English Pinnace by rudybob - Model Shipways - Scale 1:24

[rudybob]

Hello. Doing a build log requires time which I have. I don't know about my skill level at writing or building except to write it isn't there yet, if ever. I do enjoy both and and want to advance my abilities with each project, whatever media. I did a build log on an airplane once and I found it wanting at the end. I will do better here.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 22, 2022 by rudybob
typo

[DanB]

I am really new to this and still learning. I have found that soaking the planks, bending them in to position and using rubber bands and clips to attach them to the boat and then allowing them to dry to shape works well.  A hair dryer will speed up the drying and can also be used to tune up the curves by wetting the outside of the plank again and hitting with  more hot air from the hair drier. 

 

Dan

[rudybob]

9 hours ago, DanB said:

I am really new to this and still learning. I have found that soaking the planks, bending them in to position and using rubber bands and clips to attach them to the boat and then allowing them to dry to shape works well.  A hair dryer will speed up the drying and can also be used to tune up the curves by wetting the outside of the plank again and hitting with  more hot air from the hair drier. 

 

Dan

Great Tips! I will see what I can do with rubber bands. I have had no luck with the clips. Thanks

[rudybob]

On this model I promised myself I would work on it daily if at all possible. One day off can turn into a week far to easy then I forget what I had been thinking and planning. A few days back I was looking at the included directions and I saw one of the strakes bent around a bottle cap. I grabbed a Vernor's bottle cap and it matched the bow curve pretty well. I held that cap up to the plans and marked that cap in a matching arc. It fits pretty well. Good tip there. 

 

At least for the top strake the length and bend can be taken directly from the plans. I scanned the sheet and now have something I can cut and from the cut picture I can make a jig to get my top strake bends as accurate as I can. Everything flows from the initial build and since I have done such a poor job to this point I want my top strakes as accurate as possible. I will spend the time to see if my scheme bears results. I don't like wasting time and this may end up as wasted time but I won't know that until I try. Time to watch hockey and eat brownies 

[rudybob]

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Edited April 22, 2022 by rudybob

[rudybob]

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Edited April 22, 2022 by rudybob

[allanyed]

Rudy,

Great progress!

This is more of a curiosity thing for me as many build logs show planking that looks to be about 6 inches wide whereas it was normally closer to 9 inches (0.375" at your scale) based on the few contemporary drawings I have seen.   Most contemporary drawings show only lines or inboard profiles, but there are a few that do show planking including at least one in W.E. Mays The Boats of Men of War.  Do your plans give a width via a drawing or text?  I have never found scantlings for the width of the bottom planking, only the few contemporary drawings.  I also checked a half dozen contemporary contracts for ships' boats and none of these give the width of the bottom strakes. but would love to hear about a contemporary source if anyone has these. 

Thanks

Allan

 

Edited March 10, 2022 by allanyed

[rudybob]

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Edited April 22, 2022 by rudybob
typo

[rudybob]

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Edited April 22, 2022 by rudybob

[rudybob]

Not much time for working on the pinnace because it was chimney cleaning day. Worth it. The time I had was well spent. Now that I have fit the sheers so many times I see better where I over faired. This models bulkheads were not cut square when I look down them vertically so they need some fairing that way as well.  

 

I need direct window daylight for best vision so I had no opportunity to continue work on rabbet making. Maybe tomorrow

[starlight]

On 3/26/2022 at 10:00 PM, rudybob said:

One of several mistakes I made was overdoing my fairing. Is there a rule of thumb?

 

Hi Rudy, in general you should leave one edge as-is and chamfer the other edge. If the bulkheads are laser cut you can use the laser char as a visual guide, i.e. leave just a tiny sliver of char.

 

I made a quick drawing which I hope will help. In grey is the bulkhead before fairing, in black is after.

 

 

Cheers,

starlight

[rudybob]

1 hour ago, starlight said:

 

Hi Rudy, in general you should leave one edge as-is and chamfer the other edge. If the bulkheads are laser cut you can use the laser char as a visual guide, i.e. leave just a tiny sliver of char.

 

I made a quick drawing which I hope will help. In grey is the bulkhead before fairing, in black is after.

 

 

Cheers,

starlight

Thanks!! Great Just Great. That data is hard to find. I found this. Is it correct, one direction only?  And what is being illustrated with the file direction?  

Edited March 31, 2022 by rudybob

[bruce d]

7 hours ago, rudybob said:

what is being illustrated with the file direction?  

The file is being drawn across the end grain. It would dig in and tear the wood if used in the opposite direction. 

May I suggest a quick practice with any old scrap wood laying around? Pretty sure it will be clear and become natural as soon as you get started. 

HTH 

Bruce 

[rudybob]

3 hours ago, bruce d said:

The file is being drawn across the end grain. It would dig in and tear the wood if used in the opposite direction. 

May I suggest a quick practice with any old scrap wood laying around? Pretty sure it will be clear and become natural as soon as you get started. 

HTH 

Bruce 

I understand the arrows now. Thanks Man!

[rudybob]

Having a heck of a time coming up  with the " impossible to bend that severe a curve on the end of the strip." bend. This is something I need to get right. 

It'll either happen or it won't. I'll keep trying.  I LOL at some of my bends. 

 

On the follow up build I have formed the rabbet pretty good. Model Shipways replied that they are sending my part request to shipping. 

 

I look back on this log and I have a good time laughing at myself. I am sure there is more of that to come.

 

I bought some tools. I seen in many build logs tools used to ensure something is straight and square. I picked up a couple 1-2-3 blocks and a machinist square. Both will be of tremendous help on this project and other crafts. For as much time as I think I have spent on the pinnace I ain't getting very far and I sure like shopping for clamps

 

 

 

Edited April 22, 2022 by rudybob

[allanyed]

A lot of the things we do on our models are frustrating to say the least.  You are a member of an extraordinarily  large club when it comes

to frustration😀.

 

Regarding the tapering and shaping of the planking, have you studied the planking tutorials by Antscherl and the edge bending methods by Passaro?  These apply even for boats, not just ships' hulls.

 

Allan

[rudybob]

On 4/11/2022 at 7:10 AM, allanyed said:

A lot of the things we do on our models are frustrating to say the least.  You are a member of an extraordinarily  large club when it comes

to frustration😀.

 

Regarding the tapering and shaping of the planking, have you studied the planking tutorials by Antscherl and the edge bending methods by Passaro?  These apply even for boats, not just ships' hulls.

 

Allan

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Edited April 22, 2022 by rudybob

[starlight]

Rudy,

 

Success without challenge is hollow. It's good to tackle projects above your skill level, because that's the only way to learn. I wouldn't worry about how long it takes you to do things. At the end of the day, modelmaking is an intensely personal hobby. Only you can set the schedule and goals for yourself. The best thing to do is to treat each stage of the build as a project in itself. If you can learn to celebrate after each and every plank goes on your model, you will always feel fulfilled.

 

Philosophy aside, let's take a look at the technical problems you're having. Have you lined off your hull with tick strips? Are you comfortable tapering and edge bending the planks? From Blue Ensign's excellent build log, he provides this picture which I think fully illustrates what needs to be done:

 

 

As you can see, each plank has to vary in width along its length (which you do by lining off the hull and tapering the plank), and also be curved while flat so that it can follow the hull's 3D curvature (which you do by edge bending). Once you have the plank in this state, it should be much easier to curve and twist it against the bulkheads. This is probably the hardest thing to understand in all of model ship building, so it's only natural to struggle here. I know I did. Just remember that there are many people here on MSW that are here to help.

 

-starlight

[rudybob]

6 hours ago, starlight said:

Rudy,

 

Success without challenge is hollow. It's good to tackle projects above your skill level, because that's the only way to learn. I wouldn't worry about how long it takes you to do things. At the end of the day, modelmaking is an intensely personal hobby. Only you can set the schedule and goals for yourself. The best thing to do is to treat each stage of the build as a project in itself. If you can learn to celebrate after each and every plank goes on your model, you will always feel fulfilled.

 

Philosophy aside, let's take a look at the technical problems you're having. Have you lined off your hull with tick strips? Are you comfortable tapering and edge bending the planks? From Blue Ensign's excellent build log, he provides this picture which I think fully illustrates what needs to be done:

 

 

As you can see, each plank has to vary in width along its length (which you do by lining off the hull and tapering the plank), and also be curved while flat so that it can follow the hull's 3D curvature (which you do by edge bending). Once you have the plank in this state, it should be much easier to curve and twist it against the bulkheads. This is probably the hardest thing to understand in all of model ship building, so it's only natural to struggle here. I know I did. Just remember that there are many people here on MSW that are here to help.

 

-starlight

 

 

Thank You for the reply.

 

I agree with your first paragraph. I spent 11 years on the NY Pilot Boat and I would have dropped this build otherwise. If there was a time limit I might do better. HA!! I set schedules and am way behind on this one.

 

 

I was not clear enough in my post. I can bend and trim planks and have them fit nicely. I have ticked the bulkheads.

 

Post #30 in Blue Ensign's log,

"It is the short curve at the bow that has defeated me using just water and heat; aft of the first three bulkheads the treatment works fine to achieve the more gentle 'S' curve.

On your original Pinnace build, where I think you just used water and heat to achieve the shape, did you have to start the short bow curve well back in a longer length of strip to give you the leverage to form the bend?" 

 

 

Chuck replied, 

"Yes indeed....it is impossible to bend that severe a curve on the end of the strip.   The curve was made closer to the middle and then the excess snipped off and discarded.  "

 

Chuck linked to his barge build and on pg 12 of the pdf is the picture I posted where the problem Blue Ensign had and I am having is addressed.

http://modelshipworldforum.com/resources/Barge instructions.pdf

 

 

 

I can make the acute bend but I cannot make the acute bend and the twist needed to go along with the lateral bending all at the same time

I do not follow Chuck's explanation and was hoping someone could help me out. His planks are pre-bent (see picture 2) The planks I have are not pre-bent though I can and have bent them like Chuck's but I still am not up to speed and need further clarification. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[starlight]

Rudy,

 

I'm not exactly sure what you're struggling with. You say that you can get the acute bend, so I assume you understand the whole business about doing the bend in the middle of a plank and then snipping off the excess.

 

Now, if your plank is tapered and edge-bent properly, and you have a good rabbet (which it seems you do), the plank should bite into the rabbet and you can get the twist by simply pressing the plank up to each bulkhead. Or you can do what Chuck does and pre-twist the plank off of the model. Are you finding it difficult to actually twist the plank?

 

-starlight

 

 

[rudybob]

It has been quite a process. First let me state that when you read that laying planks isn't hard don't believe that. It is a difficult process.
There is not only the bending which is the most difficult there are many other considerations. I read that forced clamping isn't necessary when the plank is correctly bent. 
Well that's true and a goal to strive for which I have. 

The shear on the pinnace is a very difficult bend. There is an edge bend, a twist and a curve all to be made in a short space. I enjoyed reading and trying all the methods
at this forum. In my case the hardest part was to keep the shear's lower edge flat on the first 3 or 4 bulkheads as I curved it around the bow. The edge bend gets the shear to lie flat. In the subsequent process of putting in the twist and bend I have been unable to create a plank that I can get to lie flat along all the bulkheads AND keep the previously made edge bend like it needs to be.

I shaped the plank to lie flat along the first four bulkheads. I also shaped it to generally follow the hulls course to the stern. After gluing down the shear on the first four bulkheads I wet the plank and shaped it to fit the rest of the way and clamped. 

[rudybob]

It has taken me awhile to get to this point. Some days only one bulkhead got placed. I settled on Gorilla wood glue because it dissolves nicely to fix poor placement. 

These are the tools I used to align the bulkheads. It's as good as I can do. Some bulkheads fit well right off others not so swell.

Next up will be a scheme to support the bulkheads for ticking and fairing. 

[Oldsalt1950]

Looking good. Schedules go out the window as soon as the first bulkhead is put in place. You will find as you progress that some tasks will take much longer than expected, and others just seem to fly by. Go at whatever pace works for you. Some days you may build other days you may read a build log for insight. It will all come together. I just received my pinnace kit, it awaits my finishing another build . May you have fair wind and following seas in your build.

 

Jim

[EricWilliamMarshall]

Well done so far!!

[rudybob]

7 hours ago, EricWilliamMarshall said:

Well done so far!!

Thank You. Second try at it. The first was quite bad. The pinnace is on the shelf until fall. I spent about 3 months working on the planking and it was very hard for me to get the bow bend. I think it will be easier with my new and improved frame but I am not confident I will get "the bend".  Maybe all I really needed to do was leave it for a spell and when I go back to it I may have forgotten my bad habits

 

[rudybob]

After seven and 1/2 months and I am back to it. I will do the bulkhead bracing a step or two at a time until I am satisfied with the firmness. My previous attempt taught me to brace in shorter well glued lengths that  need conform to those adjoining bulkheads that are of the approximate same height. i.e. more well placed is better than fewer longer runs. This should only take me a day or two.

[rudybob]

I have the bulkheads braced. I wanted a good connection between the braces and the bulkheads. This time there aren't any that just look like they are connected. I left space along the outer edge for when I need to clamp. I will undoubtedly add more and different bracers when needed but I wasn't going to guess where I would need them. I will add them when I know.  The Jenga is stuck using double sided 3M foam tape. Skinny tape would not hold. This may not either but it will be good for now because I am going to work on ticking. I even bought some index cards. All previous materials I have tried for ticking didn't serve me well. The bulkheads are so darn thin it really makes it more difficult. I am working something out in my head to ease my pain. 

 

I want the bulkheads ticked before I fair. Sure some marks will get erased but I want the practice on a flat surface as opposed to a curved surface to get the tick marks down. They can be redrawn if need be.  

[rudybob]

40 years ago I walked out of an Organic Chemistry final exam. A guy from class asked me if I figured out the originating roadmap compound. Before I could speak he told me it was:

1,2,3,4,butyl Butyl Hydroxy Butyl etc etc etc. I told him that could be it but I got cyclohexane.

 

Working on this I think I am making it into 1,2,3,4,butyl Butyl Hydroxy Butyl etc etc etc. when it's just cyclohexane.  

 

Complete a step before moving to the next

[rudybob]

I have pretty much caught up on my second attempt to where on my first attempt I gave up because it was so bad.  

The bow filler pieces have been installed and will dry overnight. I can begin to fair tomorrow. I am going to bend a plank, see how it lies and fair accordingly. Well, My last scheme didn't work :-)

 

The problem with the first model was multifaceted which all led to the planks not lying proper and Lord knows what else They still won't but I am planking it anyhow for experience.

 

 

[rudybob]

As usual I got a bit ahead of myself. I forgot I was ticking the hull. I came across the Medway Longboat directions and the author writes that he ticks his hull on every build for all the obvious reasons. The build is similar enough to pinnace that I can work off it to tick. It is a process that may introduce error and in my case does. The bulkheads on the pinnace are quite narrow which makes it hard for me to lay cardstock or paper along them to get each length. What I did was cut my 3x5 index cards so the laid over two bulkheads, This gives me some support for getting an accurate length and after making the tick marks from the fan getting the marks on the bulkheads. If my length measurement is wrong then my ticks will be wrong. If my length is accurate then I must get the marks drawn properly on the bulkhead. Mostly I do. Once I get it all ticked I see where some tape laid on the marks will show me how I have done. I don't know if this whole process will do any good but it will teach me something, which is nice. I recall several suggestions from previous posts regarding ticking and will keep them in mind. It's a slow process and not really to be done without good light and a mind that isn't tired. I am almost half done.