Glory of the Seas 1869 by rwiederrich - FINISHED - 1/96 - medium clipper

[rwiederrich]

36 minutes ago, Gregory said:

Sorry I'm  late to this discussion, but when I see the pictures of this ship, and consider it is a "medium "  clipper, what is an example of a " large " clipper?   

Hi…..

Medium doesn’t equate to size, but design.  Extreme denotes  the extreme clipper design,  by a sharp entry and exit, focusing on speed qualities,Not cargo carrying ability.  Medium implies more cargo carrying ability over speed.

[Tony Hunt]

"Medium" refers to the fineness of the hull form, not the size. As opposed to an "extreme" clipper.

[ClipperFan]

55 minutes ago, Gregory said:

Sorry I'm  late to this discussion, but when I see the pictures of this ship, and consider it is a "medium "  clipper, what is an example of a " large " clipper?   

Greg, since "GLORY of the SEAS" had a published keel of 240' a length between perpendiculars of 250' and from Stern Taffrail to Bow Knightheads an overall length of 265' then add in a Bowsprit of 24' outboard & combined 31' additional inner & outer Jib for an additional 55' she was a huge vessel. "Medium Clipper" refers to her classification as to her Hull's potential speed in the water mainly related to the underwater pitch at "Half Hull".

In Glory's case she was the flattest of any of McKay's Clippers with a Half Hull of a mere 8 & 1/2".

Compare that to McKay's first Extreme Clipper "Staghound" which had a Half Hull of 40". In fact some maritime authors I've read say McKay's first Clipper was his only "Extreme" one.

His second effort, the record shattering Extreme Clipper "Flying Cloud" had a flatter Hull, with a Half Hull of 30". Gradually McKay kept making his Half Hulls flatter as he searched for the ultimate balance between swift underwater Hulls and increased carrying capacity.

So I guess Clippers were categorized three ways: Extreme Clipper, Clipper and lastly Medium Clipper. Of course a lot of this is subjective but there never was a classification of "Large Clipper" though McKay built some of the largest in the world.

What I see in the brilliance of McKay's last "Medium Clipper" was he created a magnificent vessel with sharp very fine Clipper Hull entrances and exits while having very substantial carrying capacity too.

Edited July 17, 2021 by ClipperFan
Grammar correction

[Gregory]

Thanks for all the info...

[ClipperFan]

1 hour ago, Gregory said:

Thanks for all the info...

Gregory, on behalf of Rob's group, you're welcome!

[rwiederrich]

Spent a bit of time working on laying the deck.  Here are some images with the support beams to hold the deck trim and snug...they will be removed when dry.

[rwiederrich]

The deck was painted with a light brown..then the paint was rubbed off and then sanded.  The paint remained in the deck pleats and gave the necessary aesthetics.

[rwiederrich]

I then flipper her over and prepped for the other side.

 

That will have to wait most likely till I return from a visit to North Dakota.  I'll be gone for a week....Till then enjoy and see ya !

[Tony Hunt]

The deck looks really good. Interesting that you've laid it entire - I assume you're going to cut in the hatches and other deck openings later?

[Vladimir_Wairoa]

Rob deck is fantastic ! 

[ClipperFan]

Rob, of course I completely agree with Vladimir about the impressive quality of you deck work. Fantastic! 

I am curious about your procedure. Are these each long slats that you glued down and then press fit your 'formers' to hold in place? I'd love to hear more about this process. Of course it can wait until your return from North Dakota. Have a safe and pleasant trip.

[ClipperFan]

2 hours ago, Tony Hunt said:

The deck looks really good. Interesting that you've laid it entire - I assume you're going to cut in the hatches and other deck openings later?

Tony Hunt my estimation is that Rob won't cut in anything. Rather he'll glue all deck furniture directly onto the deck itself. Since he's chosen her later period, as seen in Michael Mjelde's first book 'Glory of the Seas' it will be a very busy and full deck once he's done. Rob's will continue to be a fascinating and impressive build. I can't wait!

[Vladimir_Wairoa]

Rich, Rob would you mind guys a shed a little light about outer moldings and ornamental colors? 

i admit i am a bit confused myself feom various photographs seems to me well of course for each captain all splendor was individual if i remember correctly from Michaels book.

speaking of it ahead of planking which is going to happen very soon! i spoke today with guy from czech republic ( funny i get magerial from another country but thats just best shipmodel shop i know off in nearby europe though:)) it might help me to decide overall picture of the ship. 

as Rob stressed probably first is to be determine timelap to where the ship is to be buidl ! well at ghis point im not even sure i will mast it because im set on spending this winter again drawing houses and deck instalation on computer and than laser cut  it etc.... so, just from  my persepctive - i must admit apart of beautiful golden leaves, i like myself also subl almost "no splendor of simpel uncolored or water splashed color? im not sure wood as seen on various photographs also with outer sheerlines uncolored ...well its b&w pictures but i assume white would contrast to the point it would be clearly visible on bw photographs...headache headache:))) 

[rwiederrich]

6 hours ago, Tony Hunt said:

The deck looks really good. Interesting that you've laid it entire - I assume you're going to cut in the hatches and other deck openings later?

IMV...removing material is always easier then trying to add back what you just removed.  Every thing is aligned and to scale.

 

Thanks for peekin in.

 

Rob

[ClipperFan]

2 hours ago, Vladimir_Wairoa said:

Rich, Rob would you mind guys a shed a little light about outer moldings and ornamental colors? 

i admit i am a bit confused myself feom various photographs seems to me well of course for each captain all splendor was individual if i remember correctly from Michaels book.

speaking of it ahead of planking which is going to happen very soon! i spoke today with guy from czech republic ( funny i get magerial from another country but thats just best shipmodel shop i know off in nearby europe though:)) it might help me to decide overall picture of the ship. 

as Rob stressed probably first is to be determine timelap to where the ship is to be buidl ! well at ghis point im not even sure i will mast it because im set on spending this winter again drawing houses and deck instalation on computer and than laser cut  it etc.... so, just from  my persepctive - i must admit apart of beautiful golden leaves, i like myself also subl almost "no splendor of simpel uncolored or water splashed color? im not sure wood as seen on various photographs also with outer sheerlines uncolored ...well its b&w pictures but i assume white would contrast to the point it would be clearly visible on bw photographs...headache headache:))) 

Vladimir, all I do to ease your concerns about authenticity is rely on the published details, as few there are from contemporary descriptions and paintings of "GLORY of the SEAS."

Duncan MacLean while employed by the Boston Daily Atlas apparently was more of what we today refer to as a publicist. I doubt he arrived at all his very detailed descriptions of the many Clipper Ships he described by actually measuring them out. It's far more likely he was given highly detailed specs by the Shipyards themselves. Likewise he also gave great details about how these great vessels were decorated, even to describing interior fittings as well as selections of paint colors. 

When she was launched in 1869, her paint scheme was described in MacLeans announcement. Exterior  from top down to where she as clad in yellow metal, she was black. From all visual sources even the moldings appear to be uniformly black. As an aside, just due to the intense activity of a working ship, I suspect, but have no proof, her topmost molding might have been left natural varnnished and polished wood. As for gold leaf embellishment, whenever I looked at her 1869 scene on the ways, I always figured that all 3 rail moldings would originally have been 24kt gold leaf. That would include both upper & lower Naval Hood moldings as well as the single ropeline molding of the arched Cutwater. This lovely, expensive embellishment would of course terminate at the base of the Naval Hoods. That's my impression of how her impressive Bow would have been originally decorated. From a design aesthetic it just looks more complete that way.

As for her Grecian Goddess 'Athene' figurehead, which has been referred to as the epitome of such carvings, again, this is entirely subjective but besides being painted overall white, I believe she was also gold leaf embellished. She has a modest crown at the tip of her forehead, a fairly impressive necklace and two bracelets. Besides that, if you look very closely you'll see her gown also has thin double lines near the very bottom. It has been known that such items on other Clippers were highlighted with gold leaf trim. There was also quite elaborate & impressive gold leaf embossed carving that went clearly around the Stern up and over her great lettering. A small amount of it is barely visible on her Stern Quarter.

Her Bowsprit and probably the inner portion of her Jibboom inside the cap was most likely black, with the outboard portion of the Flying Jibboom being varnished, polished natural wood.

Her interior recessed areas were pearl, relieved with white, which to me means the raised bulkheads. Her waterways were blue but it doesn't say if that was light or dark blue. Contrasting to pearl, it makes sense it would be more towards the lighter side. 

[rwiederrich]

4 hours ago, ClipperFan said:

Rob, of course I completely agree with Vladimir about the impressive quality of you deck work. Fantastic! 

I am curious about your procedure. Are these each long slats that you glued down and then press fit your 'formers' to hold in place? I'd love to hear more about this process. Of course it can wait until your return from North Dakota. Have a safe and pleasant trip.

No that is OK....I actually don't leave till Wednesday....but I have far too many things to do till then, that model building is probably not one of them.  If you ask my wife.

 

My technique is simple and rather expeditious. After the deck piece is cut...I use contact cement to glue it down.  It aint going no where.  What the bracing is for is to hold the trim against the waterway snugly while it dries.  They simply press against the opposite side and hold the beam in place nicely.  When dry, just slip them away and when ready, reuse them for the other side.

 

In this scale I use pre scribed sheet decking.  It is to scale...clean, perfectly aligned and most importantly...FAST, when applied correctly.

 

I laid decking for my Clipper Western Shore model using single planks and it took a while...plus sanding it, to make it smooth and even took skill...to prevent any damage to the bulwarks (what a pain).   This technique allows me to paint and sand the deck off model, which permits a very clean result quickly.

 

As you may have noticed...if you have followed any of my other builds, is that I am not interested in the atypical processes...it is the finished product that matters to me, NOT what material lies under the paint, or what slick trick was used to by-pass tedious work.

 

Thanks for the fine comments.

 

Rob

[rwiederrich]

26 minutes ago, ClipperFan said:

Her interior recessed areas were pearl, relieved with white, which to me means the raised bulkheads. Her waterways were blue but it doesn't say if that was light or dark blue. Contrasting to pearl, it makes sense it would be more towards the lighter side. 

I muddled over this myself.  Knowing that perception is everything...deciphering what, *painted pearl, relieved with white* means was a challenge.

Modelers license permits me to actually paint as I see fit(with some direction...blue waterways).

 

But as you describe....*what color of blue*?   I've seen models with dark blue waterways and others with light blue(Mine included).

IMV light blue transitions better to the pearl/white....hence my choice.

 

All said and done....if one was to paint their model in a weathered fashion(such as I).....the paint would take on an entirely different character.  Weathering actually releases you from the scrutiny of exactness....since the *HINT* of what it might have looked like is covered up with the natural grime and distortion of every day use.   My coat of arms.....

 

Rob

 

[ClipperFan]

Vladimir, since Rob is modeling his craft in her later years, grime and all, including larger extended rear Wheelhouse, my request would be that your model be of her as first launched with smaller Wheelhouse but all shiny and new? If so, it appears all of her turned rail stanchions and railing both around her Stern and carriage house appear to be painted white. The later scene, as so gloriously painted by Samuel Walters shows the railing to be white but all stanchions to be varnished natural wood. As for all her Houses, again it sounds like the recessed areas were pearl, relieved with white, which to me means the raised areas. The Colonial pearl shade I found makes it look like this was probably a very elegant look. Duncan MacLean describes her sides as being smooth as polished glass. That would be quite lovely to see and a dramatic contrast to the later version Rob is constructing. Of course, this is all left to your personal choice, I'm just letting you know my request.

Also, as far as masting, rigging or sails, might I suggest you take those choices one step at a time? One of the most impressive aspects of this massive vessel was her very lofty spars. When you see her docked in San Francisco, you hardly notice her lovely Hull for the towering masts.

Another fact which blew me away is I was recently reading about the world's oldest commissioned Warship USS Constitution and was somewhat shocked to discover that "Old Ironsides" described as a Super Frigate back in 1797 when she was launched, has a much shorter keel than "GLORY of the SEAS!" The keel for USS Constitution is 204' while that of Glory was 240'. Imagine if somehow History could have seen Donald McKay's final masterpiece somehow saved and restored.... these two magnificent sea faring vessels side by side would have been quite a sight to see. Ironically the 1800s Frigate would have been dwarfed by the substantially larger 1900s Merchant vessel!

Edited July 19, 2021 by ClipperFan
additional information

[Vladimir_Wairoa]

1 hour ago, ClipperFan said:

Vladimir, all I do to ease your concerns about authenticity is rely on the published details, as few there are from contemporary descriptions and paintings of "GLORY of the SEAS."

Duncan MacLean while employed by the Boston Daily Atlas apparently was more of what we today refer to as a publicist. I doubt he arrived at all his very detailed descriptions of the many Clipper Ships he described by actually measuring them out. It's far more likely he was given highly detailed specs by the Shipyards themselves. Likewise he also gave great details about how these great vessels were decorated, even to describing interior fittings as well as selections of paint colors. 

When she was launched in 1869, her paint scheme was described in MacLeans announcement. Exterior  from top down to where she as clad in yellow metal, she was black. From all visual sources even the moldings appear to be uniformly black. As an aside, just due to the intense activity of a working ship, I suspect, but have no proof, her topmost molding might have been left natural varnnished and polished wood. As for gold leaf embellishment, whenever I looked at her 1869 scene on the ways, I always figured that all 3 rail moldings would originally have been 24kt gold leaf. That would include both upper & lower Naval Hood moldings as well as the single ropeline molding of the arched Cutwater. This lovely, expensive embellishment would of course terminate at the base of the Naval Hoods. That's my impression of how her impressive Bow would have been originally decorated. From a design aesthetic it just looks more complete that way.

As for her Grecian Goddess 'Athene' figurehead, which has been referred to as the epitome of such carvings, again, this is entirely subjective but besides being painted overall white, I believe she was also gold leaf embellished. She has a modest crown at the tip of her forehead, a fairly impressive necklace and two bracelets. Besides that, if you look very closely you'll see her gown also has thin double lines near the very bottom. It has been known that such items on other Clippers were highlighted with gold leaf trim. There was also quite elaborate & impressive gold leaf embossed carving that went clearly around the Stern up and over her great lettering. A small amount of it is barely visible on her Stern Quarter.

Her Bowsprit and probably the inner portion of her Jibboom inside the cap was most likely black, with the outboard portion of the Flying Jibboom being varnished, polished natural wood.

Her interior recessed areas were pearl, relieved with white, which to me means the raised bulkheads. Her waterways were blue but it doesn't say if that was light or dark blue. Contrasting to pearl, it makes sense it would be more towards the lighter side. 

Oh Rich, you make it all simple for us with encyclopedic knowledge i feel sometimes guilty as using this up without making effort to study those things myself - or read them up from books. well anyway, this is the say i will put the coat on! I love idea molding being black with golden entrance and upper rail natura varnished. Hay ho! Not that far as of now as my planks  are on the way to me! by the way, guys, i settled on this- I decided to plank her as close to origina las possible ( but not entirely) meaning i will use 3 mm wide planks ( 2.44mm woudl be original thicknees as of 1:72 scale. from sheer downwards approx half of vessel where i would continue with 5 mm for fact i will cover it with yellow metal replication. i hope after sanding those aoudl  be good enough to paint finally black. 

[Vladimir_Wairoa]

1 hour ago, rwiederrich said:

I muddled over this myself.  Knowing that perception is everything...deciphering what, *painted pearl, relieved with white* means was a challenge.

Modelers license permits me to actually paint as I see fit(with some direction...blue waterways).

 

But as you describe....*what color of blue*?   I've seen models with dark blue waterways and others with light blue(Mine included).

IMV light blue transitions better to the pearl/white....hence my choice.

 

All said and done....if one was to paint their model in a weathered fashion(such as I).....the paint would take on an entirely different character.  Weathering actually releases you from the scrutiny of exactness....since the *HINT* of what it might have looked like is covered up with the natural grime and distortion of every day use.   My coat of arms.....

 

Rob

 

youre right Rob. as we are utterly different I naturally lean towards her photograph at yeard even almost before compeltion... my choice is clean colors as possible.  

[ClipperFan]

1 hour ago, Vladimir_Wairoa said:

Oh Rich, you make it all simple for us with encyclopedic knowledge i feel sometimes guilty as using this up without making effort to study those things myself - or read them up from books. well anyway, this is the say i will put the coat on! I love idea molding being black with golden entrance and upper rail natura varnished. Hay ho! Not that far as of now as my planks  are on the way to me! by the way, guys, i settled on this- I decided to plank her as close to origina las possible ( but not entirely) meaning i will use 3 mm wide planks ( 2.44mm woudl be original thicknees as of 1:72 scale. from sheer downwards approx half of vessel where i would continue with 5 mm for fact i will cover it with yellow metal replication. i hope after sanding those aoudl  be good enough to paint finally black. 

Vladimir, we all have our strengths and weaknesses. I have been fascinated with Clipper Ships in general for many, many years. With "GLORY of the SEAS" alone, it's been over a dozen. I've read and reread most if not all of the wonderful descriptions of these magnificent vessels from Lars Bruzelius's generous website. Most of them are from the rather loquacious Duncan MacLean's Boston Daily Atlas writings. It constantly amazes me how he always seems to straight faced claim that each Clipper he reviews is best in class. However his details are priceless. It's also why I know for a fact that most, if not all (with the single exception of the "Great Republic") of the contemporary models of Donald McKay's magnificent Clipper Ships are inaccurate, especially when it comes to the Bow. Some day I intend to share my findings to correct these oversights.

One the other hand, while I became quite adept as a youth at building plastic models. They were all done with careful hand brushing but no airbrush work. My one attempt, decades ago to construct a solid wooden Hull Swift "Ferret" ended up so disappointing that I put the project away...

[rwiederrich]

2 hours ago, Vladimir_Wairoa said:

youre right Rob. as we are utterly different I naturally lean towards her photograph at yeard even almost before compeltion... my choice is clean colors as possible.  

I like that idea.  My first build of her was as she was originally constructed by McKay.....but because she had sucha lengthy life and plenty of mods....any time frame of her will be accurate.  I just want to choose the busier time frame...the one with the most mods.  I still have my original for comparisons....

 

Rob

[Vladimir_Wairoa]

31 minutes ago, rwiederrich said:

I like that idea.  My first build of her was as she was originally constructed by McKay.....but because she had sucha lengthy life and plenty of mods....any time frame of her will be accurate.  I just want to choose the busier time frame...the one with the most mods.  I still have my original for comparisons....

 

Rob

I like Also idea being actually very far from that. Speaking of - ID be Happy to finish hull deck planking, bowsprit and outer stanchions by end of year. Than i Can put a flag and celebrate with famous photo  I would like to start studying decko houses around autumn, but watching yours ahead and what we hlave in amichaels books i think  it Will be great help and much easier than hull construction...:) If i event put masts on her, im sure IT Will be composite so ..probably not latest éra...i Wish spending more tíme on houses detaile as possible as could be dome similar as with cutty but this tíme more properly. I eant to také really slow pace with her...this tíme

Edited July 19, 2021 by Vladimir_Wairoa
Add

[rwiederrich]

12 minutes ago, Vladimir_Wairoa said:

I like Also idea being actually very far from that. Speaking of - ID be Happy to finish hull deck planking, bowsprit and outer stanchions by end of year. Than i Can put a flag and celebrate with famous photo  I would like to start studying decko houses around autumn, but watching yours ahead and what we hlave in amichaels books i think  it Will be great help and much easier than hull construction...:) If i event put masts on her, im sure IT Will be composite so ..probably not latest éra...i Wish spending more tíme on houses detaile as possible as could be dome similar as with cutty but this tíme more properly. I eant to také really slow pace with her...this tíme

I'm with you.  Personally I tend not to set dates for myself.  I tend to have long periods of silence then moments of sheer construction madness.

I will be making composite lower masts for my version....I think that was a significant detail and I want to mimic that.  I have identified so many more details that I will be incorporating in this version that I failed to do on my last version.

I also plan to fully mast her and rig her....but probably without sails this time.  We'll wait and see.

 

Rob

[Vladimir_Wairoa]

15 minutes ago, rwiederrich said:

I'm with you.  Personally I tend not to set dates for myself.  I tend to have long periods of silence then moments of sheer construction madness.

I will be making composite lower masts for my version....I think that was a significant detail and I want to mimic that.  I have identified so many more details that I will be incorporating in this version that I failed to do on my last version.

I also plan to fully mast her and rig her....but probably without sails this time.  We'll wait and see.

 

Rob

 I work similarly. sometimes not sometimes when having time. good news Rob. Just got message from parcel that my planks are heading to me. looks like this week finally . yay ! 

[rwiederrich]

7 minutes ago, Vladimir_Wairoa said:

 I work similarly. sometimes not sometimes when having time. good news Rob. Just got message from parcel that my planks are heading to me. looks like this week finally . yay ! 

Good news....Now I can fill the bowl with buttery popcorn and take a seat.

 

Rob

[Vladimir_Wairoa]

3 minutes ago, rwiederrich said:

Good news....Now I can fill the bowl with buttery popcorn and take a seat.

 

Rob

youre welcome. though i am a bit scared when seeing that avatar of yours looking with unforgiving determination !  

[rwiederrich]

26 minutes ago, Vladimir_Wairoa said:

youre welcome. though i am a bit scared when seeing that avatar of yours looking with unforgiving determination !  

Well lets go then sir......now you know how far the bar is set....😎

 

He stares at me everyday.....I'm a nervous wreck.....🤪

[rwiederrich]

What size was the cargo port…….Rich?

[ClipperFan]

13 minutes ago, rwiederrich said:

What size was the cargo port…….Rich?

Rob, it's much easier to get accurate scale dimensions for your project. As I told Vladimir, I'm very confident that the cargo port's side accounts for exactly 4 strakes, as seen from a clear enough 1869 image of Glory on the Ways. According to the MacLean construction details, each strake was 6 1/2". That makes the cargo port's side 26". Since it's wider than it's tall, I estimated the cargo port width as 3'. To scale that's a smidge above 1/4" high (2'2") and exactly 3/8ths wide (3').