Glory of the Seas 1869 by rwiederrich - FINISHED - 1/96 - medium clipper

[ClipperFan]

16 hours ago, ClipperFan said:

 

 

Rob,

It occurred to me that I didn't answer your question about very precise angles you've accomplished by drawing digital plot lines directly onto the image. The parabaloid is a possible effect of drawing a circle on an angle due to perspective compensation. If you drew a separate circle on the 90 degree angle, my guess is it wouldn't match Glory's curved Bow. Completing the arc to a full circle and overlaying the rest of a box around it, I believe you'd get your answer, that it's actually a circle on an angle. That would mean Glory's bow is the 57 degree section of a circle. Another fascinating development is that this circle actually extends right to the foot of her figurehead, instead of straightening out, which I initially thought. Compare her forlorn Bow sans figurehead in later a broadside image, it confirms that design feature. 

I think we can also now feel confident that Glory's underwater Bow profile is not straight but more accurately a -7 degree minimally bowed line to her keel. I believe we may have unearthed a key component in being able to finally arrive at Glory's true form.

[rwiederrich]

29 minutes ago, ClipperFan said:

Attempt to attach a pdf file was blocked. Simply typing in the url address failed too. If given an accurate e-mail address, this will work. I have successfully sent many pdf files to my local print shop to enlarge images as well as print those images in larger formats up to Ledger size not supported by my in home printer.

 

Robert....Mike is sending Ron images via snail-mail...and he informs me that he just sent some to him and he doesn't expect to hear from him for several weeks.  He communicates via email and snail-mail.   Mike is requesting that Ron revisit his drawings and use some of these new images to aid him.

 

Rob

[ClipperFan]

Rob, that's excellent news! Perhaps our member Tony Hunt can get this info to Ron Haug quicker, since he lives nearby, as he just told us. Our images can easily be converted to pdf files and emailed to him. He can then bring his laptop to a local printer and deliver them to mr Haug. What do you think?

[rwiederrich]

45 minutes ago, ClipperFan said:

Rob, that's excellent news! Perhaps our member Tony Hunt can get this info to Ron Haug quicker, since he lives nearby, as he just told us. Our images can easily be converted to pdf files and emailed to him. He can then bring his laptop to a local printer and deliver them to mr Haug. What do you think?

 

I think that might be a great idea.  I did ask Mike what images he was  referencing that he said he gave Ron.  Are they from his extensive collection, or are they some that we have been drawing?  I hope the latter.

 

Rob

[rwiederrich]

2 hours ago, ClipperFan said:

Rob,

It occurred to me that I didn't answer your question about very precise angles you've accomplished by drawing digital plot lines directly onto the image. The parabaloid is a possible effect of drawing a circle on an angle due to perspective compensation. If you drew a separate circle on the 90 degree angle, my guess is it wouldn't match Glory's curved Bow. Completing the arc to a full circle and overlaying the rest of a box around it, I believe you'd get your answer, that it's actually a circle on an angle. That would mean Glory's bow is the 57 degree section of a circle. Another fascinating development is that this circle actually extends right to the foot of her figurehead, instead of straightening out, which I initially thought. Compare her forlorn Bow sans figurehead in later a broadside image, it confirms that design feature. 

I think we can also now feel confident that Glory's underwater Bow profile is not straight but more accurately a -7 degree minimally bowed line to her keel. I believe we may have unearthed a key component in being able to finally arrive at Glory's true form.

 

The key to a firm conclusion was to eliminate the usual incline of the ways...which I determined was roughly 3deg established from plumb derived from her port anchor shank and martingale.  Establishing that, I could determine the horizontal..by which I was able to work out the true plumb/vertical of the hull.  From there, easily determine that the inclination of the bow below the radios of the stem(57%) was -7deg.

 

All of this combined with your own assessments and observations/impressions...places the truth of her bow within our grasp.

This...being evidenced by Mike's own admission that he wants Ron to readdress his own drawings.  Success favors the prepared mind...and we have several minds working in concert.   

I will again apply my measurements to a 1/8" enlargement of the bow Ron drew to see the corrections necessary.

 

Rob

Edited February 8, 2021 by rwiederrich

[ClipperFan]

Rob while you're doing that, might I suggest using the 22' distance from keel to waterline to measure height above to get that dimension too? It can also be confirmed by using her 90" figurehead as a 2nd reference. 

[rwiederrich]

50 minutes ago, ClipperFan said:

Rob while you're doing that, might I suggest using the 22' distance from keel to waterline to measure height above to get that dimension too? It can also be confirmed by using her 90" figurehead as a 2nd reference. 

 

 

I've done that already.

Ron's depiction shows the waterline 3ft higher then the 22' recorded and his curve of the stem is all off because he does not take into consideration the Naval hood above the figurehead.  So his stem curve become the top of the Hood.  I've done some redraws over the 1/8" example Mike gave me and I left the original lines drawn by Ron so one can see the difference.

 

I'll post this when I get home.

 

Rob

Edited February 8, 2021 by rwiederrich

[rwiederrich]

I might note that your original drawing of the figurehead,   was pretty close to what I gathered...though with a slightly elongated hood and stem

 

Photographic Images show the top of the hood is fairly flat under the bowsprit .

 

Rob

[ClipperFan]

25 minutes ago, rwiederrich said:

I might note that your original drawing of the figurehead,   was pretty close to what I gathered...though with a slightly elongated hood and stem

 

Photographic Images show the top of the hood is fairly flat under the bowsprit .

 

Rob

 

[ClipperFan]

Thanks for the compliment. This particular sketch, done on a post-it note was while I was waiting in the car. Both Naval Hood and Carved Arch look accurate but Glory's Goddess Figurehead is way too small in proportion to those other devices. In comparison, she should be at least a 1/3rd bigger. Doing that would scale down the exaggerated distance  of the Naval Hood, which you're observing. The Anchor hole is also ridiculously tiny in this sketch as well. The Cutwater should also be a complete arc right up to the scroll base of her figurehead. You're welcome to rescale the dimensions, if you want.

[rwiederrich]

13 minutes ago, ClipperFan said:

Thanks for the compliment. This particular sketch, done on a post-it note was while I was waiting in the car. Both Naval Hood and Carved Arch look accurate but Glory's Goddess Figurehead is way too small in proportion to those other devices. In comparison, she should be at least a 1/3rd bigger. Doing that would scale down the exaggerated distance  of the Naval Hood, which you're observing. The Anchor hole is also ridiculously tiny in this sketch as well. The Cutwater should also be a complete arc right up to the scroll base of her figurehead. You're welcome to rescale the dimensions, if you want.

 

 

Oh....I already did on my new drawing I'll post this afternoon.  You gave that post it to me several years ago I believe.

 

Rob

[ClipperFan]

To aid in efforts to get these components more accurate, I took out the intense blue and then cropped the components. Another issue I noticed is the figurehead's flowing gown should be much thinner by half.

[ClipperFan]

On the plus side, it looks like this little sketch captures her graceful attitude fairly accurately. Her front gown clutched in the left hand appears to create a reverse "S" curve popular in many 1900s vessels. That too needs to be added.

[rwiederrich]

54 minutes ago, ClipperFan said:

On the plus side, it looks like this little sketch captures her graceful attitude fairly accurately. Her front gown clutched in the left hand appears to create a reverse "S" curve popular in many 1900s vessels. That too needs to be added.

 

The hood is still too long...her head, neck and partial shoulders should extend past the tip of the hood.  Making her the most forward structure to the prow.

 

The hood appears to be flat on its top...just under the flat surface of the bowsprit.

 

Rob

[rwiederrich]

This pic is of the redrawn bow from the 1/8" drawing from Ron

I have corrected some issues with the stem leading to the figurehead and the naval hood.  Also raked back the overly vertical cutwater from the curve of the stem to the keel foot.

 

Included are the original and my mods.

 

 

Rob

[ClipperFan]

Rob, your revisions are definitely getting Glory's form in the right direction. It's amazing how a simple -7 degree incline of her prow below waterline has improved her look and made her more recognizable. Naval Hood and Carved Arch still need refinement; like my sketch, her figurehead is too low and too small. As usual with this incredibly challenging project "the devil's in the details." I suspect by nailing down accurate dimensions of the Naval Hoods and Carved Arch, which now looks to be 8' relative to her 7 1/2' figurehead, the rest of the specs will fall in line much easier. I've included a series of Glory on the Ways, the clearest I've seen (you can actually count the strakes on it). It's also probably the best image of her undamaged figurehead. The 1900s image clearly shows how she does project beyond the Naval Hoods as does the newspaper clipping. A couple more sketches show how I'm attempting to keep both sides of her accurate. Last image is still probably the best approximation so far and it too still doesn't project far enough.

[TheAuthorsDaughter]

Hey all -

We’ve  set  up a new email address for my father - easier to keep everything in the proper compartments for his various projects, etc. As my folks own the rights to numerous articles, photos and his books this is just a natural progression -  Pacific Maritime Publishing Foundation.  In my spare time I’ll eventually do more with a website I’m sure (you can’t see me but I’m laughing hysterically becasue I don’t have any spare time!!)

 

PacMaritimePubFdn@gmail.com

[michael mott]

On 2/6/2021 at 10:39 AM, ClipperFan said:

What is it with Donald McKay and fires anyway? His first Extreme Clipper "Staghound" burnt to the waterline, the same fate happened to two of the four James Baines Australian line Clippers "Lightning" and his namesake "James Baines."

About 42 years ago I made a small commission for a chap who was giving a gift to an owner of a swan yacht, it was a small brass bracket with a chunk of the deck of the clipper ship the Lightning which sank at Geelong. In payment for the work I asked for the balance of the piece of the deck. it was granted, here is the piece that I have.

 

 

 

 

Michael

 

 

 

[Tony Hunt]

That's a wonderful relic, Michael. Do you have any plans for it, or are you going to keep it "as is"?

[ClipperFan]

7 hours ago, michael mott said:

About 42 years ago I made a small commission for a chap who was giving a gift to an owner of a swan yacht, it was a small brass bracket with a chunk of the deck of the clipper ship the Lightning which sank at Geelong. In payment for the work I asked for the balance of the piece of the deck. it was granted, here is the piece that I have.

 

 

 

 

Michael

 

 

 

On 2/3/2021 at 5:54 PM, rwiederrich said:

 

 

I knew Mike had 3 models made, but I was under the impression the one you brought was the only one he possessed?

*Bare bones* hulls can be completed...I wonder if Mike would entertain the notion of allowing me to finish it?

 

Rob

Swe

[ClipperFan]

Michael Mott

That's an impressive piece. While "Lightning" was destroyed by fire, she didn't go without a fight. They tried to scuttle her, shot rounds of cannon to hole her and finally blew her up, all while she was ablaze.

The round post inserted inside, is that a treenail? I always thought that usually those were square but it certainly looks like it is. Thanks for sharing it with us. 

[druxey]

I hope you've labelled that piece, Michael. Otherwise some day it may be mistaken for firewood....

[rwiederrich]

9 hours ago, TheAuthorsDaughter said:

Hey all -

We’ve  set  up a new email address for my father - easier to keep everything in the proper compartments for his various projects, etc. As my folks own the rights to numerous articles, photos and his books this is just a natural progression -  Pacific Maritime Publishing Foundation.  In my spare time I’ll eventually do more with a website I’m sure (you can’t see me but I’m laughing hysterically becasue I don’t have any spare time!!)

 

PacMaritimePubFdn@gmail.com

 

 

Arina...you're doing a wonderful job.

Should we begin now by using the new email address to communicate with Mike?

Since I'm assuming all that communication will be Glory or nautical centered?

 

Rob

[rwiederrich]

9 hours ago, michael mott said:

About 42 years ago I made a small commission for a chap who was giving a gift to an owner of a swan yacht, it was a small brass bracket with a chunk of the deck of the clipper ship the Lightning which sank at Geelong. In payment for the work I asked for the balance of the piece of the deck. it was granted, here is the piece that I have.

 

 

 

 

Michael

 

 

 

 

Look at the growth rings in that sample. That was an old tree when that log was cut for that timber.

 

Love it Michael.

 

Rob

[rwiederrich]

From those extremely clear images of Glory's figurehead and hood...I see now that her bowsprit is not parallel to the hood at all.  The root of the sprit sits down deep and the hood is much fuller then in both of our drawings.  You can clearly see she is protruding beyond the hood...probably just below her shoulder blades.

 

I knew my representation of those elements were not as accurate as I had pleased...but as all things...they too will be refined.

From my drawings imposed on Dan's originals...you can clearly see the rake of her photographed prow, that you have been attempting to point out.

 

One thing I did notice is that from all the images you posted of her on the ways...by looking at the close up of her figurehead it dawned on me that the hood was being masked by the angle of the photograph.  It too takes on the impression that it is shorter then it actually is...so all the computations we have been applying to other elements, must surely apply to it.  Just a thought.

 

Still....we are far closer to her actuality then when we first began with what we had to start with....I'm sure.

 

It's fascinating to me to wonder that all of the years (65 or more) that Michael has dedicated to this study, coupled with the efforts we two and others(from Australia) have contributed....have brought us here to this place were we are on the cusp of reimagining Glory of the Seas true dimensions and beauty.

 

How wonderful it is.

 

Rob

[rwiederrich]

3 hours ago, druxey said:

I hope you've labelled that piece, Michael. Otherwise some day it may be mistaken for firewood....

 

I agree...protect and label

 

Rob

[michael mott]

I had not thought about that so now I will do something to protect it and put a small information label with it. The peg does indeed look to be a treenail it does go right through and is mangled on the other side.

 

I am really enjoying your journey of discovery and research Rob on the Glory of the seas.

 

Michael

[rwiederrich]

3 hours ago, michael mott said:

I had not thought about that so now I will do something to protect it and put a small information label with it. The peg does indeed look to be a treenail it does go right through and is mangled on the other side.

 

I am really enjoying your journey of discovery and research Rob on the Glory of the seas.

 

Michael

 

 

Michael...you had better hold tight to that artifact of Lightning....I might just slip in one night and relieve you of it.....of course while I'm sleep walking..... of course.  Since I won't be responsible for my actions.......HeeHeeHee     I wonder if you could possibly double your value, by using your band saw and cutting it in half down through the treenail....making two manageable displayable parts?  Possibly with a nice weathered brass placard describing the artifact?  You really wouldn't be destroying it...but rather proclaiming it.......twice!

 

I appreciate your viewing of the thread....it gladdens my heart to know an artist of your caliber finds interest in these pages.

 

Rob(Humble purveyor of Glory history and artifacts)  

[ClipperFan]

As far as Michael dissecting an irreplaceable section of McKay's Clipper "Lightning" I would say please absolutely don't. My vote would to be to place it in a nicely done wood and glass framed enclosure, sitting on a clear support inside with a mirror base so the bottom can be viewed too. A simple brass plate detailing the piece could be added, possibly identifying the location of the vessel where its piece originated. Finally, a nice print of Jack Spurling's impressive "Lightning" would complete the presentation.

[ClipperFan]

As far as Michael dissecting an irreplaceable section of McKay's Clipper "Lightning" I would say please absolutely don't. My vote would to be to place it in a nicely done wood and glass framed enclosure, sitting on a clear support inside with a mirror base so the bottom can be viewed too. A simple brass plate detailing the piece could be added, possibly identifying the location of the vessel where its piece originated. Finally, a nice print of Jack Spurling's impressive "Lightning" would complete the presentation.