HMS Terror by clearway - FINISHED - OcCre - 1:75 - upgraded

[Keith S]

Sorry Keith I'm not sure what you mean by a "square in a square".. could you copy the picture and circle the item?

 

I did see the binnacle post. I am still thinking about it: Matthew Betts' book I believe has some info on compass placements, (you can already find bits of the book in a google search) but since I haven't received my copy yet I want to think about what he means in that paragraph, and see if he included any diagrams to explain it. I don't think the classic "binnacle" had been invented yet in 1845: on older ships you see the wooden box with a lantern inside, ...yeah you know, I have no idea what to think. I have trouble picturing one of those nice pillar-mounted ones on Terror. She seems just a bit primitive for that. In the book describing the compasses carried by Ross on the "Alexander", it seems like he was using the azimuth compass almost in a pelorus-like capacity and the ship was steered at high latitudes maintaining constant bearing off the sun, with the helmsman watching the shadow cast by the azimuth compass' bearing sights.

 

I feel like I need to think more about it. Can you go through Matthew's book and find the paragraph where he talks about compasses? I tried using "Google" again but since I'm finally no longer trapped in an airport I can't seem to remember what online rabbit-hole I ran down to find it the first time. There might be a clue there. 

 

P.S. Just got a notice that my copy of THE BOOK is on its way.

[DanielD]

56 minutes ago, Keith S said:

I feel like I need to think more about it. Can you go through Matthew's book and find the paragraph where he talks about compasses? I tried using "Google" again but since I'm finally no longer trapped in an airport I can't seem to remember what online rabbit-hole I ran down to find it the first time. There might be a clue there. 

 

P.S. Just got a notice that my copy of THE BOOK is on its way.

Keith, here is the page in question.

this is a quote from the book HMS Terror: The design, fitting and voyages of the polar discovery ship, by Dr. Matthew Betts, page 101-102

 

”As was common in many polar expeditions, Terror appears to have shipped two binnacle compasses, one each on the port and starboard, a prudent option in higher latitudes with variable magnetism.15 The 1839 Terror and Erebus upper deck plans show the probable location of these on the quarterdeck, as indicated by gaps in the row of casks lining both sides of the bulwarks. Once the compasses became unreliable at higher latitudes as the magnetic poles drew nearer, these would have been removed. Parry provides a good description of the likely procedure employed: ‘the binnacles were removed, as useless lumber, from the deck to the carpenter’s store-room, where they remained during the rest of the season, the azimuth compass alone being kept on deck.’16 So important were the azimuth compasses for Arctic exploration that five were provided for the 1836 Terror expedition, including two Gilbert and two Kater compasses, and well as an Alexander steering azimuth compass.17 All these models of azimuth compass had been used on previous polar expeditions, and the procedures for using them in high latitudes were well established. Remarkably, the 1839 Terror and Erebus upper deck plan shows that a special charting table was bolted on the quarterdeck and that the azimuth compass was mounted in its centre.18 It is likely that Alexander’s azimuth steering compass was mounted here when in high latitudes, as Ross had experience with this model and its significant advantages from his polar expeditions with his uncle, Sir John Ross.”

 

Edited August 24, 2022 by DanielD

[clearway]

pssst Daniel i am not sure if you are breaking copyright there , maybe delete the script and just describe in your own words about compass. However that would mean i was right with first set up regards box on a table, you can go bonkers trying to figure this out!!!!!!

 

Keith here is a crop of the Erebus wreck diagram

 

the square is behind the hatch and below the tiller (could just be other wreckage though).

 

Keith

[Keith S]

I can hardly wait to get my copy!!

 

OK Keith, I see what you mean now. I didn't realize you were talking about "Erebus". I see it! It looks like...looks...(sharp intake of breath).. like a FITTING of some kind!

 

Here's yet another thing about "Terror" that is mysterious: the cannon. Daniel has included the cannons on his model. You and I have not, although I have put the eye-rings in the bulwark for breech lines and outhaul tackle. The mystery is the cannon being where it is in the first place. I would have imagined when the cannon were not in use, they would have been stowed below. So clearly when she sank, a cannon was on deck. Why? Is there a carriage there too, under the silt? Did they have it set up in the vain hope it could be used to signal a passing vessel or search party? Were the Inuit somewhat less peaceable than they would have us believe?

 

I wonder the same thing about the boat sitting by the port quarter. Did she fall from the davits, or was she tied to the ship when both were afloat? Based on the location, I'm guessing davits. When most of the boats were used on sledges for the attempt to walk out, does this mean this one was rowed back out to the ship for boarding? Or did they just leave her behind? 

 

Why is the rudder lashed to the side? Is the spare one still in its place in the engine-room? The little hatch abaft the main fife-rail is in just the right place for the spare rudder to drop down into its spot in the engine-room. So, if it's still there, then the one lashed to the side must be the main rudder, which means the ship was at least partially rigged for winter quarters. Maybe the flying-bridge would have been dismantled and stowed, or scavenged, by this time. 

 

At least part of the problem is Parks Canada. They are slow to release information, and when they do it's always dumbed-down for public sound-bites and consists mostly of scenes of people roaring around in rubber boats, talking to each other, and examining fronds of seaweed. The Canadians are down there right now, but not a peep in the media! They are driving me nuts!

 

 

Edited August 24, 2022 by Keith S

[DanielD]

Just some more historical information that is mentioned by Dr. Bets in the pages above.

 

Gilbert "sundial" azimuth compass, made by Gilbert & Sons London.

Edited August 24, 2022 by DanielD

[clearway]

1 minute ago, Keith S said:

I can hardly wait to get my copy!!

it is nice m8y (watch out i put the chart cupboard handle on the wrong side😬). I havnt read it yet just perused the plans to figure out those bridge supports....are you still stuck in that airport?!?

 

Keith

[DanielD]

Here is a "prototype" Kater azimuth compass, c 1811, designed by Henry Kater, which incorporates a mirror that allows the reading of scales at the same time as observation of a distant object through the sight.

 

[clearway]

Have also seen them look like this, problem with deciding on the compass is our victorian friends invented/ improved designs at a very impressive pace.

 

Keith

[Keith Black]

A binnacle is merely the housing for the compass. They wanted to get away from the cabinet type housing because of the deviations caused by the nails that held the cabinets together. One would think that a date for when the first column type binnacle was developed would be readily available but Mr Google is playing hide and seek with it. 

Edited August 25, 2022 by Keith Black

[DanielD]

An Alexander steering azimuth compass, designed by Baharie Alexander in 1844. Image below is as close as I could find, may not be an Alexander design, but his would have been very similar, c 1844-1845, which would have been the "latest and greatest" design to have on board.

 

Edited August 24, 2022 by DanielD

[clearway]

that is about the size of the one i was depicting in its box, now thinking hmmmm lets have the lid open and a bit of detail added! As it stands i have not fastened the post in place or cut a hole in my table yet😁 as i cannot 100% make my mind up!!!!!!!

 

Keith

[Keith Black]

1 hour ago, DanielD said:

”As was common in many polar expeditions, Terror appears to have shipped two binnacle compasses, one each on the port and starboard, a prudent option in higher latitudes with variable magnetism"

 I'm confused as to the direction you're headed and the reasoning behind it, Keith? Or am I missing something? 

[clearway]

your not the only one Keith B! still swinging between the azimuth compass on the table or the pillar? Craigs argument does make sense, but so does Matthew Betts. I am now wondering if the pillar was actually two, one  for the port and one for starboard steering compasses which could be observed from the bridge hence why on posts? The other thing on my mind is that is a long unsupported 12" pillar (except for the table). Will stick with the bridge but might revert back to my original idea and place the azimuth compass on the navigation table which was my inkling from day one?!?!

 

This ship is going to drive Keith S and myself completely nuts😵

 

Keith

[Keith S]

I am also unsure what to do. Our Australian friend Craig makes a great, logical case for the raised pillar. Matthew Betts seems to believe the compass was in a box bolted to the table. We are all looking at the same five or six ancient shipyard drawings. Because it's fun (and no Keith I finally got home last night) I will make a list of pros and cons for the "pillar mount" idea, as I see it. 

 

In favour:

1) the 1939 side-view depicts a relatively ornate vertical post in that location, sitting in a shoe-like deck receptacle or fitting. 

2) none of the top-views depict a third skid-beam in that location

3) the most recent of the top-views does depict something square on the table. 

4) John Ross, in his account of trying to devise a method to determine the accuracy of his steering-compasses, writes of having an azimuth compass sitting "on a plank seven feet above deck height, just forward of the mizzen" 

5) Erebus wreck survey seems to depict something square standing on deck where the table used to be: could this be the mounting "shoe" for the hypothetical post? 

 

Not in favour:

1) Not mentioned in "The Book" by Dr. Betts

2) So far, not been able to find any pictures of a similar thing on other ships (this doesn't mean much if anything to me) 

3) If we're wrong about it, our models will look weird with a post through the table for no reason

4) why wouldn't it just be up on the flying bridge? 

 

So, here's the thing: The old diagrams could have omitted a third boat-support beam. But if they did, why is the pillar in the side-view so much more ornate/detailed than the other ones? The only theory that has evidence that can be found in both the side and the top views is the "compass pillar" one. The "boat support" theory only has evidence in the side-view. In other words, if you believe there was a post there, there are TWO drawings that supports that theory. If you believe the post in the side-view is one of a pair that supported a middle skid-beam, there is only ONE drawing that supports that theory. If you believe there was NOTHING there, there is only ONE drawing that supports that theory, but two that directly contradict it. Therefore, in my mind, the balance of probability lies with there being a post there for some reason. 

 

Maybe someday, information from surveys of the wrecks will show us what we want to know. I have an idea: maybe a good compromise would be to put a mounting "shoe" on the deck under the table. Then, put a flat square on the table. Let the square represent a cover over the square hole that may or may not be there. The mount on the deck won't be too visible. In the future, if someone asks "what is that square"? You can say "Oh that's where the azimuth compass goes". Either way, you're not lying. If instead, someone in the future says "how come you didn't include the post for the azimuth compass"? You can say "Oh that post was removable when not in use. Look! There is the deck mount and there is the cover over the hole in the table". You win either way! That is (probably) what I am going to do. 

[iMustBeCrazy]

38 minutes ago, clearway said:

This ship is going to drive Keith S and myself completely nuts

Why do you think I chose my username?

 

The following is not intended to be condescending in any way, it's just me trying to put into words what I see.

 

My logic.

 

First, the azimuth compass is used to take bearings of objects (hills for example), you need to get your eye right up against the sights (somebody used the right word above but I can't find it) so the compass should be at about eye level. You also need to be able to take bearings in any direction, even behind you. That rules out taking bearings from the bridge.

 

Now lets look at the drawings:

The height of the' table' is about two foot three inches, so to take bearings using a compass on the 'table' would mean getting down on your knees also the 'table' is below the height of the bulwarks so you couldn't see anything anyway.

The top of the post is about seven foot five inches above the deck which rules out standing on the deck and using a compass on the top of the post.

From the top of the 'table' to the top of the post is about five foot one inch which would allow you to stand on the 'table' and take bearings with a compass on the top of the post which is how I assume it was used. You could have a post either side of the 'table' and move the compass from one to the other (or have two compasses) but I can't think of a good reason for that. Also the drawing clearly depicts a square something in the middle of the 'table'.

 

 

 

And from Starling 1829:

 

 

 

[Keith Black]

I couldn't find a email addy for Dr Mathew Betts but here is his twitter account if any of you tweet. Ask him!

 

 

https://twitter.com/HMSTerror_model?ref_src=twsrc^tfw|twcamp^embeddedtimeline|twterm^screen-name%3AHMSTerror_model|twcon^s1_c14

 

[Keith S]

Craig, not condescending in the slightest! You should be proud of your "Terror" detective work. That picture from "Starling" is all the proof I require. I was searching for an example. Now, we have one. Well done, old bean. This is a breakthrough equal to some of our other ones, like the curved davits or the little biffies on the stern. When Keith and I started on our models, nobody knew about the little W/Cs on the stern quarters, or the ten-spoked wheels, or the curved davits, or many of our hard-won "discoveries" that have since been proven correct by Dr. Betts, or research, or wreck photos. You've solved another one of our big mysteries!

 

 

Edited August 25, 2022 by Keith S

[Keith S]

2 hours ago, Keith Black said:

I couldn't find a email addy for Dr Mathew Betts but here is his twitter account if any of you tweet. Ask him!

 

 

 

 

Keith, I am even more proud of how we solved this problem by ourselves. Of course, by "ourselves" I mean "Craig from Australia" but you know what I mean. This little journey through the archives has been really exciting, and I hope the "Terror" has more mysteries for us before we're finished. I am going to propose that we make Craig an honourary "Keith" with all the privileges that implies.

Edited August 25, 2022 by Keith S

[iMustBeCrazy]

36 minutes ago, Keith S said:

You've solved another one of our big mysteries!

Thanks Keith, I'm sure it's right but it's easy to be sure about your own ideas, even when they're wrong

 

On to the binnacles, this is harder as there appears to be no hard evidence. So, one question at a time.

 

Why wouldn't the binnacles be if front of the helmsman where they belong? Can anybody suggest a reason this is not possible? (that's one question rephrased) Answers must include a stamped self addressed envelope.

[Keith S]

Well, I will tell you what I was thinking of doing. Right in front of the wheel, there's the flat-topped skylight over the Captain's cabin. I was toying with the idea that a binnacle (the old-fashioned "box with a lamp in it" kind) may have been lashed to the top of it. 

 

In the paragraph that Keith Black showed us, Dr. Betts reveals that there may have been a binnacle on either side of the helm. Also in John Ross' account of his voyage on the Alexander he writes about a binnacle on either side of the helm. 

 

This seems like good intel, but I am wondering, what did a "binnacle" look like in 1845?

 

Edited August 25, 2022 by Keith S

[iMustBeCrazy]

20 minutes ago, Keith S said:

Well, I will tell you what I was thinking of doing. Right in front of the wheel, there's the flat-topped skylight over the Captain's cabin. I was toying with the idea that a binnacle (the old-fashioned "box with a lamp in it" kind) may have been lashed to the top of it. 

 

In the paragraph that Keith Black showed us, Dr. Betts reveals that there may have been a binnacle on either side of the helm. Also in John Ross' account of his voyage on the Alexander he writes about a binnacle on either side of the helm. 

 

This seems like good intel, but I am wondering, what did a "binnacle" look like in 1845?

Are you trying to steal my thunder? You're not supposed to agree with me straight off the bat. I wanted arguments as to why I was wrong.

 

What did they look like? I'm guessing fairly simple as they were removable.

 

Some choices: https://www.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/search/binnacle?images=yes&date_from=1800&date_to=1848

 

 

 

[Keith Black]

See page 7 of the below link and note the binnacle on the left was used by the British Royal Navy in 1839. The base was 18 inches square and 24 inches high. 

 

http://www.balogh.com/binnacleflyerad.pdf

 

 

 

 

Edited August 25, 2022 by Keith Black

[clearway]

Hey up a lot of posts about posts during my shuteye😁. When you get your book Keith (and well done getting out of the airport) there is a drawing of an 1845 royal navy binnacle/ compass. Not sure if you seen the post a couple of days ago regarding the wavertree which had a compass forward and both sides of the wheel - don't forget the helmsman would have been standing on the starboard side with the wheel off to his left side so the compass and binnacle in the book would look o.k. beside the skylight- but once they reached the arctic the "normal" steering compasses would have been removed and stored and navigation would have used the azzimuth steering compass (which is why i think the drawing shows the post only and the azzimuth compass would have been on a binnacle on top of that so the navigator could get his heading and keep an eye on the needle). The idea of having to climb on the table every time you wanted a bearing/ course plotted seems like hard work. Also when/  if the bridge was dismantled they could ship the post and still mount the compass on the table?... oh and guys don't forget the  average height in 1845 was around 5'6" or there abouts maybe even a couple of inches shorter!

 

Keith

Edited August 25, 2022 by clearway
missed info

[clearway]

OK chaps i am taking the plunge...................😱

 

introducing footing for the infamous column

and as an encore we have a square hole in the table (had to move it forward because some idiot put the skid beam too far forward🤪. Also trialed the rope handrail, and yes i know there should be a gap tween the column and the bridge☺️

 

Thank you Craig (AKA Keith) for the invaluable input ,....... now to figure out a brass or wooden stand for the azimuth compass!

also while reading about the binnacles on the link supplied by Keith B i noticed this about the cutty sark "

The Tea Clipper, Cutty Sark, built in 1870, was an iron-framed and iron-clad ship. This is now a museum ship located in Greenwich, UK. According to the original specifications of the Cutty Sark, there were 3 compasses on board as well as spares: Compasses: Three binnacles to be found, viz. Steering Binnacle and Compass, Standard in front of Poop with Board of Trade Compass, Azimuth on Skids between Boats, one suspended Cabin Compass, two spare cards, two spare Agates and two spare pivots to each compass with deviation card to be found, and two spare brass compasses all to be properly adjusted by swinging the vessel

 

Take care all

Keith

 

Edited August 25, 2022 by clearway
missed info

[iMustBeCrazy]

 

What a pity this scene doesn't appear in the Parks Canada video :(

 

In the Terror site sketch ( post #509 ) we see both skylights have a section of their roof missing, possibly blown out by air pressure as she sank.

 

[clearway]

Yeah Craig.... Keith S and myself have been saying for two years if only they had panned this way or that way! some of the Juicy detail we need is soooooooooooo close (hey Keith have you organised a dive down to the engine room yet)!

 

It was interesting in my last update when reading the stuff about Cutty Sarks compasses in the link about compasses from Keith B how her Azimuth compass was also between the skid beams.

 

was not 100% about the post but in the end i got my (wait for it).........bearings!

 

Keith

[Keith S]

Yes, they had bl**dy well better go down in the engine-room on one of those dives, or I'm going down there myself!  Notwithstanding the modifications the engines had to enable them to function as ship powerplants, those will be the most intact and original "Planet" type engines in existence! Much the way Terror herself is the most intact and original Royal Navy sailing ship in existence. It is ridiculous that they haven't penetrated Erebus' orlop deck/engine room yet. (or maybe they have, and are just being sneaky and secretive as always) It is the FIRST place I would have checked out. Terror's engine room may contain clues as to how she got to Terror Bay in the first place!

[iMustBeCrazy]

2 hours ago, clearway said:

Cutty Sarks compasses in the link about compasses from Keith B how her Azimuth compass was also between the skid beams.

Oops, you distracted me. I didn't really find anything:

 

 

I did find a later photo showing the deckhouse roof between the boats but by then it was fitted with a winch and a bloody great (I think iron) water tank.

 

[clearway]

yeah, problem with Cutty Sark is she was altered in one way or another with rig changed and deck house alterations etc. Back to terror and i am thinking that navigation table is too big on the model so will salvage my carved walnut legs and rebuild it slightly smaller.

 

Today i had a day off work so took my son down to Ribblehead to see the Yorkshire three peaks  and the magnificent hand built Victorian viaduct (been over it loads of times but never got off at the station to have a look from below.. till today😁). the pics really dont do it justice!

 

Take care all

 

Keith

 

Edited August 27, 2022 by clearway
typo

[Keith S]

Funny, I just finished watching a video of the Coronation Scot crossing that viaduct. It must have been an old video, because that locomotive is now in the Museum with its streamlined casing. But in the video a chap was explaining that the bridge has been limited to a single track and that soon, people might be walking across it to change trains due to structural weakening. I wonder if they ever repaired it.