Translation help needed - Renaissance German

[Louie da fly]

Can anyone help with translating the accompanying text for this picture, of a carrack used in a pilgrimage to Jerusalem in 1487?

I'd always thought the crescent flag meant that it was a Muslim ship, but it seems the crescent was in fairly common use in Western heraldry, and the text might give a clue to the nationality of the ship. 

 

I learnt German for a short time when I was in school, but the elapsed time, the script and the Renaissance German make it impossible for me tomake any headway. I've managed to work out a few words, but the overall meaning is far  beyond me.

[AnobiumPunctatum]

I speak German, but I couldn't read the text. I think that this are an old dialect and letters.

[captain_hook]

The picture is a part of the travel report written by a german knight templar named ‚Konrad von Grünenberg’ who went to Jerusalem 1486. During his trip he draw this ship which was a turkish ship (former Ottoman empire) he saw near Modon (Greece).

[Louie da fly]

48 minutes ago, AnobiumPunctatum said:

I think that this are an old dialect and letters.

Yes, that's the trouble. Difficult even for someone whose native tongue is modern German.

 

20 minutes ago, captain_hook said:

The picture is a part of the travel report written by a german knight templar named ‚Konrad von Grünenberg’ who went to Jerusalem 1486.

Yes, Thanks for that, Captain Hook. I knew that much from my earlier reading, but I couldn't read whether it said where the ship came from.

21 minutes ago, captain_hook said:

During his trip he draw this ship which was a turkish ship (former Ottoman empire) he saw near Modon (Greece).

Is it stated in the text that this ship is Turkish? I just wanted some firm evidence for the nationality of the ship. If it's definitely Turkish, it's evidence for how widespread carracks were.  

[Mark P]

Good Morning Louie;

 

Thanks for posting a very interesting picture. It looks to me as though the last four words on the second line say 'von den turken skafft' or something very similar. I stand to be corrected, though, by someone with a better knowledge of German than mine. 

 

All the best,

 

Mark P

[Louie da fly]

Well, modern German for"ship" is "schiff", and we have the word "skiff" in English. I can see the bit you mean, and the first line seems to say "sie haffen stund (something) vor Modon sagt man (something something) argt hundert (something something) so al von den turken skafft(?) which seems to they were heading for Modon and it cost eight hundred something to board the Turkish ship (maybe?). Unfortunately renaissance blackletter handwriting is not my strong point. But I do think you're right that it refers to a Turkish vessel. Perhaps I should wait for Captain Hook to get back and clear it all up . . .

[goetzi73]

Hello Louie,

 

I'am a native speaker (german), too. But in this case it's difficult for me. Nevertheless from the old low-german dialect, the phrase "sie haffen stund" could mean "they where waiting", oder "they were standing (watching, etx.)". The phrase "so al von den turken skafft" could mean "bought from the turkish", "got from the turkish", "it was al brought / bought by the turkish". Looking at the drawing, I'am not sure if this word really writes "skafft". The first letter could also be someting else than "s".

Maybe we have someone here with proper knowledge in medeavial european languages.

 

Regards,

 

Götz

[iMustBeCrazy]

33 minutes ago, Louie da fly said:

"sie haffen stund (something) vor Modon sagt man (something something) argt hundert (something something) so al von den turken skafft(?)

Sounds like me trying to decipher my great great great uncle's journal of his voyage from Gravesend to Adelaide in 1853.

 

April 18^th The weather now very calm, had the awning up and established a ???? society for the ???? of bad language, G L ??????? secretary. ???? ???? for a week in succession every time one who said a bad word was fined 1/4^d which the secretary collected & paid to me every Sunday afternoon, this has proved an admirable affair.

 

April 30^th ???? the trade winds, crossed the Tropic of Cancer.

 

April 23^rd Saw Cape de Verde Islands, at least two of them, vis ???? and Brava.

 

April 24^th ???? all day, one of the forward passengers shot a duck but could not get it, saw three flying fish.

 

Back on topic, I think I've cleaned it up some.

 

[Chapman]

I am also German, but this old language is difficult to read if you haven't studied it in detail.

So I looked for a translation of the original.  And the travel description was translated into standard German.

https://books.google.de/books/about/Von_Konstanz_nach_Jerusalem.html?id=dDOVrgEACAAJ&redir_esc=y

Quote

"In addition to in-depth commentary and explanations of all illustrations, this edition also offers a complete translation of the Middle High German text."

Unfortunately I don't have the book, but maybe someone can help.

 

[druxey]

'erkofft' perhaps? Bought?

[iMustBeCrazy]

There is a PDF copy of the whole (untranslated) manuscript at https://digital.blb-karlsruhe.de/blbhs/content/titleinfo/7061 (click on PDF) which can be greatly enlarged in a PDF reader (page 108). Edit: file size 128MB

 

 

[Jaager]

I haven't gotten to 1487 in The Great Sea yet,  but the Turks were mostly lubbers and the Greeks mostly handled the sea going - if not Genoa, or Venice or other webfoot traders - leading up to this time for the city on the Dardanelles.  For the ship type, I would be reluctant to make any regional specifics limited  to too small a region in the Med.  The relevance of the script may not be all that much.

 

There are some interesting details. 

3 masts,  main mast made,  sliding slot for lateen mizzen,  two part yards, 

near horizontal after castle,  too many mushrooms when drawing the fore castle slope. 

serious number of wales, 

I have wondered about  the vertical strakes at the waist -  vertical wales? , but with the number of horizontal wales and the problem that they could cause, I guess that they are rubbing strakes.  These guys stopped as often as a city bus,  for water, food, and trade so hauling up a boat or big barrels must have been a near daily operation.  

The "circular attachments" on main mast castle and fore mast castle - shields? 

The web above each of the mast castles -  was there a problem with resting sea birds and their poop?  If things got to a point where that was needed as a defense netting, conditions on deck would likely have been dire already.  To keep the soldiers in?   I remember a dice shaker -  a flat base, a clear hemisphere, middle long spring with a suction attachment - pull it to one side and let go - the dice rattle all around the interior.  In a blow, anyone up there would be a die.

Why does only the right side of the mainsail have a stitched supplement?

[Louie da fly]

Thanks everybody for the feedback. Unfortunately the combination of old script and old language make it very difficult. Lacking anyone who can read the old script we're reduced to guesswork. So farit seems to say something like

 

"They stood (have stood) [stundge . . ssen?] for (i.e. towards) Modon someone said eight hundred [mo. . g?] of the Turkish [ship?]" - so to m this means they wanted to go to Modon and were charged 800 of some monetary unit .

 

I'd like to investigate this further, but at least I'm pretty sure that the answer to my original question as to whether this is a Turkish ship is yes.

 

Jaager, you're right - those are rubbing strakes - they were quite common on carracks before 1500. The "circular attachments" look ball-shaped to me - I'm pretty sure they're not shields, but I have no idea what purpose they would serve, except perhaps for signalling or something of the sort - like the black ball that is dropped down the mast at noon on land to tell ships what the time is.

 

Normally that netting is to deter boarders, but I can't see it being used that way at the top of a mast . . . They usually put netting over the decks in case of attack, but that's not shown here (maybe not installed in normal times?)

 

The "stitched supplement" is a bonnet - removing it was how you decreased the area of your sail before reef-points came into use. I think this is an artist error - if you look carefully you can see at the far left (i.e. port) side of the sail there's just a bit of the seam between the mainsail and the bonnet. I think the artist just forgot to put the rest of it in.

 

I agree about the seagoing abilities of the Turks at the time. They had been a steppe race and the sea was a bit of a mystery to them, at least at first. I seem to recall that during the siege of Constantinople (I think one earlier than their final conquest of 1453) their fleet was cobbled together from whatever they could lay their hands on, and reinforcements from one of the Italian republics were able to get past because of the inability of the Turkish ships to stop the big, modern ships coming to Constantinople's aid. However, they seem to have learnt fast -or employed people wit the knowledge and technology. I know of at least two other pictures from about the end of the 15th century showing big carracks in Turkish use - the Piri Reis map of 1513, and the picture of the Battle of Zonchio of 1499. By 1565 they were certainly in use by the Turks - the Knights of Malta captured one belonging to a high court official - possibly one of the reasons for the Turkish invasion of Malta that year.

 

A lot of other interesting details in this picture - you can see the wedges of the mainmast, either sheaves or scuppers in the hull, at least two of them are sheaves - one for the maintack and one for the main sheet - lots of interesting rigging details including topping lifts, showing the shape of the blocks in use, the shrouds seem to be tied directly to a side rail, there'saladder to the quarterdeck which doesn't seem to quite make it all the way up, and what are those sort of grating things next to it, with "blobs" on top of the uprights? Perhaps something similar to the openwork sides of the poop superstructure?

 

Fascinating stuff . . .

[Matle]

The illustration doesn’t necessarily have to be based on the Turkish ship they met.   I’d wager we are looking at a Hanseatic ship with Turkish flags. Even the figurehead (I doubt 15th century  Turks would put a dog sculpture on their ship by the way - though as mentioned they did charter ships from Christian subjects) looks like the one recently picked up from the bottom of the Baltic: https://www.vrakmuseum.se/en/wrecks-and-remains/shipwrecks/gribshunden

[cotrecerf]

Hello Louie da fly and all others interested in this subject,

 

I have a facsimile print of this medieval travel report. The handwriting is Gothische Kursive  widely used all over Europe for makin books ( almost all were hand-written. Two specialists for that era, Prof. Dr. F. Reichert and Dr. A. Denke have scientifically examined the original  and transcribed the text into modern German. In my translation it says:

 

This Nave (ship) stood  by Modon ( town in Greece Peloponnes). It is said, it held 800 Moors ( African slaves) , who had been bought as their property by the Turks, poor people. It is estimated that the Turks were 400 people. They sailed to Modon and bought many oxen and other things, so that everything became expensive immediately.

 

As to the representation of the ship it is to be considered, that von Grünemberg contracted professional writers and illustrators, who had actually NOT seen the ship personally. The illustrators very often simply copied existing representations and made some individual additions to make them more "flashy" and in such way wanted to justify their wages.

 

The ship is to represent definetly a Turkish vessel plying in the Eastern Mediterranean. The golden "balls" in the mast top may represent clay jars holding fuel to be trown to an enemy ship to set it at fire.

 

In any case it is a very interesting matter to further investigate in shipbuilding during late medieval period.

 

best regards from a hot and damp Germany.

 

Cotrecerf

[amateur]

With regard to thebon et in the main sail, I would say the artist did his job: you can see the bonnetn both sides, part of it being hidden by the dragon/wolf. (Would not guess that being a dog)

And going by the way the artist draws the fishy things in the water, perhaps the detailing in the ship might not be acurate to the smallest detail

 

Jan

[Louie da fly]

Thanks for the likes and for the replies.

 

Matle, I'd agree that it would be unlikely for Turks at that time to put an animal figurehead on a ship. However there were plenty of people who'd already been in shipping when the Turks took over, who would have simply continued in business, and it may have been such a ship. And yes, such figureheads are quite common on contemporary pictures of carracks, and the discovery of the Gribshunden one was a wonderful proof that they really did exist.

 

Cotrecerf, thanks in particular for the translation. That's very helpful indeed. It links together what I'd made from my poor attempts at translating and makes it all into a coherent whole. I think you might be right -  that von Grünemberg would have considered himself "above" making his own drawings and local artists to illustrate his account of the pilgrimage once he got home. Certainly some other pictures in his account support that idea - particularly that whoever drew the pictures didn't fully understand how a lateen sail works.

 

 

 

On the other hand, the level of detail in the drawings suggests someone who actually observed the ships first hand, even if lateen sails confused him. Look at the placement of the lifeboat on the galley, the supports below the oar outrigger, and other details. And though galleys did get at least as far into the Atlantic as Antwerp (I have a picture from 1515) the ship behind the galley and the ship on the left in the picture below are vessels characteristic only of the Mediterranean. It's my opinion that von Grünemberg took an artist with him to illustrate the journey. The flag with the complex red cross on it is directly connected with the Kingdom of Jerusalem - though Jerusalem had fallen centuries before, the "kingdom in exile" still existed. With some research it would probably be possible to track down the yellow and blue striped coat of arms on the galley's awning and banners. Just below the "crow's nest" is a note in red which seems to say "Duser galleig" - perhaps it's from the port of Durazzo/Durres in the Balkans?

 

The idea of the balls being clay containers for fire weapons is interesting. Perhaps that really is what they were.

 

 

Amateur, I agree about the bonnet. I think the artists just missed a bit of line immediately to the right and left of the wolf's head which would have made it complete.

 

 

 

 

[Matle]

That’s a Contarini galley (the blue and yellow is indeed their arms) - Contarini was based in Venice and ran charter tours to Jerusalem for pilgrims. I believe he had a more or less a monopoly when Konrad went, so I guess Konrad travelled with him. 

 

The town on the last image is Ragusa (Dubrovnik) by the way.

[Louie da fly]

Thanks, Matle. Von Grünenberg, as is to be expected from a member of the mediaeval/renaissance ruling class, was almost obsessed with heraldry, and I'd be prepared to believe that every coat of arms portrayed is accurate.

 

On 8/15/2020 at 7:28 AM, Matle said:

The town on the last image is Ragusa (Dubrovnik) by the way.

Yes, that one I knew from the text. But the fortifications shown are not as they are now.

 

 

Either the artist got it wrong or (more likely) they were rebuilt to cope with the new more powerful cannons coming into use at this time. Tall walls and tall towers were vulnerable, and new, more compact forms were coming in - see the fortifications of Malta which were built in the first half of the 16th century.

 

 

[Edit]Compare this with the marine gate at Rhodes, built  when artillery wasn't such an issue, and the main thing to guard against was people scaling the walls. So walls were built very high, with battlements to deter climbers and infantry. Cannons changed all that - one of the main reasons the Turkish conquest of Constantinople succeeded.

 

 

And here's some information about von Grünenberg himself - https://www.petersommer.com/blog/another-view/gruenenberg-1486-croatia-greece - apparently he was the artist! And you can find the whole book at https://digital.blb-karlsruhe.de/blbhs/content/thumbview/7681 - amazing! I'm very glad I followed this up. Strangely, one of the pics I'm most interested in - of Sibenik in Croatia (because it has a great picture of a carrack in it) in this version the ship is different.

 

This is the one I'd like to get in more detail: it's attributed to von Grünenberg

 

 

And this is what the above archive has:

 

 

Same city, same configuration, same coat of arms (though reversed out), but different. Presumably they re-drew the pic for another edition. Dammit!

 

Oh, and if you want some more carracks, the Peregrinatio in Terram Sanctum (Pilgrimage in the Holy Land) by von Breydenbach has some good pictures; https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo/von-breydenbach.html

 

[/Edit]

 

[Louie da fly]

Aha! Did an image search for Sibenik 1486, and voila!

 

 

Not perfect, but certainly better.

[iMustBeCrazy]

3 hours ago, Louie da fly said:

Aha! Did an image search for Sibenik 1486, and voila!

Steven, I think this is as far as I can push it, hope it helps:

 

 

[Louie da fly]

Craig, that's fantastic! Really pushing the limits of the technology. Do you mind if I upload this to my Pinterest carrack page?

[iMustBeCrazy]

1 hour ago, Louie da fly said:

Do you mind if I upload this to my Pinterest carrack page?

No problem, it gave me something different to do. Unfortunately it only took about 10 seconds.

[Louie da fly]

Thanks, mate. So much better than I started out with. Quite a lot of worthwhile detail. You can never have too many pictures of carracks.