Glory of the Seas 1869 by rwiederrich - FINISHED - 1/96 - medium clipper

[ClipperFan]

Rob, you are such a classy guy. I deeply appreciate your generous gift. It arrived very carefully wrapped in tissue paper. While this is an ex Library book, looking at it is like journeying back in time. There's even a small, discreet date in pencil: 12/6/71 which looks like the date this book was placed into circulation. It's also a genuine First Edition from 1970. For a book that's now 51 years old, it's in like brand new condition. Add in the author Michael Mjelde's generous signature and this indeed is a deeply appreciated family Heirloom. Thank you just seems to be insufficient for such a nice gesture.

[rwiederrich]

49 minutes ago, ClipperFan said:

Rob, you are such a classy guy. I deeply appreciate your generous gift. It arrived very carefully wrapped in tissue paper. While this is an ex Library book, looking at it is like journeying back in time. There's even a small, discreet date in pencil: 12/6/71 which looks like the date this book was placed into circulation. It's also a genuine First Edition from 1970. For a book that's now 51 years old, it's in like brand new condition. Add in the author Michael Mjelde's generous signature and this indeed is a deeply appreciated family Heirloom. Thank you just seems to be insufficient for such a nice gesture.

I’m so glad you enjoy it.  I knew you’d love the history of the library first addition.  Notice the front leaf page sticker identifying the author.  My other copies do not have this sticker.  Unique .                                             Rob

[rwiederrich]

1 hour ago, ClipperFan said:

As far as Michael dissecting an irreplaceable section of McKay's Clipper "Lightning" I would say please absolutely don't. My vote would to be to place it in a nicely done wood and glass framed enclosure, sitting on a clear support inside with a mirror base so the bottom can be viewed too. A simple brass plate detailing the piece could be added, possibly identifying the location of the vessel where its piece originated. Finally, a nice print of Jack Spurling's impressive "Lightning" would complete the presentation.

Well since the piece has already been sawed along it’s width , making it into 2 objects of appreciation could not diminish its significance in any way.  Plus cutting along her inserted treenails axis would provide a clear view of the intricate process of the tree nail and diminish the artifact to a more manageable size.  Plus you’ll have 2 of them.    However,  if sensibilities are to be served, then keep it as is and just provide larger accommodations, and disregard any further lunacies coming from my mouth.                        Rob

[michael mott]

17 minutes ago, rwiederrich said:

Well since the piece has already been sawed along it’s width

I only cut about 3/4 of an inch off the length of the piece for the gift. I will put together a display that will give it the visual attention to show the piece to advantage, I like the ideal of including the artwork as well perhaps a note about the treenail and their use.

 

Michael

[ClipperFan]

In case the there are some on this forum who aren't familiar with British Sailor Artist Jack Spurling's phenomenal work, here's his powerful depiction of McKay's wonderful "Lightning". I always wished Mr Spurling had done one of "Glory of the Seas." 

As impressive as a genuine sample of the actual vessel is in itself, most people wouldn't grasp the significance. Connecting it to this once glorious ship would be a great assist.

While Rob's suggestion is intriguing with potential benefit of displaying construction from the inside, not being personally familiar with today's high speed saws, my concern would be is there any possibility of possibly damaging the treenail section? From what I've read, treenails usually had a wedge punched into them to swell them up and make the joint even tighter. Would slicing it through the middle safely reveal this feature or destroy it?

[ClipperFan]

Thanks to Arina's generous participation, I was also given Mr Mjelde's email contact info. He just shared two images of "Glory of the Seas at San Pedro dock, 1907" One, a Bow close up detail is much clearer than that published in the book. According to Mr Mjelde, it's because this was a direct print of an original 35mm film negative processed 40 years ago! Usually I can reorient images to get them viewable better, in this case, I couldn't accomplish it until I cropped the image. So I've shared both. I commented to Mike, which he said he prefers to be called that I wanted to get his permission before sharing these rare images. His response is to be sure to credit him, that's all. He also voiced his full support for our efforts to create the most accurate plans possible for future would be modelers of McKay's last Clipper.

[rwiederrich]

8 hours ago, michael mott said:

I only cut about 3/4 of an inch off the length of the piece for the gift. I will put together a display that will give it the visual attention to show the piece to advantage, I like the ideal of including the artwork as well perhaps a note about the treenail and their use.

 

Michael

 

Well see Michael...you have already accomplished the purist form of violation according to some.  You had already sawn a piece off.  In someone's eyes, the most heinous crime against an artifact that one could imagine.  I on the other hand hold to no such unrealistic standard.  The piece is what it is and without factual verifiable means to identify it as described.(It's possible you have some evidence), you are left with your own interpretation of display of the artifact.   Personally, I'm jealous you even have it...knowing that the master shipbuilder had imagined that timber to be what it has become.   A living piece of one of his creations.  And now...Apart from all imaginations and emotion associated with such a relic, it sits in your possession......waiting for whatever fait you deem appropriate.

 

I have rambled on long enough....now back to our previously scheduled programing.

 

Rob

Edited February 10, 2021 by rwiederrich

[rwiederrich]

3 hours ago, ClipperFan said:

In case the there are some on this forum who aren't familiar with British Sailor Artist Jack Spurling's phenomenal work, here's his powerful depiction of McKay's wonderful "Lightning". I always wished Mr Spurling had done one of "Glory of the Seas." 

As impressive as a genuine sample of the actual vessel is in itself, most people wouldn't grasp the significance. Connecting it to this once glorious ship would be a great assist.

While Rob's suggestion is intriguing with potential benefit of displaying construction from the inside, not being personally familiar with today's high speed saws, my concern would be is there any possibility of possibly damaging the treenail section? From what I've read, treenails usually had a wedge punched into them to swell them up and make the joint even tighter. Would slicing it through the middle safely reveal this feature or destroy it?

 

Jack Spurling!  I knew you'd prick my memory muscle.  Yes Spurling.  I have a 3 volume table collection that features many of his paintings....Next to Montaque Dawson he is a favorite of mine.

 

High speed band saws can cut through that  piece like butter and not even disturb the well seated treenail.  It does take a firm minded adventurer to take the risk....but all in all, I feel the result..when well polished could be a fantastic display.  Kinda like an exploded view from within.

 

I know the quality of craftmanship Michael Mott produces and I'm sure he could finish the newly cut surfaces into a work of art in of themselves.  Revealing with his display not only the artifact itself.....but the intricate structure and design of the treenail....from inside.  And since treenails were made from a different species of wood then the timber......their finished colors may vary.

 

Anyway....just a thought of how I'd present the artifact....being somewhat a plain unpretentious block of wood,  I'd capitalize on its construction and the designers intended purpose for it.

 

Ding*  timer's up!

 

Rob

Edited February 10, 2021 by rwiederrich

[rwiederrich]

2 hours ago, ClipperFan said:

Thanks to Arina's generous participation, I was also given Mr Mjelde's email contact info. He just shared two images of "Glory of the Seas at San Pedro dock, 1907" One, a Bow close up detail is much clearer than that published in the book. According to Mr Mjelde, it's because this was a direct print of an original 35mm film negative processed 40 years ago! Usually I can reorient images to get them viewable better, in this case, I couldn't accomplish it until I cropped the image. So I've shared both. I commented to Mike, which he said he prefers to be called that I wanted to get his permission before sharing these rare images. His response is to be sure to credit him, that's all. He also voiced his full support for our efforts to create the most accurate plans possible for future would be modelers of McKay's last Clipper.

 

I've been following that email chain and I'm impressed as well....these close up images show exactly what you've been saying and nearly mimics my new corrected drawing of her.

 

Well done and many thanks to Mike and Arina for their wonderful aid.  Like we are co adventurers.  Surely Mike is credited for his many years of research.

 

Rob

[ClipperFan]

Rob

It occurs to me that the fellow who owns the rest of this venerable relic could possibly start his own small business, selling small sections of the original Clipper "Lightning." What McKay Clipper fanatic could resist a chance to own a piece of "Lightning?"

I have an original piece of the Frigate "Old Ironsides" removed during her last restoration. I bought it at the USS Constitution Gift Store and it came with papers. What amazes me is when I got it, I could smell salt water and oak wood, even though it's in a plastic bag container.

Then a few years ago I managed to get an original 1900s book on South Street Seaport, by Richard McKay I'm pretty sure. What's really neat is it has a small square sliver of wood from the Clipper "Glory of the Seas."

[druxey]

I wonder whether there are still enough pieces of The True Ship around to reconstitute her.... Just kidding!

[rwiederrich]

17 minutes ago, ClipperFan said:

Rob

It occurs to me that the fellow who owns the rest of this venerable relic could possibly start his own small business, selling small sections of the original Clipper "Lightning." What McKay Clipper fanatic could resist a chance to own a piece of "Lightning?"

I have an original piece of the Frigate "Old Ironsides" removed during her last restoration. I bought it at the USS Constitution Gift Store and it came with papers. What amazes me is when I got it, I could smell salt water and oak wood, even though it's in a plastic bag container.

Then a few years ago I managed to get an original 1900s book on South Street Seaport, by Richard McKay I'm pretty sure. What's really neat is it has a small square sliver of wood from the Clipper "Glory of the Seas."

 

I know...you showed that to me...and I was made green....Thanks!

Mike told me there were lots of souvenir seekers before she was set ablaze...who knows what relics still abound in closets and attics?

 

Rob

[rwiederrich]

12 minutes ago, druxey said:

I wonder whether there are still enough pieces of The True Ship around to reconstitute her.... Just kidding!

 

 

Only in the minds of the seriously committed....

And that too will take an extra application of vain imagination.

 

Rob

[ClipperFan]

This is probably the most significant "Lightning" relic, her alleged Figurehead. I've lightened her up a lot in order to reveal her details. Ironically, like Glory her right outstretched arm previously grasping lightning, is missing. This seems to be a phenomenon of ocean going vessels. Also barely visible are the end of the Naval Hood and Carved Arch. This confirms my strong suspicion that models of McKay's Clipper Bows have been greatly simplified. I see "Glory of the Seas" as a sort of 'Rosetta Stone' to finally reveal the full beauty of at least one of his magnificent ships. From her example, once satisfactorily determined, my personal goal is to accurately reconstruct many of McKay's lost glorious Clipper Ships.

[rwiederrich]

Fascinating image of Lightnings figurehead....

 

Finding some hulls that are of the *Medium* design, such as Glory..it isn't hard to see her own design among these two.

 

The top is the B.F. Hoxie and the lower the Garibaldi  the Glory mimics the Garibaldi with the slightly raked stem and sharp forefoot and tall sides.

Too many similarities.  Donald had to be running out of original ideas for her.

 

Rob

[ClipperFan]

1 hour ago, rwiederrich said:

Fascinating image of Lightnings figurehead....

 

Finding some hulls that are of the *Medium* design, such as Glory..it isn't hard to see her own design among these two.

 

The top is the B.F. Hoxie and the lower the Garibaldi  the Glory mimics the Garibaldi with the slightly raked stem and sharp forefoot and tall sides.

Too many similarities.  Donald had to be running out of original ideas for her.

 

Rob

Fascinating that both Medium Clippers came from Mystic Shipyards. 1855 Mystic Clipper BF Hoxie, 1387 tons, 1860 Mystic Garibaldi, 1431 tons. Both vessels were much smaller in size than Donald McKay's "Glory of the Seas" 2102 tons. It does look like if you melded the Bow of the top vessel with the Stern of the bottom it approximates Glory to a degree. Personally I favor the scientific method we've begun to develop. Combined with accurate measurements of the ship based on comparisons of her figurehead length with other components will lead us to the most complete reproduction. Incidentally the 22' yellow metal sheathing is in the highly description of Glory at her launch, most likely by Boston Daily Atlas writer Duncan McLean. 

[rwiederrich]

1 hour ago, ClipperFan said:

Fascinating that both Medium Clippers came from Mystic Shipyards. 1855 Mystic Clipper BF Hoxie, 1387 tons, 1860 Mystic Garibaldi, 1431 tons. Both vessels were much smaller in size than Donald McKay's "Glory of the Seas" 2102 tons. It does look like if you melded the Bow of the top vessel with the Stern of the bottom it approximates Glory to a degree. Personally I favor the scientific method we've begun to develop. Combined with accurate measurements of the ship based on comparisons of her figurehead length with other components will lead us to the most complete reproduction. Incidentally the 22' yellow metal sheathing is in the highly description of Glory at her launch, most likely by Boston Daily Atlas writer Duncan McLean. 

I agree. I was merely making an observation, comparing the models to Glory.  Not suggesting abandonment of our goal.    I also agree on your suggested notion of melding the two hulls, as you suggested.       Rob

[ClipperFan]

Michael Mjelde's 1970 publication "Glory of the Seas" Appendix 1 has the best, most highly detailed description of her in exhaustive detail. Page 257 describes that Glory was indeed metal sheathed 22' up to her waterline.

[ClipperFan]

17 hours ago, rwiederrich said:

Fascinating image of Lightnings figurehead....

 

Finding some hulls that are of the *Medium* design, such as Glory..it isn't hard to see her own design among these two.

 

The top is the B.F. Hoxie and the lower the Garibaldi  the Glory mimics the Garibaldi with the slightly raked stem and sharp forefoot and tall sides.

Too many similarities.  Donald had to be running out of original ideas for her.

 

Rob

Rob,

From an 1881 photo: Clipper 'Anni' formerly 'Garibaldi in Port, Mystic Seaport on line library image. Something I've noticed. Half hulls usually don't include the ship's cutwater, figurehead, monkey rail or keel. Compare this picture to her half Hull and you get the idea. Besides, I thought you'd appreciate another image of an 1860s American Clipper.

[rwiederrich]

Beautiful image Rich.  Yes the final vessel can look different then the builders hull model.

Rob

[Sailor1234567890]

What are the "pointers" referred to in that appendix? Anyone know? I've never heard of pointers as part of a ship. Is there another name for pointers that I might recognize? 

[rwiederrich]

17 minutes ago, Sailor1234567890 said:

What are the "pointers" referred to in that appendix? Anyone know? I've never heard of pointers as part of a ship. Is there another name for pointers that I might recognize? 

 

 

I was pondering that myself..Since there are bolts and hooks associated with it.  Further research is in order here I gather.

 

Rob

[rwiederrich]

On 2/5/2021 at 7:12 PM, ClipperFan said:

Rob,

I almost forgot, you're welcome. I love finding these really neat publications. Often, especially in the 50s & 60s books geared towards younger audiences have some surprisingly rare photos, paintings and ship's blueprints.

I don't know if you've ever heard of this but I just ordered it. "Around in the Glory: Chronicle of the 42nd Voyage of 'Glory of the Seas' around Cape Horn" by the ship's captain Daniel McLaughlin. Description says it's illustrated. If it contains any new images, I will certainly share them.

 

I first shopped for that at the web site recommended...but it was sold out from under me.  Then I looked everywhere and no body had it....GRRRRRRR.

Today I found a site in Canada that has one copy.  The book/pamphlet is really reasonable....but the shipping is more then the book itself.....

 

I had to have it for my library...so I threw my greenbacks down on the barrelhead and got it.

 

Rob

[ClipperFan]

Pointers may be diagonal riders that extend across the hull to prevent hogging of the keel. I'm not sure, just an educated guess. There's a fascinating article in a National Geographic Magazine about these massive riders being reinstalled in the Frigate USS Constitution 'Old Ironsides' once it was confirmed that these devices were originally installed at her construction. 

[ClipperFan]

23 minutes ago, ClipperFan said:

Pointers may be diagonal riders that extend across the hull to prevent hogging of the keel. I'm not sure, just an educated guess. There's a fascinating article in a National Geographic Magazine about these massive riders being reinstalled in the Frigate USS Constitution 'Old Ironsides' once it was confirmed that these devices were originally installed at her construction. 

I googled "Maritime terminology of Pointer in wooden sailing vessels and found "Schooner Comet a submerged national resource, pdf file. Page 50 illustrates "Pointers" which are indeed diagonal structures to reinforce the Bow structure.

[ClipperFan]

6 minutes ago, ClipperFan said:

I googled "Maritime terminology of Pointer in wooden sailing vessels and found "Schooner Comet a submerged national resource, pdf file. Page 50 illustrates "Pointers" which are indeed diagonal structures to reinforce the Bow structure.

If anyone can instruct me how to add a pdf file, I saved a copy and can share the file. It's really a neat publication of the National Park Service full of detailed sketches which enumerates each structural component.

[rwiederrich]

2 hours ago, ClipperFan said:

Pointers may be diagonal riders that extend across the hull to prevent hogging of the keel. I'm not sure, just an educated guess. There's a fascinating article in a National Geographic Magazine about these massive riders being reinstalled in the Frigate USS Constitution 'Old Ironsides' once it was confirmed that these devices were originally installed at her construction. 

 

Here is what a *rider* is.  It simply reinforces the frame across the keel.

 

Rob

[druxey]

To confirm: pointers were X oriented diagonal braces across the ship's hull, popular in the 16th and 17th centuries. However, they cut down on space in the hold. Riders replaced these.

[rwiederrich]

The pointers reference diagonally crossing the cant's  Cant timbers were found for and aft   namely perpendicular to the keel....so the pointers  and  hooks are to reinforce the forward and aft structures.   Here is an example from Crother's book *The American built Clipper ship*.

 

Rob

[rwiederrich]

Glory had additional cross timbers between her upper hanging knees...this could have aided in preventing lateral shifting.