Shroud lanyard color

[Veszett Roka]

36 minutes ago, Bob Cleek said:

Yes, but that really has nothing to do with the subject being discussed. The best anyone can do given your analysis is to build a replica of the ship which was found and it will be accurate only to the degree that the original artifact was intact. Building a replica of one of the Viking grave ships is possible because some were well preserved, as, you note, was Vasa. My point, however, is that one ship doesn't prove a whole lot beyond that one ship. I really don't know how many more "accurate" model kits of Nina, Pinta, and Santa Maria, or Mayflower, Golden Hind, Half Moon, and Noah's Ark will be sold before folks realize we have no historical record of what these vessels actually looked like. 

 

This side-thread came from discussions of modern replicas colors, which could be authentic or not - i cite the longship replicas as authentic source, as they are built by same method and materials like the original.

We are all agree that one ship cannot represent a whole era. However, like Mary Rose, can add tons of data to our existing knowledge. Connect those puzzle pieces together we can model the typical ship of the era. Think of Thor Heyerdahl's Ra1 and Ra2. But that model and its color wouldn't be an authentic, just as far as we can model the original. Don't mention the kits here, those are subject of a massive business, and kit producers easily sacrifice the historical accuracy for higher profit.

So back to the lanyard colors. I think we can say that impregnate the standing rigging was necessary. If we are sure in that period the ancient shipbuilders were used pine tar, we should check its color (which is dark brown). I did produce pine tar in my teenager age, and cover some ropes. As thinner, some clean alcohol was fine. As far as i know, animal grease (whale fat) was also used for cover the ropes - it is white at first, then turns to olive drab.
Cut the long story short, i believe all lookalike color can match. We cannot pinpoint how all those ships were built, how long the sun shaded their threads, how the sea saltness lighten the ropes, and how rotten were the hemp ropes when we model them.

 

Ah, and a remark at the end: during restauration of Peking in Blohm und Voss, the lanyards were impregnated by thinned oil based tar. It is black for sure.

[Bob Cleek]

1 hour ago, Dr PR said:

I agree that pine tar is pine tar, although there might be slight differences between species. It isn't hard to make - I made some myself when I was in high school.

 

What  am curious about is how it was diluted, and with what, and what consistency it had when brushed onto the  ropes. There is a wide range of possibilities, as discussed earlier in this thread. And this means the actual end results could have varied significantly over time and geography.

There are different grades of quality pine tar, generally a function of the processing and resultant purity, but generally speaking, pine tar is pine tar. (e.g. There is a pharmaceutical grade of pine tar produced for medical applications.)

 

The consistency of tar varies in accordance with the particular application. When applied to standing rigging, It was called "slush." The traditional recipe is one part pine tar, one part raw linseed oil, and turpentine to the desired consistency. Modernly, paint thinner can substitute for turpentine and "boiled" linseed oil can replace the raw linseed oil, which will result in a faster drying time, as will adding a bit of Japan dryer to the raw linseed oil mix. 

 

As can be seen from the ingredients, the oil and solvent can be adjusted to modify the consistency of the "slush" so as to work best for the use intended. It's thinned considerably to the consistency of thinned varnish when applied with a brush as a sealing finish on bare wood ashore and afloat. (When used as a finish on bare wood, it's sometimes called "boat sauce" or "boat soup.") It was applied at the consistency of paint when applied to iron fittings and canon as a rust preventative. When applied to cordage when spun in the ropewalk, it was thinned greatly in order to result in a thin coating. On running rigging, it was thickened considerably (hence the term, "slush") and applied with slush-soaked rags wiped on the rigging. The use of thick "slush" on standing rigging avoided much of the drips and splatters that would have occurred using a thinner mix applied with a brush. 

 

Pine tar alone was applied to pounded and flayed hemp stalks and rolled into "ropes" to make oakum for caulking seams. Seams were sometimes stopped with tar, heated and poured into the seams with a special spouted can, but that was a very messy proposition, particularly when the decks would be exposed to the hot sun and the tar softened and was tracked everywhere. [Alternately, deck seams were stopped with putty made of litharge (white lead oxide powder,) whiting (powdered chalk) and raw linseed oil or with various bitumen compounds. In the mid-19th Century, "naval" or "marine glue" was invented and remains the best stopping for traditionally planked decks. Jeffreys Marine Glue, now made by Davey and Co., London, is a proprietary compound of bitumen and natural rubber which liquifies when heated and is poured hot into the seams. When cooled, it is not sticky.]

 

Greatly thinned pine tar will have a honey color, but repeated applications will quickly darken the surface as the coats build up and in short order the color is going to be a very dark brown, so much so as to appear virtually black. 

 

Because pine tar will soften in the sun and, being black, will "soak up the heat" it softens in sunny hot weather and becomes very sticky, generally creating a huge mess. For this reason, tarred iron fittings and ordinance were often left to "dry" and then painted over with black paint (originally made of turpentine, linseed oil, and lampblack.)  Tarring and painting cannon balls prevented their rusting and thereby eliminated tedious hours spent cleaning rust off the balls, a rust-free ball being essential for accuracy at range. 

 

I hope this answers some of your questions.

[G. Delacroix]

On 11/26/2021 at 10:02 AM, Clark said:

I just saw that an old discussion is being reignited. In this context, I have a question for the experts.In the case of ships from the Mediterranean region (xebecs, galleys), the standing rigging is also modeled light. Is this correct?

Clark

 

Hello,

 

Except for the anchor ropes and the shrouds (I'll spare you the Mediterranean terms), the rigging of the galleys is exclusively made of high quality natural hemp and not tarred. The process of obtaining hemp fibers is more elaborate and results in more refined ropes, with longer fibers and less dust, wood remains or little oakum. This rope is called "white rope" in opposition to the tarred rope which is dark. This white rope is obviously not white but straw colored as it has been said.
The white rope is imperatively used for galleys because it has an advantage: its resistance is one third higher than the tarred rope or, if you prefer, a tarred rope loses one third of its resistance by the tar applied to it. This implies that for equivalent strength, a white rope is less thick than a tarred rope and therefore lighter and, as in a galley, the weight and strength is very important given the size of the sails, white rope is preferred.

The galleys do not sail in winter (only from May to November) which avoids the problems of bad weather on the not tarred ropes. 
For the chebecs whose rigging has approximately the same characteristics although of lower size, I think that the same type of white rope was used.

 

GD

 

[Roger Pellett]

Homer repeatedly says that ancient galleys were rigged with plaited oxide.

[wefalck]

ox-hide ?

[Roger Pellett]

I just finished reading the Odyssey.  It is a translation into English from available manuscripts, maintaining the hexameter poetic format.  Others can debate the accuracy of this particular translation.  In Homer’s time, galley navigation consisted of a series of short segments with vessels beached between each segment; usually overnight.  When beached the mast was unstepped.  Each time the galley resumed its voyage, Homer says that the mast was stepped and the plaited oxhide shrouds rigged.  Homer often uses adjectives to maintain poetic meter; Odysseus is often referred to as “God Like Odysseus”,  but he must have had some some basis for his plaited oxhide rigging.

 

 

[wefalck]

Oxhide ropes were used well into the 19th century, particularly in applications when low-stretch ropes are required.

 

Did read part of the Odyssey at school in the original language

 

[G. Delacroix]

I was referring of course to the galleys of the "modern" era, i.e. the 17 th and 18 th centuries. Homer's galleys are far too old for us to know much about their technical features.

[Bob Cleek]

9 hours ago, G. Delacroix said:

 

Hello,

 

Except for the anchor ropes and the shrouds (I'll spare you the Mediterranean terms), the rigging of the galleys is exclusively made of high quality natural hemp and not tarred. The process of obtaining hemp fibers is more elaborate and results in more refined ropes, with longer fibers and less dust, wood remains or little oakum. This rope is called "white rope" in opposition to the tarred rope which is dark. This white rope is obviously not white but straw colored as it has been said.
The white rope is imperatively used for galleys because it has an advantage: its resistance is one third higher than the tarred rope or, if you prefer, a tarred rope loses one third of its resistance by the tar applied to it. This implies that for equivalent strength, a white rope is less thick than a tarred rope and therefore lighter and, as in a galley, the weight and strength is very important given the size of the sails, white rope is preferred.

The galleys do not sail in winter (only from May to November) which avoids the problems of bad weather on the not tarred ropes. 
For the chebecs whose rigging has approximately the same characteristics although of lower size, I think that the same type of white rope was used.

 

GD

 

I know next to nothing about the period Mediterranean vella Latina vessels mentioned, but I do think, perhaps, though I'm not positive, that you may be confusing hemp and flax rope in distinguishing between "white" and "tarred rope. I'm not sure there was ever a distinction between "white" (untarred) rope and "tarred rope" in the way you are explaining. I've always understood that all "working rope" (as opposed to ornamental rope) was lightly tarred in the manufacturing process for the purpose of providing resistance to weathering. I believe hemp rope is stronger than flax (linen) rope because it can be given a harder twist and being oiled doesn't enter into it, but I could be wrong. It wouldn't be the first time.  

[mtaylor]

13 hours ago, Dr PR said:

One thing that hasn't been mentioned is that the (relatively) long chain hydrocarbons in turpentine and tar have antibiotic effects. I'm not sure what the specific mode of action is (it has been a very long time since I studied this), but possibly it interferes with cell membrane integrity. This is something sailors of old wouldn't have had a clue about, but tarring the natural fiber rigging would protect it from microbial degradation.

 

I'm trying to remember where I read it but apparently turpentine was used on wounds.  I'll have to find that reference and see if pine tar is mentioned.  There might be an association by observing whose hands/feet became infected and whose didn't.... climbing the rigging barefoot vs shoes.

[wefalck]

Today, genuine turpentine, the one sapped from certain species of pine trees is considered cancerogenic and rarely used anymore by painters etc. The production process is very labour-intensive and it is therefore expensive. Southwestern France was the major producer in Europe, I think.

 

I am not a biochemist or microbiologist, so I may not be entirely correct here, but I think many of the polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons contained in trees have antimicrobial effects, they are a sort of self-defence o the trees against microbial attacks. People have recognised this a long time ago and the tars were used to dress wounds, particularly also burns. Tar-based ointments were/are also used against microbially caused skin conditions, but I am not sure whether this is pine- or coal-tar, or perhaps both.

[G. Delacroix]

10 hours ago, Bob Cleek said:

 

Je ne sais presque rien de la période mentionnée par les navires méditerranéens vella Latina, mais je pense, peut-être, bien que je ne sois pas sûr, que vous confondez peut-être la corde de chanvre et la corde de lin en faisant la distinction entre « blanc » et « corde goudronnée. » ne suis pas sûr qu'il y avait toujours une distinction entre la corde « blanche » (goudronnées) et « corde goudronnée » dans la façon dont vous expliquez. Je l' ai toujours compris que tout « corde de travail » (par opposition à la corde d' ornement) a été légèrement goudronnée  en le processus de fabrication  dans le but de fournir une résistance aux intempéries.Je pense que la corde de chanvre est plus solide que la corde de lin (lin) car elle peut être torsadée plus fort et être huilée n'y entre pas, mais je peux me tromper.Ce serait ce ne sera pas la première fois. 

I can assure you that what is called white rope in the 17th and 18th centuries is indeed a hemp rope without tar. No marine rigging treatise of that time mentions linen rope.
The process and considerations I have written about are well described in the texts about galleys.

[Bob Cleek]

1 hour ago, G. Delacroix said:

I can assure you that what is called white rope in the 17th and 18th centuries is indeed a hemp rope without tar. No marine rigging treatise of that time mentions linen rope.
The process and considerations I have written about are well described in the texts about galleys.

I'll buy that. Untarred hemp rope is still made. I've handled some hemp buds that were pretty sticky, too.   

 

I believe, however, that we are in agreement, actually. As you say, "This rope is called "white rope" in opposition to the tarred rope which is dark. This white rope is obviously not white but straw colored as it has been said." It's a linguistic difference, I think. The hemp used to make marine rope was generally run through a bath of thinned pine tar before it was laid up on the rope walk. This resulted in its color being exactly as you describe, "straw colored." Hemp rope that is used for standing rigging is coated with thick pine tar in use to preserve it. This tar coating is reapplied about every six months and soon results in a very dark, virtually black, color. So, to put a finer point on it, the fibers are run through a thinned hot tar bath before the rope is made and this results in the "straw colored" rope. When that straw colored rope, which was called "white rope" by the French, was tarred by applying thick tar to it, it became "dark rope."

 

Hemp rope that has not been treated with pine tar before being laid up looks white, like this:

 

[G. Delacroix]

In France but I imagine also in the other countries of Europe and I specify well in the 17th and 18th century, it is the basic thread, taken out of the winding-machine of the spinning mill which is tarred (with hot pine tar) before before the confection of the final rope. It thus presents a brown-red color. Only one thread is not tarred in the final rope, it allows to recognize the ropes belonging to the king.
The threads of the white rope are not treated with tar at all, so it keeps the natural color of the hemp. It is called "white" in comparison with the tarred rope which is dark.

In big ships, only the wheel-rope is made of white rope because of its resistance and the confidence that one grants to him.

 

Edited November 28, 2021 by G. Delacroix

[Clark]

On 11/27/2021 at 11:42 AM, G. Delacroix said:

 

Hello,

 

Except for the anchor ropes and the shrouds (I'll spare you the Mediterranean terms), the rigging of the galleys is exclusively made of high quality natural hemp and not tarred. The process of obtaining hemp fibers is more elaborate and results in more refined ropes, with longer fibers and less dust, wood remains or little oakum. This rope is called "white rope" in opposition to the tarred rope which is dark. This white rope is obviously not white but straw colored as it has been said.
The white rope is imperatively used for galleys because it has an advantage: its resistance is one third higher than the tarred rope or, if you prefer, a tarred rope loses one third of its resistance by the tar applied to it. This implies that for equivalent strength, a white rope is less thick than a tarred rope and therefore lighter and, as in a galley, the weight and strength is very important given the size of the sails, white rope is preferred.

The galleys do not sail in winter (only from May to November) which avoids the problems of bad weather on the not tarred ropes. 
For the chebecs whose rigging has approximately the same characteristics although of lower size, I think that the same type of white rope was used.

 

GD

 

Hello Gerard,
thank you very much for the detailed answer, which really helped me and removed many uncertainties. I had so far relied on von Mondfeld with his special editions on the galleys and the ships of the Mediterranean. However, he is less informative here than with his other books. Also congratulations on the galleys video (La Fleur de Lis) which helps explain a lot.
Clark

[G. Delacroix]

Hello,

 

Thank you for your compliments. The video of La Fleur de Lis is a kind of synthesis of this monograph in which I tried to describe the galleys of the late 17th century as well as possible. Nearly fifteen years of research and study (interrupted, of course, by other monographs) have made it possible to present these ships that are so particular and ultimately endearing when one is interested in them. 

 

 

GD