HMS Victory by Bill97 - FINISHED - Heller - 1/100 - PLASTIC

[Kevin-the-lubber]

Bill, I'll leave it to other, more qualified people to advise properly as I'm nowhere near even looking at bits of string, but there are some good photos on Paul Bishops build log https://modelshipworld.com/topic/14614-hms-victory-by-bishophobbies-heller-1100-finished/?tab=comments#comment-676378 that may help. Plus an observation, though I may be misunderstanding what you've described and shown: I'd read Longridge to be saying the rope only passes through the hull once, through the 'leaded hole' which in this instance looks likely to be the oblong hole above the main deck. The remainder are attached to the outside of the hull via eyebolts, which is logical as you wouldn't have it running inside under the quarter deck..

 

Does the kit have that 'main sheet block bracket' he mentions, Fig 55, that keeps the block clear of the hull? I don't see it in the instructions.

 

(Like I said, at this rate you'll be rigging by Christmas!)

[Bill97]

Good morning Marc. I took your advice and looked at  bishophobbie’s build log, which I keep bookmarked along with several others. I saved one of his photos for this discussion. Hope that is OK. The photo shows the sheet line I am analyzing. What did he do there? Head scratcher. It appears there is a block attached to the hull by way of a black thread which I assume is to an eyebolt. A tan thread starts at the same area where the eyebolt looks to be. Does it also tie to the eyebolt?  Does it pass through a hole in the hull and tie to a cleat inside somewhere?  That line then goes up to a block that will be used later with the mast then back down and through the leaded hole and then to the cleat. That part is clear. But what is going on at the start of that line somewhere near the eyebolt?  You have the instructions but to make it easier I attached what Heller says to do and a photo of area. 

[dafi]

Longridge and Heller describe an anachronistic version, also this was shown in P. untill some years ago. There the line with the block is kept clear the hull with an iron bracket and this is only post Trafalgar if I remember well. I think the bishop version is closer to Trafalgar but it should be researched again. Perhaps Lees tells something  It could be, that the block was quite near the hull, but the hanger on the yard was much longer.

 

XXXDAn

Edited September 4, 2021 by dafi

[Bill97]

Thanks Daniel and I like that application. But still what happens to the end of that line after it passes through that lower block?  Any idea?

[Kevin-the-lubber]

Those Heller instructions are baffling. Logically, both of those lower ends (entry points) would have to be tied off for the pulley system to work, then the upper loose end goes through the rectangular hole to a cleat on the main deck (I assume). 

[Bill97]

Yes Kevin they are. I got the front two sheets on each side pretty clearly and easily but this back one is a head scratcher. You made a very interesting point in your last comment. The lose end going through the rectangle hole. I was thinking they should do that but when I looked at bishophobby’s pictures I see that he ran his through just one of the other holes.  Made me wonder if the rectangular holes served some other purpose. I included a photo bishop’s rigging and mine done like his. I pointed my exacto knife to the rectangle holes. Should I untie these sheets and take the loose end through the holes I am pointing to them to the cleat?

Edited September 4, 2021 by Bill97

[Kevin-the-lubber]

Sorry Bill, I'm confusing the issue, I was looking at the wrong area of the hull and in any case was wrong. I'm pretty sure all of those rectangular slots are for the chain plates. I was thinking of the angled, oval shaped slots as I've seen ropes running through these in build logs but having just gone to the workshop see there is only one of those in each side whereas I thought there were more.

 

I think this is why everyone seems to say ignore the instructions for rigging and use e.g. longridge to figure it out. Myself, I think when I get to this stage I'll dry fit everything to the hull that has to go on, see what holes remain unused, and just try to logic out the rope lines.

[Bill97]

Kevin I think you are right and I will do the same with dry fitting and maybe not analyze so much. 
 

I read an interesting comment on another site from someone who is also building the Victory and was struggling with the rigging. He said previously built the Revell 1/96 USS Constitution, a model I have also built. Until I started the Victory the USS Constitution had by far the most detailed rigging of any ship I have built. Don’t know if you have seen it or built it, but the rigging is pretty thorough. It even includes all the foot ropes on the yards and rigging of the cannons on lower decks. What was good with Revell and this kit was a full separate instruction book just on the rigging. It was sequential to the point of saying tie this tan line, or black line of this length from this point to that point. The guy making the comment said he was just going to rig his Victory using the Constitution rigging instructions. Not sure how close a US ship of the time compares to a British ship, but it is a thought. I too have that Constitution rigging manual. 

[Kevin-the-lubber]

The constitution is on my list, along with the cutty sark/Thermopylae, in fact I came close to buying the latter this week as something easier and quicker to do when I need a break from victory. The constitution seems very hard to get hold of here in the UK and ridiculously expensive for a plastic kit. However, what you’re suggesting sounds like a decent plan. Personally I’ll probably take liberties when I come to this stage, as I’m going for appearance over accuracy. It’s weird, isn’t it, that Heller took the trouble to make what is generally seen as the finest plastic large scale age of sail model, but did such a shocker of a job on the instructions. And no-one would bother writing a step by step guide for re-sale now, as they’d be pirated within days.

[GrandpaPhil]

The 100 Gun Ship Victory (Anatomy Of The Ship) by John McKay has very good rigging plans.  Those are what I am using for my Victory.  The sail plan is not the greatest, but there is a side-on view of the Victory in Brian Lavery’s “The Ship” that I am going to use to make the sails.

Edited September 5, 2021 by GrandpaPhil

[Bill97]

GrandpaPhil is this the book you are talking about?  I have it in my Victory library. Will have to give it a good look through. 

[GrandpaPhil]

Yes, it is.  

That’s what I’ve been using for my Victory.  It’s an excellent reference.

[Ian_Grant]

BIll, you have it routed correctly, but to make it easier I would glue in an eyebolt for the standing end of the sheet (as in Longridge's diagram) instead of running this end of the thread through the hull. If you carry on as is, you will need to predict the exact length of thread you need to get the sheet block in the correct location be it with or without sail; if you add an eyebolt you can make the thread longer than needed, store it in a coil dangling from the hull, then when the time comes rig it and tie off the end.

 

EDIT: Sorry, I was away a few days, logged on and saw your original question about the main sheet and answered it without realizing there were all these interim posts.

 

Yes, many of the rectangular holes are for attaching the channels, which hold the lower deadeyes.

 

As for the main tack, after it emerges from the hull just below the big deck chock for the sheet anchor it passes through the sheave hole in the chess tree just aft of it (Longridge pg 252 "Tack"). See below, which shows the main tack and fore sheet crossing each other in this area. Again, I would add eyebolts as shown to make them easy to rig later.

On my model:

 

On the 1:1 model:

 

Edited September 5, 2021 by Ian_Grant

[Ian_Grant]

22 hours ago, Kevin-the-lubber said:

Sorry Bill, I'm confusing the issue, I was looking at the wrong area of the hull and in any case was wrong. I'm pretty sure all of those rectangular slots are for the chain plates. I was thinking of the angled, oval shaped slots as I've seen ropes running through these in build logs but having just gone to the workshop see there is only one of those in each side whereas I thought there were more.

 

I think this is why everyone seems to say ignore the instructions for rigging and use e.g. longridge to figure it out. Myself, I think when I get to this stage I'll dry fit everything to the hull that has to go on, see what holes remain unused, and just try to logic out the rope lines.

True, you cannot do better than Longridge. He spells everything out clearly and succinctly, rigging line by rigging line.

[Bill97]

Thanks Ian. I think I might have it now. Hopefully. Your two photos show I have it right on for two of the 3 so far. Will let you know how the back one goes. 
 

Added some of the parts to the Upper Deck and worked on the Admiral’s little home!  Still want to spruce it up with a little miniature furniture. Added a little black wash to the 3 stairs to show some wear. 

[Ian_Grant]

On 9/4/2021 at 3:36 AM, Kevin-the-lubber said:

 

Does the kit have that 'main sheet block bracket' he mentions, Fig 55, that keeps the block clear of the hull? I don't see it in the instructions.

 

(Like I said, at this rate you'll be rigging by Christmas!)

No that bracket is not provided. You either believe it was there (see Dafi's recent posts here) and make one, or ignore it and put the block just on a long strop to the eyebolt.

[Ian_Grant]

Bill, looking good!  If the bitts behind the main mast aren't glued, you might want to drill some sheave holes at the base of the uprights in order to rig the three pairs of ropes passing thru the quarterdeck here sensibly.

 

Also, those little pillars are easy to knock off as you slide the quarterdeck into place. If they're not glued already, they're easy to add afterwards, and then you know you're lining them up with the skid beams properly.

[Bill97]

Ok Ian this is my plan for that sheet. Two eyebolts near each other.  A long strop with a block  attached to one eyebolt. The sheet line tied to the other eyebolt passing through a loose block (for now) that will eventually attach to the sail and then returning back to the block on the strop and through a hole in the hull to a cleat. 

[Ian_Grant]

18 hours ago, Kevin-the-lubber said:

The constitution is on my list, along with the cutty sark/Thermopylae, in fact I came close to buying the latter this week as something easier and quicker to do when I need a break from victory. The constitution seems very hard to get hold of here in the UK and ridiculously expensive for a plastic kit. However, what you’re suggesting sounds like a decent plan. Personally I’ll probably take liberties when I come to this stage, as I’m going for appearance over accuracy. It’s weird, isn’t it, that Heller took the trouble to make what is generally seen as the finest plastic large scale age of sail model, but did such a shocker of a job on the instructions. And no-one would bother writing a step by step guide for re-sale now, as they’d be pirated within days.

I built both Revell kits way back in the 70's; they're still sitting in the shipyard but very dusty and pirated for parts. I think the Constitution is regarded as the better model of the two; the Cutty Sark has weird issues like the deck caulking lines are proud of the planks not recessed, or the lower mast deadeyes (at least as supplied  in my 70's model) are molded with lanyards that span about 8 scale feet !?, or the bow and stern decorations are simple decals with no 3D "presence" (again, at least in my 70's kit).

 

The Constitution is pretty good, except for the yards being just magically glued on to the masts with no parrals or lower yard truss pendants. And both models come with those molded "rubbery" shroud/ratline assemblies which I would not use again personally....

[Bill97]

What do you think Ian?  This look right?

[Bill97]

Here are my Constitution and Cutty Sark in display cases. Constitution only one I have left the sails off. Really liked being able to see the rigging. Agree with everything you said, especially those shroud/ratline assemblies. Not used since these two models. 

[Ian_Grant]

Yes, your main sheet looks good.

 

Your Cutty looks nice. Maybe I should consider trying to clean 40 years of dust off mine and then case it? For the most part it is still intact, some minor repairs required, although I wish I had painted the molded deadeye lanyards. Or perhaps I will build another someday with wood deadeyes. My Constitution is a write-off; for parts only.

[Kevin-the-lubber]

Looks entirely logical, with my engineering hat on my head.

 

Both of those models look very nicely done. The sails on the CS look great, are they self made or from the kit? I’m planned on mine being curled, but that’s way down the line. I have a tutorial somewhere by Maurice Wilcox (AKA Blue Ensign), which I think he included in his log for his very beautiful HMS Pegasus, using tissue for that look. 

 

I half-succumbed and bought a Revell 1/96 Bounty yesterday - it was going ridiculously cheap and even comes with a laser cut deck. 

[Bill97]

Thanks Ian and Kevin. Kevin my sails are hand made with help from my wife. Will explain how I did them. 

[Bill97]

Kevin this is my sail process. Kind of a combination of ideas I have seen. I included a handful of pictures to help it make sense. 
I use the plastic sails that come with the kit as a sort of mold. I first measure the distance between the molded lines on the plastic sails. If real close I measure to ever other line. I then transfer that measurement to a standard piece of copy paper filling it with parallel lines end to end and side to side. I then make several copies to have enough to make the needed sail patterns. Using a ruler, string to measure curved areas, or whatever is needed to accurately transfer the 3D plastic sail shape to the paper I draw a 2D pattern making sure I keep the lines matching the sail lines. I then select the particular cloth I want to use for the sails and draw lines on it exactly as I did on the paper. Cover enough cloth with lines for all the paper sails to fit. I then use the paper patterns to transfer the shapes to the cloth. Again paying attention to the lines. Once I have all the sails drawn on the cloth i hand it off to my living wife! We do not have a sewing machine so she land stitches all the lines in all the sails, including in horizontal lines shown on the plastic sail. I give her plenty of time to work on this. In fact I am work on my Victory patterns soon. Once they are all stitched I cut them out and lay them on the corresponding plastic sails. Then I make a solution of 50/50 water and white glue. Using the solution I paint the sails with a brush coating them thoroughly and form the cloth to the plastic sail. Use the plastic as a sort of mold to shape the wet cloth. Once this is done I let it dry for a day or so. After which the sails can be popped loose of the mold and after a little trimming you have a perfectly matching billowed cloth sail to the plastic sail. The glue prevents the thread from raveling. Once complete you can use paint or antique as you desire. You can also add additional threads and whatever else you want to further enhance the look. Punch a series of holes along the top for threads to tie to the yard and you are ready to go. I have used this same process on all my ships except the Constitution. 

[Kevin-the-lubber]

Compliments to Mrs Bill, that's some very fine needlework. And I meant 'furled' of course, not 'curled'. Blasted spell-checkers.

 

[Bill97]

Kevin to furl them I do the same process but then just fold and bend and scrunch them until I get the shape I am looking for. The glue in the cloth gives them adequate stiffness to maintain the shape you like. 

[Bill97]

Kevin here are some other examples of this sail process on my Man O War, Mayflower, and Wasa. Some sails furled and some not. 

[Kevin-the-lubber]

Lovely stuff. I made the Wasa a few years back, while helping my daughter make the Revell Viking ship for homework (i.e. I made it, she stuck the decals on the shields 🙂 ). Made a dreadful job of the Wasa but it whetted my appetite for modelling proper, and here I am.

 

All of yours look fantastic, the Mayflower in particular looks very elegant with the white hull. 

 

Fully succumbed today, bought the Cutty Sark cheap on ebay, which I'll probably do as a hybrid of CS and Thermopylae. And it was the Beagle rather than Bounty I bought earlier this week, though apparently it's just the Bounty in disguise. As that only cost £20 that'll probably be the 'for fun' project, something to experiment and learn on without worrying too much about the end result.

[Bill97]

The Mayflower is my only model by a company called Trumpeter. I like building the larger scale ships and they were the only one I could find in the bigger scale. The Wasa is my smallest scale and is a Airfix’ model. I also have their Golden Hind in my stash for “someday”.     I find it interesting that each of the models I have made I could find the original ship in museum status now. That would be an incredible bucket list trip. Two are on my side of the pond (Constitution and Mayflower). The others are on your side. Not sure if there is/was an actual Man O War I could go see.