Is there a Boudriot's 74 Gun Ship in "kit" form???

[Michael Scarborough]

Greetings all,

 

Does anyone make a kit similar to what Chuck is doing with the Medway Longboat, the Winnie and Speedy for a model of the ship portrayed in Jean Boudriot's 74 Gun Ship? At least parts for the frames, keel etc.? 

 

Cheers from NYC,

Michael 

[Jaager]

Michael,

Even if you find one - and there is a "kit" of a Sane 74 @ 1:75  - you don't really want it!  Given your skill level - think emoji of pinched nose/bad smell.

[Michael Scarborough]

3 hours ago, Jaager said:

Michael,

Even if you find one - and there is a "kit" of a Sane 74 @ 1:75  - you don't really want it!  Given your skill level - think emoji of pinched nose/bad smell.

Well, I appreciate the kind reference to my skill level but I am otherwise confused. Remember, this is all new to me so I'm not sure what would stink but please let me know so I can avoid stepping in it! LOL!

 

I mentioned a "kit", like those that Chuck produces, as I have sold all my woodworking machinery and have said goodbye to large amounts of saw dust making.  I know many guys are not fans of kits, per se, likening them to plastic models with all the parts already there for you.  Frankly, at this point in life, that really appeals to me. I know it's not what the majority of modelers want but it works for me. In 21 years of woodworking, I've had 85 hours weeks, huge amounts of saw dust to dispose of  and three trips to the hand surgeon. The joy I felt last weekend when all I needed to do was open a box and start assembling extremely well engineered and well made parts is something I look forward to repeating. I've had all four volumes of Boudriot's books on my shelf since they were released and have fantasized about building that ship. If someone makes some of the basic parts, as well as Chuck makes the parts for the Medway Longboat, that is what I'm looking for. 

 

As I said, I'm new to all this so don't yet know what's available, so maybe this will remain a fantasy. 

 

Any thoughts much appreciated!

 

Cheers from NYC,

Michael 

[mtaylor]

A 74 gun ship and not the ship's boats, correct?   Looking for French or English? Also, what scale?  I know of one kit for an English 74 that is a POB not a POF.  See CAF models (a sponsor).   There are others if I remember right that all POB with varying scales, quality, and accuracy.

 

 A search in the kit area for "74 gun" or "3rd Rate" may give you some logs.

[Michael Scarborough]

1 hour ago, mtaylor said:

A 74 gun ship and not the ship's boats, correct?   Looking for French or English? Also, what scale? 

 

As (in my fantasy world) I'm looking to recreate the actual ship presented in Boudriot's 4 volume books, I'd be looking for a French 74 Gun ship in a "large" scale. This query began as a lunch time whim so I've not done the math. How large a model would a French 74 be in 1:48 scale? LARGE, I assume. 

 

[Jaager]

I thought that you  kept a lot of your tools.  That you could start with scratch building from the start,

Some of us make more of a racket, but it is my perception that kit adherents far out number scratch builders here.  So if doing a kit is your goal, you will be in the majority.

In that case a reading of the post For Beginners -- A Cautionary Tale   may save a misstep.

 

Experience with plastic kits can give you an inaccurate expectation for what a wooden kit supplies - although the laser cut parts of recent kits are narrowing the gap.  Except for the finish, a plastic kit tends to be a world unto itself and the instructions reflect this.

A wood kit is not assembly so much as it is fabrication of multiple sub components and then assembly of them.  Any kit will have much in common with every other kit as far as the skills and techniques used and needed for the fabrication.  It is boring and redundant and kinda silly to include those common skills and techniques in every set of kit instructions.  Most mfg. tend not to do it.   A wooden kit tends to be a small room in a huge structure.   To be successful it almost always requires starting small and simple and progressing up with the accretion  of skills and knowledge.  Then one day you wake up and know you can do any of it.

It is possible to start big and learn as you go.   This usually means a lot longer time spent on one vessel,  stops and starts as you learn to do each interval, having parts that you wish you had done better, or discarding a kit part mistake and replacing it with a scratch built part.   A large and complicated subject for a first one can be overwhelming when viewed as a whole and many give up.  Starting small helps in being able to see the project as a series of easily done small increments.  Even with a scratch project, if you make the mistake of viewing it as one big job, it can make you want to stop and go do something else.

 

 

 

[Michael Scarborough]

Just came across this review of a plan set. Clearly, someone has built this ship in scale. Let me say again, I'm new here and am not aware of what has been and what has NOT been done so apologies if this is all old news.

 

Thanks!

[Michael Scarborough]

3 minutes ago, Jaager said:

  To be successful it almost always requires starting small and simple and progressing up with the accretion  of skills and knowledge.  Then one day you wake up and know you can do any of it.

 

Thanks for these very helpful words of wisdom. 

 

As I said, this post started as a lunch time "I wonder if.." whim. I'm just thinking way ahead. 

 

I will do nothing else until I've finished Chuck's Medway Longboat. I suspect I will do his Cheerful after that, and maybe also the Barge. I intend to develop my skills with each, increasingly difficult, project. If, once all those projects are completed I am having as much fun as I think I will have, and if the urge is still there, then, maybe, I'd jump into the large projects of a 74 Gun Frigate. If someone has not made laser cut frames and keel parts available by then, then I'd probably buy a scroll saw and jump in.  My machinery all went out of here in one fell swoop in August and, for the moment, at least, I am really enjoying the lack of saw dust and morphing what was my shop/studio into a working den. I will definitely be getting s Byrnes table saw and a Sherline lathe, as I have a number of additional, fully furnished box dioramas planned. I still be a woodworker...just not in 1/1 scale.

 

I appreciate the input and ideas.

 

Cheers from NYC,

Michael

[Jaager]

2 minutes ago, Michael Scarborough said:

How large a model would a French 74 be in 1:48 scale?

A Sane 74  (one of 120 that were built) was ~ 172' x 46'  just the main hull  @ 1:48   close to 4 feet long and one foot wide.  You add spars and it is significantly longer.

The Boudriot 74 series  started, I think as an anatomy book and not oriented to a modeler.  The complete internal detail led some modelers to replicate all of it - as a stunt and to show off.  The latter worked too well because now it has become a sort of fad and expectation.  Doing the guts along with the rest, that is.

To quote Chris Rock:  "Sure you can do it, but that doesn't mean that it is a good idea."

[mtaylor]

48 minutes ago, Michael Scarborough said:

 

As (in my fantasy world) I'm looking to recreate the actual ship presented in Boudriot's 4 volume books, I'd be looking for a French 74 Gun ship in a "large" scale. This query began as a lunch time whim so I've not done the math. How large a model would a French 74 be in 1:48 scale? LARGE, I assume. 

 

 Ah... there's a number of scratch build French 74's but I know of no kit.  The only 74 I've run across is the English one I mentioned earlier.  At 1:48, Jaager is spot on the size.  Naturally there's bit of + or - depending on the plan set.  I'd have to check ANCRE to see if they have something besides their 4 book set on the generic 74 but it would be a scratch build. 

[Dziadeczek]

Hi Michael,

I am scratchbuilding this exact model in the same 1:48 scale, following the books by J. Boudriot.

It is a BIIIG puppy! If you want me to send you exact dimentions, I willl do it. Suffice it to say now, you would absolutely neccesarily need a separate space (a workshop of some kind) to build it. Kitchen table will not do it!!! And prepare yourself for YEARS of work!

If you want to build it exactly like the books describe it, it is a monumental task! But, it is doable, especially now that the addendum (all frame profiles and the keel) is available from Ancre. When I started to build it, this addendum was not available, so I had to hand draw all missing profiles, since Boudriot only shows the so called, station frames (every 4th). It took a long time to draw all of them by hand, since I did not own a computer program.

There is LOOOOTS of wood cutting, sanding and glueing, so several power tools are a must!

 

Right now I am approaching the running rigging stage and sewing sails from thin muslin.  Here is a handful of randomly selected pics of this model.

Regards,

Thomas

Edited January 5, 2022 by Dziadeczek

[Michael Scarborough]

I'm getting balled up in my responses here...apologies if I missed someone's reply or am repeating myself.

 

I tried using the analogy of the "kits" Chuck Passaro produces but I seem to have missed the mark. Perhaps I should rephrase and simply ask, "if I want to build a French 74 in 1:48 scale, is there someone set up to laser cut the frames and keel parts for me...the rest I will scratch build".  As I said, this is just a long held idea that surfaced during lunch. 

 

Thomas, I commend you on the amount of work you've accomplished. Bravo. As I mentioned in my self-introduction last week, I've just retired from 21 years of making furniture and memorials on commission. I've sold off all my machinery and will slowly reacquire smaller tools as I need them. What was my shop is now becoming my art studio/shop/den, besides which I have a smaller space solely for model building. I'm going to complete several of Chuck Passaro's "kits". If I still have the urge to tackle this mammoth project of a model, you'll be hearing from me.

 

Thanks everyone for the help.

 

Cheers from NYC,

Michael

[mtaylor]

What you're suggesting may not be a bad way to go if there's someone willing to do the bulkheads/frames.  With the addendum to the 4 volume set, it might be worth a look at it and see.  You'd probably have to copy the plans for those drawings, convert to some CAD program and then find someone to do custom cutting of the parts.  A lot simpler than doing everything from scratch, etc.   

 

I paused, made a call... there are laser cutting firms who could do this but for a fee.   As long as there's no mods to the plans for the parts you want cut, they will do all the conversions, etc. and cut some plywood or other wood.   We didn't go into detail as to costs though.   Check with some of the laser cutter places where you are.

[Jaager]

Chuck and the other kit suppliers that are mostly anchored here are what I term boutiques.  They are in it for the love of it as much as anything else.  The quality of the materials and attention to detail are very different from the Europe based kit manufacturers. 

Glossy pictures of a first rate or third rate and advertising copy that suggests that anyone can build a masterpiece with no more prior knowledge than what is necessary to assemble a plastic kit - usually seductive and the focus is on how wonderful the finished ship will be.   These kits have little in common with a kit from a boutique.  

Model Shipways and Blue Jacket are not exactly boutiques, but their products are quality,  It is prudent to take note of their suggestion as to skill level required and to be painfully sober about how you access your skill level.

 

A high volume of sawdust is mostly a part of larger scale scratch POF.

IF you become obsessed with milling your own stock from  - say 8x4 rough lumber - you will kick yourself if you had a 14" bandsaw and sold it.  If you sold a 10" or 12" table saw - that is for the best - enjoy having all of your fingers.   

An edger would be nice, but it not necessary.  I have never found the need to use a router. You will not need a planner with a blade -  A Byrnes thickness sander is almost a necessity if you need to produce custom thickness stock.  Now that machine generates sawdust!  The design has pretty much all of the sawdust going to the cyclone trap in line with absolutely necessary shop vac.  The Byrnes table saw needs the vac attached too.  And so does the 5" disk sander.

Unless you are fabricating your own metal tools, there are only a few jobs for a mill or a lathe to do with a ship model.  And most all of those jobs can be done using a 1/2" drill fixed on its back in a jig. 

[GrandpaPhil]

The Triton Group Build on this forum gets you access to a full set of drawings for a British 28 gun frigate in both POB and POF.

 

That would be a great way to learn to build a frame model.

 

The way the drawings are set up, they could be taken to a shop that does laser cutting and be cut out from wood.
 

I don’t know what they charge to cut the parts out.

 

But, that would be a great way to learn, and relatively inexpensive.

[Michael Scarborough]

1 hour ago, mtaylor said:

I paused, made a call...

Mark, I really appreciate your doing this for me and anyone else who might be interested. Thanks! As I've said, if this were to happen it would be way down the line but it's nice to know it's doable.

 

Cheers from NYC (Where lots of people are happy to take a guy's money for laser cutting and all sorts of other mania),

Michael

[grsjax]

The CAF model of Bellona is about as good as it gets for a kit.  Expensive at $1500+ including shipping but CAF models are worth what they cost.  Also very big at nearly 5ft long for the finished model.  Going to need a dedicated space and set aside a few years for this one.

[Michael Scarborough]

13 hours ago, grsjax said:

The CAF model of Bellona is about as good as it gets for a kit.  Expensive at $1500+ including shipping but CAF models are worth what they cost.  Also very big at nearly 5ft long for the finished model.  Going to need a dedicated space and set aside a few years for this one.

That is quite a model! Space and time, indeed! Thanks for introducing me to CAF....although some aspects of their website are a tad confusing. Seasons? Do I take it that with these kits not all the parts come at one time? 

 

Cheers from NYC,

Michael

[Michael Scarborough]

14 hours ago, Jaager said:

you will kick yourself if you had a 14" bandsaw and sold it.

I did...a nice Laguna. I had a full shop including a Powermatic 3 hp table saw and Oneway 1640 lathe. But building furniture and an altar that was 14' high, or the frame for the HUGE Quilt that is now at Arlington in a shop that is 13' X 15' is no fun. I do not regret my decision to sell everything off. I know it will cost to buy dimensioned lumber but, to me, at least, it will be worth it. 

 

Thanks for the heads up on the Boutique kit manufacturers.  The guidance is much appreciated.

 

Cheers from NYC,

Michael

 

[Michael Scarborough]

13 hours ago, GrandpaPhil said:

The Triton Group Build on this forum gets you access to a full set of drawings for a British 28 gun frigate in both POB and POF.

 

GrandpaPhil, thank you for this valuable bit of info. For one thing, you and the other gents are certainly helping me find my way around the website. It's also clear that there are many options available for someone wading into the deeper water of model ship building. And help and guidance seem readily available, as well. All much appreciated.

 

Cheers from NYC,

Michael

 

[grsjax]

4 hours ago, Michael Scarborough said:

Do I take it that with these kits not all the parts come at one time?

Some of their larger kits can be bought in stages.  I think the Bellona is only available as a complete kit at this time.  The owner of CAF is on this forum so you could contact him and ask.  Here is a build log for the CAF Bellona https://modelshipworld.com/topic/29729-hms-bellona-by-yves-vidal-caf-model-148/

 

Edited January 5, 2022 by grsjax

[mtaylor]

5 hours ago, Michael Scarborough said:

That is quite a model! Space and time, indeed! Thanks for introducing me to CAF....although some aspects of their website are a tad confusing. Seasons? Do I take it that with these kits not all the parts come at one time? 

 

Cheers from NYC,

Michael

I think he meant "sessions" as these are actually stages as such.  You can buy either all at once or separately.

 

5 hours ago, Michael Scarborough said:

GrandpaPhil, thank you for this valuable bit of info. For one thing, you and the other gents are certainly helping me find my way around the website. It's also clear that there are many options available for someone wading into the deeper water of model ship building. And help and guidance seem readily available, as well. All much appreciated.

 

Cheers from NYC,

Michael

 

 

Welcome to the rabbit hole.   It's a deep one with lots of side holes to dive into.  You might consider the Triton cross section also as a learning tool.  

[Michael Scarborough]

18 hours ago, mtaylor said:

I think he meant "sessions" as these are actually stages as such.  You can buy either all at once or separately.

Thanks, Mark. I kinda figured that was what it meant. On one model it was "sessions", on another, "seasons".

 

Rabbit Hole, indeed! I started the Hahn schooner in 1987 and bought every book I could find on ship model building. Just got started and then had to move to LA. I ended up traveling so much that I thought I'd never build that model and sold all the books. Every side tunnel I take in this rabbit hole seems to remind me of yet another book I wish I'd kept!  

 

The Triton does indeed look like a great project. I'm going to finish up this Medway Longboat and see where I stand. 

 

I appreciate the feedback, Mark.

 

Cheers from NYC,

Michael