Confusion with Halyards on stays

[DaveBaxt]

According to my  instructions for the HMS Bounty There are a number of Halyards on the Stays which  have black thread. I appreciate these are classed as standing rigging and therefore tarred. However my feeling is that as with the Halyards on the shrouds these are also classed as standing rigging but this section are not tarred and therefore a light colour and can be handled when required ( not sure why other than ropes stretch)

Unfortunately I have already be fitting halyards to some of the stays on the bowsprit and have been fitting black thread. (following instructions)  It is only now I have realized my possible mistake. Just for the record as this is my first build and have made many mistakes perhaps I should continue with the black for the stays as I really don,t want to go back and change all my hard work. Just for the record its the same situation with the Back Stays .Best regards Dave 

Edited March 13, 2021 by DaveBaxt

[allanyed]

Dave,

Can you indicate with which stays and which halyards you are concerned?     "Normally",  all the  stays would be tarred thus a dark brown (or black as that is what they provided in the kit) and the halyards are running rigging thus would be a tan color as they would not be tarred.  The tarring is as mentioned above by Davis to preserve it.  Running rigging going through blocks and sheaves would gum these up if tarred.   I realize you spent a lot of time with the rigging, but you might want to reconsider and replace the halyards with the proper color rope if you used used black line.  As this is your first build  I hope you are not being discouraged with the mistakes found in some kits.   If nothing else, it makes for a great learning experience before embarking on the next modeling venture.      

Allan 

 

[DaveBaxt]

2 hours ago, allanyed said:

Dave,

Can you indicate with which stays and which halyards you are concerned?     "Normally",  all the  stays would be tarred thus a dark brown (or black as that is what they provided in the kit) and the halyards are running rigging thus would be a tan color as they would not be tarred.  The tarring is as mentioned above by Davis to preserve it.  Running rigging going through blocks and sheaves would gum these up if tarred.   I realize you spent a lot of time with the rigging, but you might want to reconsider and replace the halyards with the proper color rope if you used used black line.  As this is your first build  I hope you are not being discouraged with the mistakes found in some kits.   If nothing else, it makes for a great learning experience before embarking on the next modeling venture.      

Allan 

 

The Stays in question are all of them .Including the back stays,however the ones I have done are the bowsprit, fore and main masts all of them have halyards of some diiscription , the ones on the Bowsprit have hearts with halyards the fore mast  has hearts also with halyards between them. The main mast to the bowsprit also has hearts with halyards . I am assuming the ropes which link the hearts together are also halyards  and require light tan thread . The Mizzen Stays and main preventer stays have blocks with halyards  between. them. I have just spent a fortune buying black thread for the stays so rightly or wrongly I am sticking with black for the standing rigging which is tarred.. My next model I will perhaps change to dark brown. So it is as I thought the halyards need to be a light tan colour and not black as suggested by Amati. They really need to get there act together in my view. I don,t think it would be such a big task to change the halyards to light tan, so don,t mind doing it at some stage. Thanks Allan for clearing that up for me as you say I probably need the practice. Best regards Dave

Edited March 13, 2021 by DaveBaxt

[popeye2sea]

I think you are confusing halyards with lanyards.  What you are describing as the line attaching two hearts together on the stay is called a lanyard. The ones connecting two blocks is called a tackle.

For the hearts and lanyards on the stays, go ahead and leave them dark brown or black as these are designed to fixed in place after setting up taut and would be tarred.

For the tackles rove through blocks, such as for backstays, it is your choice. For although they are designed to be set up taut and not moved frequently they needed to be adjusted from time to time based on how much strain was being put on the masts.

 

BTW,  a halyard is the line used to haul the yard up into position on the mast.

 

Best of luck with your first build. 

 

Regards,

[DaveBaxt]

42 minutes ago, popeye2sea said:

I think you are confusing halyards with lanyards.  What you are describing as the line attaching two hearts together on the stay is called a lanyard. The ones connecting two blocks is called a tackle.

For the hearts and lanyards on the stays, go ahead and leave them dark brown or black as these are designed to fixed in place after setting up taut and would be tarred.

For the tackles rove through blocks, such as for backstays, it is your choice. For although they are designed to be set up taut and not moved frequently they needed to be adjusted from time to time based on how much strain was being put on the masts.

 

BTW,  a halyard is the line used to haul the yard up into position on the mast.

 

Best of luck with your first build. 

 

Regards,

My mistake I di mean to say  Lanyards honest haha. Ha so The hearts are  Lanyards and block are tackle, what about dead eyes. I assumed the ropes between them were lanyards too ! Thanks for your input Popeye much appreciated, best regards 

[allanyed]

Yes,  as Henry pointed out, the line between deadeyes for shrouds or when used for stays before hearts came into use  and then later for the hearts are lanyards.   Age old question about whether they were tarred or not.   In the photo of a contemporary model from Preble Hall you can see that the lanyards for the shroud deadeyes and for the hearts for the stays are lighter in color than the shrouds or stays.     I also have  photos of a number of contemporary models that show the shrouds to be untarred so the models themselves could be re-rigged or not always representative of the actual rigging at times.  

Allan   

[DaveBaxt]

Wow! This is more confusing than ever.Just when I thought I was getting there. So if I try to remember it for next time .Can I say for standing rigging anything that runs through a block and tackle or deadeyes is light brown/tan in colour. Any)thing else is a dark brown in colour ( black as I have loads of it)

All running rigging is light brown in colour. Crow feet .Now surely that is also adjustable and would not normally be tarred and therefore light brown. Hoping I am correct but probably not .

            Sorry for slipping another question in regarding standing rigging . I am assuming  that as the Stays ,Back stays and Shrouds go higher up the thread becomes thinner or I should stop assuming anything? Thanks again for taking your time to explain things to me  Best regards Dave

Edited March 14, 2021 by DaveBaxt

[Bob Cleek]

9 hours ago, allanyed said:

In the photo of a contemporary model from Preble Hall you can see that the lanyards for the shroud deadeyes and for the hearts for the stays are lighter in color than the shrouds or stays.     I also have  photos of a number of contemporary models that show the shrouds to be untarred so the models themselves could be re-rigged or not always representative of the actual rigging at times.  

Allan   

 

But then, in the contemporary model above, we see the hull planking is left bright, or, at best, newly tarred, and that would have appeared black at scale viewing distance in short order, owing to the build-up of tar and dirt and weathering. Moreover, the falls all coiled in gravity-defying perfect circles are not representative of anything existing in nature. So much for reliance on contemporary models to accurately portray contemporary subjects. They must be taken with a grain of salt because contemporary modelers seem to have exercised artistic license as freely as do many of today's modelers. This is particularly so with the so-called Admiralty Board models, which were generally not built to convey an artistic impression of reality in miniature, but rather to convey particular construction and design features which were often accentuated for such effect. At least, that's my conclusion and I'm sticking to it. 

 

I'm not sure why there is so much angst over the definitions of "running" and "standing rigging." If it "runs" through a block or a fairlead, in other words, when it's doing its work, it is intended to "run through something," it's "running rigging." If it generally just sits still, it's "standing rigging." In the days before metal cable, all rigging on a sailing vessel was made of cordage (excepting the obvious bit of chain here and there) and that cordage was made of natural hemp. The only difference in its color was the result of the amount of tar that it had on it. 

 

The color of cordage varies with its age. In the Age of Sail, cordage was generally made of natural hemp. Hemp can be bleached such that it appears quite white, but when unbleached, it is a darker, grey-er brown than the later "straw colored' "Manila" sisal cordage most people are familiar with these days and which is essentially useless for maritime rigging applications. Natural hemp will darken substantially when oiled and all cordage was oiled to preserve it. Anyone who has ever worked with real "tarred marline," which was available decades ago, will recall its color was a rather dark brown. Lanyards were made of real hemp cordage in olden times because it was the strongest cordage available and had little stretch, a quality appreciated when used for lashings and deadeye lanyards. While deadeyes permitted tightening the lanyards when they stretched, this was not, as some modelers mistakenly conclude, something that was done with any more frequency that absolutely necessary. Once a new lanyard had been stretched, it tended to stay stretched, so further adjustment was not necessary. (Keep in mind that the lee shrouds are always slack and the windward shrouds tight and that this condition is reversed each time the vessel tacks.) Lanyards would be tarred along with the rest of the standing rigging and so would end up as "black" as the rest of the standing rigging in short order. 

 

As for the presence of light-colored lanyards on some contemporary models, may I suggest that this is simply a result of the thread the modelers used for scale lanyards, which would have often been bleached linen thread, which is white or ecru and was not oiled. 

 

Now that industrial hemp growing has again become "legalized," we are seeing some "hemp" cordage coming back on the market. This newly available "hemp" cordage is apparently blended with flax and referred to as "hemp flax" or "flax hemp" cordage. For whatever reason, hemp has always been more expensive than flax (linen.) It is very difficult to tell the difference between hemp cordage fibers and flax cordage fibers, except that, upon drying, hemp fiber will twist counter-clockwise, while flax fibers will twist clockwise. (If you're wonky about such things, see: https://www.autexrj.com/cms/zalaczone_pliki/2-03-2.pdf ) Hemp twists in the right-handed direction and flax in the left. This "direction of the lay" is significant when making rope, which is made with either a "right handed" or "left handed" lay. In the marine environment, where cordage is subjected to repeated wetting and drying cycles, it is even more significant because flax swells quickly, while hemp swells slowly when wet. When rope gets wet and swells, the expansion of the strands causes the rope to shorten. (Yes, it's counter-intuitive, I know.) Hemp cordage is therefore more stable as to its length in the marine environment and thus was the preferred raw material for maritime applications, and particularly lanyards, which you wanted to stay tight once they were set up. 

Edited March 14, 2021 by Bob Cleek

[mtaylor]

14 hours ago, DaveBaxt said:

Crow feet .Now surely that is also adjustable and would not normally be tarred and therefore light brown. Hoping I am correct but probably not .

            Sorry for slipping another question in regarding standing rigging . I am assuming  that as the Stays ,Back stays and Shrouds go higher up the thread becomes thinner or I should stop assuming anything? Thanks again for taking your time to explain things to me  Best regards Dave

Crowfeet would probably have been tarred.as they were standing rigging.

 

Regarding the rope thickness... yes and no.  Single rope, no.  But the different lines, yes. The rigging plan will give you this info. On a model, some of the differences just are observable, so it becomes a modeler's choice.

[DaveBaxt]

12 hours ago, mtaylor said:

Crowfeet would probably have been tarred.as they were standing rigging.

 

Regarding the rope thickness... yes and no.  Single rope, no.  But the different lines, yes. The rigging plan will give you this info. On a model, some of the differences just are observable, so it becomes a modeler's choice.

I would like to thank every one who has replied to my questions regarding what is to me a very complex subject, hopefully with your help I now understand a bit more .I think I will once again re do some of the rigging which there is not too much as I have caught it early enough. So really glad I asked the question before proceeding. As it happens I have decided to change tack slightly and build those yards whilst I wait for my servo o matic I have just ordered from chuck. Once I have received my serving machine I will continue with the rigging. Best regards Dave