Gretel - how to furl sails

[ajromano]

Is this close to how a real boat would be rigged? Looks like mainsail would be furled to mast......?.??

[Bob Cleek]

Different boats, different rigs. That's an odd one for her size. A lot of strings to pull for such a small boat. It would be interesting to know more about what type of vessel it is. It's not quite clear from the photo exactly what is going on. Apparently, the boat is rigged so that all sails can be handled from the cockpit, more or less. There appear to be brails on the main and the headsails.

 

It appears that the mainsail is designed to be brailed and the gaff left hoisted, something like the Thames barges were rigged.

 

 

 

It's a small boat and doesn't appear to have any shrouds at all, but with so little sail area, she wouldn't need them if she carried a solid mast. What is unusual is that her gaff jaws ride above what would be the hounds if she had shrouds. In this case, the jaws are above the mast bands and the topmast doubling. The jaws would chafe something fierce on the doubling, I'd expect. I also note that there is no throat halyard tackle shown in the picture. I wonder how one gets up there to bend the sail onto the gaff boom, or lace the luff. Unless this is only a partial drawing, or there is some other explanation, I'd say there's something wrong with the picture. 

 

Was this drawing from the instructions in some kit? Was it a Chinese kit?  

 

I'd like to know what others think. Can you tell us more about the documentation you've got there?

[ajromano]

I think it is just a inaccurate kit. I will post more details later.

 

Thanks, I reached same conclusion or question. How to reach upper mast to secure sail. 
 

Also I do not know all the proper terms! More reading in order 😉

[ajromano]

[ajromano]

[ajromano]

Seems to be close to what is called a naval sloop or Bermuda Sloop.

 

I am getting way this would work in real life.

 

Blocks attached to little brass “I bolts” seems wrong! 

 

This is worse than model trains! 

[mtaylor]

Blocks could be attached to eyebolts or rigged to the masts/yards using rope.

[ajromano]

On the hull?

[mtaylor]

Yes, drill a small hole and put the eyebolt into it.  I use CA glue to hold it place, others use epoxy.  

[ajromano]

Thanks. I assumed it was totally inaccurate. Small boat!

 

Real boats use I-bolts?

Edited February 28, 2020 by ajromano

[ajromano]

This is actually a nice looking little boat, I have been almost fanatical about quality. Still missed a bit on planking, but it looks fine! Only I will notice flaws.

[Gregory]

7 hours ago, ajromano said:

This is actually a nice looking little boat,

The plans are based on a Chapman drawing of a dutch pleasure yacht..  I'll post a picture later..

 

Something to be aware of in that new Dusek version of the kit.   The base for the cabin roof is too small.  You will need to make a new one based on the plans..

 

Edited February 28, 2020 by Gregory

[Bob Cleek]

The rig in the later drawing above is more detailed. I see there is a shroud and a running backstay and the throat halyard tackle is pictured. As a period yacht, it is what we modernly call a "character boat." It's a reduced-scale pleasure boat version of a larger vessel, something for people who want to make believe they are sailing a bigger boat. In and of itself, a square topsail on a boat of that size wouldn't be all that practical and inefficient. It would reqiure to much work to set and manage in return for the motive power it provides. On the other hand, character boats can be a lot of fun and that's the whole point of a yacht.

 

I didn't check Chapman to see what the source plans were, but I suspect that Chapman may only have provided the hull, but not the rig, which was a later interpretation of the kit designer.

[amateur]

Chapmans rigs for the small vessels are not always correct (too much sail)

the square topsail looks too heavily rigged: normal Dutch habit (even on the larger yachts), was to have the topsail 'flying' without lifts on the yards, and without clewlines). I don't think gretel was a Dutch yacht: there are no leeboards.

Compared to the ships inthis drawing, the square sail is too heavily rigged, and the gaf is set too high: as the stay is around the mast, the gaff should not be higher than the eye of the stay.

apart from that, I should say that the rig is fairly standard for the time and the region.

 

Jan

 

 

[Gregory]

Here are the Chapman Drawings

 

The description is Pleasure boat or Yacht.  No mention of Dutch, so that was my mistake. 

[Bob Cleek]

I quite agree with your assessment that the sail plan looks oversized. That said, note that Chapman shows two, or perhaps three, shrouds, no running backstays, and places the gaff jaws properly below the hounds. The model plans are clearly in error and not an accurate portrayal of Chapman's drawings. This kit is going to take some research and substantial "bashing" to get it corrected. Par for the course with a lot of kits, but, IMHO, these are pretty glaring discrepancies.

Edited February 28, 2020 by Bob Cleek

[amateur]

The sailplan shown in the previous post is already an interpretation of the rig shown by Chapman. I checked my edition, and rhis is all there is regarding the sailplan/rig

 

[Gregory]

The interpretation appears to be logical in some respects, like the braces and vang.  The topmast doesn't look right. 

But there are others who know far more than me.

[ajromano]

5 hours ago, amateur said:

The sailplan shown in the previous post is already an interpretation of the rig shown by Chapman. I checked my edition, and rhis is all there is regarding the sailplan/rig

 

This looks pretty much like the kit.

[ajromano]

This is basically a training kit. If I wanted truly accurate I would scratch build or get more accurate kit. (Assuming there is such a thing) This kit was on sale and had additional discount applied. Wood ships and boats are such fun to build! Very challenging.

 

Never rigged anything before, I have built several small boats and have current build of brig going.

 

Model Shipways seems to actually be a tad better, especially if one paints ship.

Edited February 29, 2020 by ajromano

[ajromano]

Thanks all for feedback!

[ajromano]

Modified a bit. Some of the kit plan did not seem realistic and some did not fit properly.

[mtaylor]

Tony,

I suggest you start a build log in the kit area.  It's a great way to get help and also it becomes a source other might build this model.

[Bob Cleek]

Properly rigging this model is not a big deal. All it takes is a bit of research. The rig is pretty much generic. A build log would be a good way to get lots of input on correcting the rig errors. My concern would be that following the kit rigging plan will be frustrating because the inaccuracies will likely make it difficult to rig in the first place.

[ajromano]

Plans are not much! 
 

Build log coming.

 

Should one use bees wax when rigging?

[mtaylor]

5 hours ago, ajromano said:

Should one use bees wax when rigging?

For the rigging?   It's your choice.  Some do, some don't.   Some use white glue and water.  Others use nothing.  I tend to do a mix....  bees wax on long cordage and for small stuff.... the glue and water mixture.  As they say, "your mileage may vary.".  

 

Best way is as always.. test first.  If no bees wax at hand, find a soft candle for testing to get an idea.  

[GrandpaPhil]

I got my brick of beeswax at the hardware store.