Question on Domanoff's 6+1 or PL4 rope walk machine

[DispleasedOwl]

Hi everyone

 

With me getting more and more into this hobby i find myself not liking the ropes that usually come with the kits. Thats why i have been looking into purchasing one of Domanoff's rope walking machines. My only question, if anyone in here already has one, is: do they already sell the strands in those spools, or do we need to rewind them in the same ones that come with the machine?

 

Also if anyone has any photos of how do the finished product look using those machines, i would gladly like to see them!

 

Thank you very much

[Bob Cleek]

The "spools" on these machines are standard home sewing machine bobbins. You can purchase them at sewing stores or online for very little money. They are reusable and you have to wind your thread on them yourself. This is easily done on any sewing machine, which will have a "bobbin winder" on it, or you can use a dedicated bobbin winder. I prefer the dedicated bobbin winder because I don't have to get out the sewing machine to wind bobbins. I believe it is important to use a bobbin winder not only because it is extremely tedious to wind thread on a bobbin by hand, but also because it is important to wind the thread on the bobbin with uniform tension. Bobbin winders have an adjustable tensioner which ensures uniform tension of the wound thread on the bobbin.

 

Review the rope-making information in the "discussions" section of the MSW forum regarding the best threads to use and the "receipes" for various sizes of scale rope. Discussions about Rope Making - Model Ship World™  Guttermann Mara polyester thread seems to be the favored material at present. Linen thread of suitable quality has become very difficult to source in recent times. 

 

The Simplicy Bobbin Winder is portable and runs on either AA batteries or plugs into a household outlet. (I'm uncertain if they make one that runs on the household line voltage in Spain. We have 120VAC here in the US. I'm sure there must be a European equivalent in any event. Bobbin winders are a common sewing accessory.)

 

US$22.00 from Amazon:  Amazon.com: Simplicity Sidewinder Portable Bobbin Winder, White

Edited August 3, 2021 by Bob Cleek

[Gregory]

Have you settled on the Domanoff type machine?

 

While I have seen that it can produce decent scale rope they can be problematic and limited when it comes to making a wide variety of rope.

For different size rope, you would have to change the bobbins, and you are limited to four strands of any one size.

Which means for a particular size rope made from a particular size thread, to get a larger rope, you would have to make 2 or more lines, then wind them onto bobbins, and proceed to make larger rope from them.

 

With a rope walk like the Syren Rope Rocket, you don't have to worry about bobbins, you just use any length of thread, depending on the length of the line you want to make.  You can also increase the size of the rope by adding more threads to the 4 whorls that make up the heart of the machine.

It is not as compact as the Domanoff, but is much more versatile.

 

Then there is the Frolic style, discussed here:

, but requires a lot of DYI..

 

There are a lot of satisfied Rope Rocket users here at MSW.

 

[mtaylor]

I've got the Domanoff and while it works, it takes a bit to get it working right.  I've not done anything to show as I was just testing it.   Reports are the Syren works well and is very reasonably priced.

[Bob Cleek]

22 hours ago, Gregory said:

While I have seen that it can produce decent scale rope they can be problematic and limited when it comes to making a wide variety of rope.

For different size rope, you would have to change the bobbins, and you are limited to four strands of any one size.

Which means for a particular size rope made from a particular size thread, to get a larger rope, you would have to make 2 or more lines, then wind them onto bobbins, and proceed to make larger rope from them.

With the full disclosure disclaimer that I haven't done everything that can be done on my PL4, and have never used a Rope Rocket, but am familiar with similar rope makers...

 

Changing bobbins on the PL4 is no big deal. You just remove the wing nut on each bobbin and slip another bobbin on the spindle and replace the wing nut.  Bobbins cost a few cents and marked bobbins can hold various sizes of thread, eliminating the need to unload bobbins to change thread size. Making different sized rope is simply a matter of using different sized thread. If one wishes to vary size by adding threads to each strand, the multiple threads can be wound on the bobbins simultaneously, although I'm not sure why one would want to unless the properly sized thread were unavailable. (Multiple threads in strands runs the risk of yielding "square" rope.) If one wishes, laid rope can be laid up to produce thicker rope by simply loading it on the bobbins. (Bobbins load in seconds using a bobbin winder. The PL4 will make three or four strand rope of any size needed for modeling.

 

The Domanoff machines and the Syren Rope Rocket each have their strengths and weaknesses. At the end of the day, I suppose we all dance with the girl we brought. 

 

Domanoff pros:

 

Automatic operation requires less acquired manual dexterity to operate.

 

Relatively unlimited length of rope produced. Less chance of differences in appearance between batches due to variables in lay-up of same-sized strands.

 

Small footprint for operation.  Rope length not limited to linear space available.

 

Produces cored rope which is essential for correct four-strand rope and wire cored rope for shaping catenaries.

 

Equal thread tension is less of an issue if bobbins wound on tensioned bobbin winder.

 

Easy electronic adjustment knobs for operating speed, take-up spool speed and direction of lay. Exact characteristics of rope can be replicated by duplicating the operating settings on the rope maker.

 

Produces rope neatly wound on spool ready for convenient storage should one wish to do so.

 

Dominoff cons:

 

Higher in cost than Rope Rocket for top-of-the- line PL4. Other models are lower in cost and worth a hard look if money is a major consideration.

 

Cannot unlay thread and lay up in opposite direction while on the machine.

 

Multiplying strands in the lay up requires loading separate threads together on bobbins. (I've never tried this.) 

 

Rope Rocket pros:

 

Considerably less expensive than PL4.

 

Larger "user base" on MSW with more information on operation, etc.

 

Operator can reverse thread lay direction on the rope maker by twisting thread in opposite direction.

 

It's the "hare" to the PL4's "tortoise." Rope Rocket probably will probably lay up short lengths of rope faster than the PL4, but, production of greater amounts of set-up time for the Rope Rocket, given its limited length capacity, will probably leave it in the PL4's wake as the PL4 just keeps turning out rope until the amount of thread on the bobbins runs out. (This observation does not apply to Rope Rocket virtuosos like Chuck Passaro, Rope Rocket's designer, who uses it to produce prodigious amounts of the highest quality after-market rope available anywhere.) 

 

Rope Rocket cons:

 

Requires practice to achieve manual dexterity required to produce consistent excellent results. Tightness of twist and lay "by feel" dependent upon operator's skill and experience.

 

Individual thread tension setup is critical to resulting quality of rope produced.

 

Length of rope produced limited by linear space available to operate the rope maker.

 

Cannot produce cored rope. Un-cored four-strand rope is susceptible to "lay collapse." 

 

No question about it, each machine produces fine rope in the hands of a knowledgeable operator. I'd say, on balance, that it's six of one and half dozen of another. About the only thing that people seem to agree upon when it comes to rope making machines is that the Model Shipways one is junk.  

 

 

********************************************************************************************************************************

Re: cored rope, from Alexey Domanoff's instructions:

 

When do we need a central core? Let's take a look at pics:

 

This is 3-strand rope. You may see - everything is ok, all strands lay in their places. You may need central core (made from very thin wire) if you'd like to "form" rope as you like. Diameter of this core shouldn't be more than 0.155 * R.

 

 

This is 4-strand rope. You HAVE TO add central core, otherwise strands will try to be in "center" of the final rope.

 

 

 

 

Edited August 4, 2021 by Bob Cleek

[Eric1]

I have made a lot of 4 strand rope with the Rope Rocket and it looks just like 3 strand only bigger. I don't understand the need of a center core.

[wefalck]

The tighter you wind the strands, the harder and stiffer they become - which means that the two pairs will slip past each other, with the final product looking like a three-stranded rope with a fourth strand running along a groove (diamond-shaped cross-section).

 

Perhaps you rope was soft enough so that the strands squeezed together ...

 

Making a ropewalk yourself and according to the dimensions you need is not really magic and certainly within the capabilities of anyone, who arrived at the stage, where he feels the need for proper rope ... the parts, such as gear wheels, bushings or ball-bearings, rods for axles etc.  are readily available on the Internet; the other materials one can get at any DIY store. Unless one needs to produce hundreds of metres of rope, I find single-use machines, such as those of Domanoff rather expensive for the use they will get. 

[DispleasedOwl]

16 hours ago, Gregory said:

Have you settled on the Domanoff type machine?

Now that i look into Syren's Rope Rocket, and some photos of finished laid rope that i find here in the forum, i am more convinced by this option. Still, i visited their website and i am unable to find the button to buy it? Maybe theyre undergoing some maintenance? I know Chuck is a regular on this forum, maybe he has some news on this

[VTHokiEE]

7 minutes ago, DispleasedOwl said:

Still, i visited their website and i am unable to find the button to buy it? Maybe theyre undergoing some maintenance? I know Chuck is a regular on this forum, maybe he has some news on this

According to this post the store is closed until Sunday: https://modelshipworld.com/topic/16802-hms-winchelsea-1764-by-chuck-14-scale/?do=findComment&comment=840684

 

[DispleasedOwl]

31 minutes ago, VTHokiEE said:

According to this post the store is closed until Sunday

That makes sense!

[Bob Cleek]

You certainly won't go wrong with a Rope Rocket, I had the opportunity to buy my PL4 new at half price from a fellow who found he had no need for it. I'll mention in passing that somewhere I recall recently reading where Alexey Domanoff moved from Belarus to Poland. If so, his EU customers may find the cost of his products, considering shipping, taxes, and customs duties, if any, may have changed significantly. Similarly, shipping, taxes, and customs will likely increase the cost of Syren Rope Rockets to EU customers. I'm not sure exactly what the governments' "bite" will be for you in Spain, but it seems US modeling products are sometimes prohibitively expensive for EU modelers, if the discussions of the subject on this forum are any indication.

 

 

Check out Chuck's tutorial videos if you haven't already: 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 4, 2021 by Bob Cleek

[DispleasedOwl]

I just placed my order for the Rope Rocket and the Swerving machine. Once they arrive, ill update with photos on the ropes i make!