 

First off I don't like the end appearance, my personal preference.  Historical accuracy aside the copper draws my attention way too much over the beauty of the model, its lines and all the detail I put into it from furniture to rigging are muffled by the copper hull. It is what you notice first and, again in my opinion, not what I want to see. The white hull just looks so much more like an elegant model sitting on my shelf.  I'm not sailing it anywhere, its one aspect of historical accuracy I don't feel I need to have done the job right.  

 

However in the case of the Vanguard (I also coppered my Pickle) it was the incredible tediousness of placing one plate after another after another in one line after another after another.  I actually stopped for almost a year after coppering the port side before starting starboard. I just lost interest in modeling and did I mention how tedious it is on a large ship. I won't be coppering Speedy, I hope it to join Pegasus and Granado in my study bookshelves, with its white hull.

 

Hope that helps.

[dzerbato]

I haven't considered not coppering it, but you raise some fair points. I guess I'll have to see if I'm up to it, but at least it's a relatively small model compared to the Vanguard.