Planking pins/nails

[DaveBaxt]

AS I am about to star on the first layer of planking which happens to be Walnut 1.5 mm x 6 mm , which is not the easiest to bend, however I am managing . The problem seems to be securing the planks. As there will be a second row of planking I thought I would like to try pinning the planks. I have laid a few and after drilling the planks I am finding it much easier using 7mm brass nails However I thought it would be a good idea to remove them afterwards however I am finding this almost impossible without damaging the planks. Is ther an easy way to remove them?

                    I could of coarse just use clamps but wonder if the planks will sit as well due to the difficulty of bending.I know there are several different ways of clamping but just thought about nails.

[sticker]

Hi there  have you thought about treenails   youknow from toothpicks      by the way  which model are you doing that first planks in walnut as this is usually the second planking  ?    It seems that most models use  cheaper wood for first planks   which you would just glue down   ,but i may be wrong  and thats something my wife tells me a lot          cheers      sticker

[DaveBaxt]

1 hour ago, sticker said:

Hi there  have you thought about treenails   youknow from toothpicks      by the way  which model are you doing that first planks in walnut as this is usually the second planking  ?    It seems that most models use  cheaper wood for first planks   which you would just glue down   ,but i may be wrong  and thats something my wife tells me a lot          cheers      sticker

Hello there and thanks for your quick reply. Treenails, you got me there. I will have to ask google see what I get. The model is the HMS Bounty by Amati. All the wood in the box is Walnut including 1.5 x 6 mm  and  0.5 x 4 mm. 

[sticker]

Hi there Davebaxt        treenails ie  nails made of wood/bamboo as opposed to metal   ( brass/ copper nails)   . To use   , drill through plank where it touches the bulkhead   (and also into the bulkhead aswell  )  side then you would use a glued wooden pin pushed through the plank,  because the treenail is tapered  it will lock the plank in place  ,you should thin down youre pva glue   so it swells the pin and dosnt push back out on insertion .Some sort of clamp is a good idea while the glue sets    or even a spot of super glue on the inside  an a quick spritz of activator  for a real belts and braces approach,  and could pop onto youtube theres plenty of vids    hope this helps     and im sure plenty of the guys on this forum will help you out      theyre a good bunch     cheers   sticker

[Rik Thistle]

Dave,

 

A member on here kindly advised me that putting the nail through a scrap piece of wood (say, planking off-cut) first, then tapping the nail (plus scrap) into the plank/bulkhead was a good way of making it easy to extract the nails once the PVA glue had set.

 

The scrap keeps the nail head about 1mm or so (scrap thickness) above the glued plank so it is easy to jam a lever into the scrap and extract the nails.  The scrap also spreads the clamping load over a wider area than the nail head as the glue dries.

 

Richard

[barkeater]

You don't mention heat/steam bending. If you aren't then pre-bending or shaping your plank will make final gluing a lot easier.

[Jaager]

1 hour ago, Rik Thistle said:

putting the nail through a scrap piece of wood (say, planking off-cut) first, then tapping the nail (plus scrap) into the plank/bulkhead

Davis has a drawing to these.  His name for them is hutchocks.  If the scrap is fairly thick, there is room to insert the tip of a curved Kelly clamp to grip the pin after the scrap is split out. 

rotation usually breaks the glue bond. A buffer under the Kelly to protect planking, it makes for an effective prise.

The chock is a good idea in any case, but since the planks are to be covered by a 2nd layer, the pins could be flush nipped and filed flush.

There are museum models from France that have brass trunnels showing.

There are also recent photos of model restoration where iron (steel) pins where used. After a hundred years or three the nails were oxidized and gone, leaving a black stain on the planking.

So, anywhere there is any danger of a pin being not removable, it is wise to only use brass or copper pins.

[allanyed]

Regarding treenails or trennals or trunnels, bamboo is probably the strongest for its size.  It is RELATIVELY easy to make by splitting bamboo skewers found in any grocery store and then running them through a good drawplate such as that from Jim Byrnes.  

 

That said, a lot depends on the scale your model is.  If 1:96, to stay in scale,  the holes you are drilling should be about the size of a #80 bit (0.013" diameter) and the pins or trennels you use should be that small or there is the danger of having out of scale dots and what looks like the measles all over the hull.   If the scale is larger, say 1:48 it is much easier as you can go to a #71 bit or thereabouts and making the trennals is doable and would show nicely.   If in doubt, don't pin or use trennals.   Pre taper and bend the planks with heat so they hold the shape and you will not need pins or clamps just some PVA, a little finger pressure and a minute or less to let the glue begin to cure and hold the plank in place.

 

Allan

 

 

[DaveBaxt]

Thank you everyone for some fantastic solutions. I have been using the scrap bits of wood to secure the plank but have been using pins instead of nails.

Not sure if the nails I have will allow a scrap of would underneath the nail head but will give it a go. I see some people  are using cocktail sicks as tree nails and I have a number of these at had so might give this a try and see how that goes. I could of coarse as you suggested just use the nails and file the heads flush with the plank when the glue has dried. I will need a lot of nails nut they are not expensive. I will probably try the other solution first and see how I get on.Any thoughts on this would be more than welcome. 

ps I have been using a electric plank bender to bend the planks which I am slowly getting the hang of this. I have will probably use steam at some stage as there are a few pieces the need bending to fit on the gun whales and I was thinking of making a jig for this purpose. Cheers Dave

[allanyed]

Dave, What ship are you building and what is the scale?

Thanks

Allan

[Jaager]

Bending the planks:

wood is a bundle of cellulose tubes - cellulose is not soluble in water ( I am not sure it is soluble in anything that leaves it useful when precipitated out. )

The glue that holds the fibers in position is lignin -  It is soluble (or affected) by pure hot liquid ammonia - the explosive industrial stuff, not the household cleaner -which only mars any wood exposed to it.

Heat will loosen the lignin bond.  Steam is a more effective way to transfer heat into the interior of a piece of wood.  Dry heat, if too high, can degrade or char the wood.

If you keep in mind what is going on at the cellular level, it is easier to evaluate the methods in use to bend the wood. 

Keep a thought on this factor: - that you fighting Nature.  Given any chance, she will reverse your efforts.  Spilling the planks is working with Nature, even though it is more expensive - in time and materials.

 

2 hours ago, SpyGlass said:

suggest you dont try and file the nails flat -makes a good sanding job very hard and rips the blazes out of the sanding medium

I admit that I am in foreign territory with POB and two layer planking.  However, it seems to me that the looks of the first layer is not important. It is probably counter productive or a waste of effort  to go much deeper than medium grit for sanding it. If brass pins are are nipped close and treated to a warding file, there is nothing there to affect any sanding material.  If the outer layer is to be bamboo trunneled, then the pins under it could affect any drilled holes.  But, the basic POB method is not really compatible with this (unrealistic, but fun modeler's convention.).

[sticker]

Hi there Davebaxt      personally i would not use nails on first planking  or nails at all for that matter   i think its not a good idea to push into the edge of your bulkheads  plywood and MDF (horrible stuff ) they dont take the pressure to well  and a line of pins running down from top to bottom  cant be good even if its glued    just my opinion    cheers   sticker

 

[Slowhand]

Hi Davebaxt, I always use the copper pins supplied with Corel, Occre to fix the planks, both first and second layers,  once you’ve got the wales in place.  No need to push them through the timber, use the edge of the pin head to hold the lower edge of the plank down and fix into the bulkhead. The upper edge rarely needs  anything, when dry pull the pin out and reuse. Always thought treenails were for appearance rather than structural in models. Picture attached is a scratch build hence drawing pins but it shows the idea.

Edited December 19, 2020 by Slowhand
Image added