US Brig Syren by Redshadowrider - Model Shipways - Scale 1:64 - First wooden ship build

[Justin P.]

Making quick progress.   Think long and hard about those treenails...  in my opinion they are a delicate detail that can make or break a finish - and ones patience!

[WalrusGuy]

I agree with Justin. Try it out on a sample before attempting on the model. For mine I used toothpicks (each individually sanded to be more pointy). Back then it felt like the entire process was never going to end!! 

 

Also, applying tung oil to the wood with the inserted treenails allowed for the oil to be soaked into the grain edge of the toothpicks giving a nice darker finish than the rest of the planks

[Overworked724]

Takes forever...binge watching Netflix helps. It’s practice for coppering the hull. 🤣

[Redshadowrider]

@Overworked724 I reread your process and just missed the 20 gauge needle part.  I did get the map pin ground down tip though...  😀

 

It's Waling Time!:    

 

   

NO.....not that.....

 

 

THIS:  I am doing what each of you have suggested and thinking over the treenail part.  I will do a test run with scrap material to see if I will continue planning them.  In the mean time, I have the wales to add and am wondering if I should sand the hull before adding?  I have done some in the area where the 3 wales will be attached, but it is not finish sanding by any means.  Just enough to smoothly support the wale planks.  As you can see, I did mark the bulkheads in anticipation of adding the tree nails.  Between Covid and Winter, I got time.  

[Redshadowrider]

Heads or Nails

i have been mulling over the possibility of not adding the tree nails to this build.  The more I think about it, the more I come to the conclusion that the time spent is worth it.  Maybe I will settle on using wood filler, but I do have an x-y table on the way and some soft wood blocks from plane building that will work well for making wood nails.  If your reservations on adding them is just the tedious process, I am not concerned.  If it is my skill level, then feel free to explain the difficulties I will encounter.  I can take it......  🤪

[Overworked724]

I say go for it. It’s your build!  But I do agree that you should make some trial nails as well as trial swatches of planks to get the rythm  and work out kinks. 

Another thing to consider is ensuring you can reproducibly drill the trunnel holes without issue. So that’s the other half...Tamiya tape and an awl is what I used to premark the holes. But everyone needs to refine their techniques. 👍🏽

Edited November 19, 2020 by Overworked724

[Redshadowrider]

I have multiple pin vises, and sets of mini drill bits.  And a jewelers visor with 4 different magnifications for close in work.  I do agree that testing is a must.  I plan on a Tung oil finish and by using some of the different wood I have.  I need to test as much for final outcome of the finish as much as anything.  And I still need a tiny tiny hammer.  😂
 

i am not touching the model until I know I can do it.

Edited November 19, 2020 by Redshadowrider

[Redshadowrider]

A Waling We Will Go:  

 

I have added both the port and starboard wales and have done some minor sanding clean up  I have not installed the hull strake as I have yet to decide if I am going with tree nails or not.  If I go ahead with the tree nailing, I do not want to have this in the way while trying to clip and sand the tree nails.  The more I look at the width of the planks (1/8"), I am wondering if I should pursue it.  Something that I did was to run the pencil for the caulking along the corner of each plank, rather than fully across the width.  What that means is that in some planks, you can sand through the pencil line and it starts to disappear.  Maybe the tung oil will bring it back out, but won't know till I apply it.  Otherwise, it is cleaning up pretty well  😀

[Overworked724]

I do the same....run it along the edge.  The line is still there...the tung oil will make it pop!

 

 

[Redshadowrider]

Thanks @Overworked724

 

I am itching to get some Tung oil on this, but I gotta test the nails first.  What I have to do is see if I can drill, fill, or add a tree nail before I move on.  I have to see if my vision and hand eye coordination is still there for the detail stuff.  Here is a picture of my latest detail work in the red and white plane I showed earlier.  I can’t take credit for the dials, but it all came in a kit and the faces had to be cut from a sheet of dials.  I used a T pin to puncture the outer rims, multiple times.  
 

(Will add a pic when I get to the right media.). ......LOL made it.

 

 

Edited November 20, 2020 by Redshadowrider

[Overworked724]

Many people use a pin vise for drilling - I use a handheld rotary (engraving) tool (my build log post #71).  I don't think I've ever used a pin vise.

 

The way I make trunnel holes is using Tamiya tape to make a solid edge (line) to mark where I want to holes to line up.  Then I use a pin which is mounted in a dowel as an awl to premark the spot for the drill.  Then I stick in my micro drill bit and drill away.  Pretty relaxing drilling the holes...

 

Either way - I think your build is looking great!

[Redshadowrider]

Thanks for the compliment, and the tape idea.  What I am going to need to test thoroughly, is the placement of the tree nails in the holes.  I am pretty sure I will be able to do it.  In the picture that I posted, you can see the small screws that are holding the instruments in.  Each one had to be glued in separately.

[Redshadowrider]

In Every Build:  

 

There comes a time when "everything in its place" isn't. 😀   Usually when I get to a convenient pause in building activity, I take my mess and organize it back to where I started.  Over time, files, sanding boards, pencils, and just everything in general get tossed out of the way.  I might be holding a part, trying to balance something, or similar, and I just put the tool down where there is a spot.  Sooooo.....   today is that day.

 

The x-y table and 20 ga needles will be here tomorrow, or Monday.  So I am taking a breather and took the time to straighten out my bench.  It still looks like a mess, but it is an organized one and I know where things are.  😃 

 

Building to resume with tree nails when I have the stuff to do them.

 

 

[Redshadowrider]

Instructions Question:

It says in the printed instructions that the waterline is marked in the plan.  I have been looking, but I want to make sure I am looking at the right place.  On Plan 1, there are dotted lines at the bow and the stern that appear to mark the end points.  Is that the plan #, and the correct indicators?

 

 

[Redshadowrider]

Makin' Nails in the Rain.....  Its gotta be a song.  😀  

 

@Overworked724@WalrusGuy@Justin P.

 Well, I got the chance to make nails today.  It's crappy weather, COVID, and College Football affecting my day.  This morning, the mini x-y table, and the 20 ga needles arrived and i went to work.  Setting up the press, sanding the needle for a clean cut, and mounting it in the press.  You can see that making the nails, once the equipment is ready, is quite easy.  And I was able to insert the nail in the hole drilled into the plank, glue it in, cut and sand it as well.  The pictures pretty much tell the story.  

I am going to do testing as that first drilled hole, with the tung oil, does pop out, but the hole is somewhat rough on the edges.  I think it is from the pin vise drill and the low speed I had with the bit by only hand drilling it.  In my testing, I will use the dremel for drilling.  I have the flexible extension, so I won't have to use the motor end. However, I am looking at some of the micro engravers, like Overworked used.  

 

 

 

 

[Overworked724]

Looking good!  I think you’ll find the micro-engraver I use is ideal. It’s not cordless, but that’s really not an issue. It’s light, thin, and very easy to adjust speed. I use it for everything. 👍🏽
 

The one I use also works with Dremel collets so you can adjust the engraver to fit even the tiniest drill bit. If you don’t have a  collet assortment, you can order them on amazon for like 6$. 
 

Using the engraver with a mini drill bit will give you clean holes, but it will cut wood like butter...so you need to practice so you don’t pierce a bulkhead wall!!!  🤣

Edited November 21, 2020 by Overworked724

[Justin P.]

When I do treenails, IF I do treenails its almost always with a pinvise...   slower but more accurate I find.  Those power tools always backfire on me in one way or another, but good luck!   Very curious about your core job there...   what are the bits you are using, did I miss that in your log somewhere?

[Overworked724]

1 hour ago, Justin P. said:

When I do treenails, IF I do treenails its almost always with a pinvise...   slower but more accurate I find.  Those power tools always backfire on me in one way or another, but good luck!   Very curious about your core job there...   what are the bits you are using, did I miss that in your log somewhere?

@Justin P. A lot of folks in my ship model club use pinvises. I could never get use to them. Think it a matter of what you are comfy with!  
 

The tree nail process is described in my Syren build log (Post #251). 

Edited November 22, 2020 by Overworked724

[abelson]

On 11/11/2020 at 11:54 AM, Redshadowrider said:

What to do, what to do?   

As you can see from the picture, the exact curve of the transom is not exactly a match to the plank on the counter.  My question is do I just shape the transom to match the plank, or modify the plank to match the curve?  My thought is that it is much easier to match the transom to the planking, and I don't think it will throw anything off, but before I do, I thought I should ask.

 

I was able to get the lintels and sills on the gun ports to fit correctly, and they are now level to each other.

 

Your build is coming along nicely. Regarding the transom,  to avoid the problem curve, I trimmed the first counter plank (5/32” x 1/16”) to match the transom. I beveled the edge of the 5/32” plank that will abut the 1/8” x 1/16” plank.  The transom edge is already beveled. I know this is an after thought, but it may be helpful to others following your build. Keep up the good work and persevere.

[Redshadowrider]

8 hours ago, Justin P. said:

When I do treenails, IF I do treenails its almost always with a pinvise...   slower but more accurate I find.  Those power tools always backfire on me in one way or another, but good luck!   Very curious about your core job there...   what are the bits you are using, did I miss that in your log somewhere?

@Justin P. Not sure which bits you are asking about.  If it is the wood type for the tree nails, I just grabbed a piece of wood I had on hand.  Just let me know and I will be happy to respond...just haven’t had my coffee yet..   ☕️

[VTHokiEE]

17 hours ago, Redshadowrider said:

mini x-y table

What is your opinion of that table? I’ve stared at them more than a few times but they seem to good to be true (which is probably more a function of expectations).

 

Nice work on those tree nails! That seems like a very nice method.

[Redshadowrider]

Regarding the mini x-y table, I am impressed.  For the price, it is worth money, albeit not a heavy duty table.  It’s features, and quality are quite surprising for the price.  If you are considering it, there is an unboxing video on you tube that sums it up better than I could.  I do, however, consider it to be a light duty tool.

Edited November 22, 2020 by Redshadowrider

[Overworked724]

I agree. Love mine...turns your drill press into a mini milling machine!

Edited November 22, 2020 by Overworked724

[VTHokiEE]

23 minutes ago, Overworked724 said:

turns your drill press into a mini milling machine!

Ha, well I might need one of those as well. I’ve been window shopping my options 😁. Glad to hear that it handles light work well. 

[Redshadowrider]

Testing Results:

I have completed 4 different examples of tree nail builds shown below.  I would be interested in knowing which you think is best?

(Funny, in the pictures, they look pretty much the same.)

 

1.  Done using natural wood filler.

2.  Using a sharpened pencil to outline the holes.

3.  Using the tree nails that I made with the drill press and needle.

4.  Using the tree nails from the press, and staining the nails in cherry wood stain.

 

Picture 1 is with 1 coat of tung oil, and picture 2 is with 3 coats of tung oil.

 

 

 

Edited November 23, 2020 by Redshadowrider

[ccoyle]

I'm one of those "no treenails" advocates, so take this advice accordingly. 😉  For models that do have treenails, the biggest turn-offs for me are a.) treenails not aligned properly, and b.) treenails too dark (producing a model that looks like it has the pox). So on the basis of color alone, I would choose #1 -- but I'd choose a filler (or stain) that is even lighter.

[Redshadowrider]

The point I am getting to is similar.  The instructions indicate a 0.55 drill for the holes, and I even dropped down 1 size.  Looking at the scale, it appears like one tree nail would occupy over 1/4 of a single plank.  That seems too big for me.  I am considering just doing the decking only, but have time to change my mind. 
 

BTW:  Number 1 has been my choice as well.

[Overworked724]

Hi Red

 

As a treenail advocate (😆) I tend to go for broke and say "Do your thang!"  In truth, the use of putty filler makes me nervous.  I've seen putty not press in deep enough, and upon sanding, can end up giving you gaps/pop outs/empty holes, especially after sanding.  Also - it's a mess.  I like the cleanness of a simply nail, once trimmed and sanded, it will not come out, and will give a warm look.  It could also be I just suck as using putty for nails...I've tried, but it didn't look very good.

 

I think a softer look is better as it keep the model from looking like it has freckles. You can accomplish this in a number of ways, but as you are using a light wood, a light stain on the nails/wood will makes the nails clearly visible but not overwhelming.   Also, over time as the stain dries, the effect of the nails standing out will soften.  So I lean towards #3.

 

Whatever your choice, I find doing treenails as both monotonous and relaxing.  Do a bit at a time and you get great pleasure out of the slow progression.  It's almost like tying the half hitches to make the ratlins on the shrouds...they never seem to end...but each one is progress.  

 

 

 

[Overworked724]

Hi Red.  You can also go down in size to a smaller gauge needle if those holes are too overwhelming.  How are you making your holes?  Seems like the grain is being stretched a bit when looking at your stain swatches.  Could be the angle of the photo too. 

Edited November 23, 2020 by Overworked724

[Redshadowrider]

I am using a pln vise with the smallest bit I have 1/32”.   This is even smaller than a t-pin so going smaller is a challenge.  Not to count how small the fill, or wood nails would be.  I am wondering if once I get everything else on her, they will no longer be a focal point and fade into the background. It’s a lot of drilling if they don’t. 😬