US Brig Syren by rtropp - Model Shipways - 1:64

[rtropp]

I am about to show my lack of knowledge about power tools.  Please bear with me.

 

I am not familiar with milling.  I did some research on Youtube.  It seemed to be a lot of grinding and shaping metals, but I can see where it would apply to wood parts.  I need to try my hand at it to see how it works.  Then I could value the purchase. 

 

Right now I have Dremels. The Dremel workstation (rotary tool holder) looks similar to the Micromot drill stand. I do not know if the Dremel Workstation would take the Micromot compound table. I am checking in a few places to see if anyone knows of one for the Dremel. There are a bunch on Amazon, and less expensive,  but I am not sure if they will fit or have the same functions.  On Amazon, many are called x-y tables.   

 

I did not think of the table saw as a primary tool for kit building.  I thought it was used mostly for cutting wood sheets down to strips or for cutting larger pieces to usable sizes. I was not even sure it worked as a chop saw given the small size of the parts. I would appreciate if you could give me an idea of what you use it for in your Syren build.

 

I am disappointed to hear that the sander may not be very useful.  I had hoped it would be very useful for smoothing, shaping, and squaring parts, giving them additional "polish" to make up for my lack of manual dexterity.

 

Meanwhile, I am making progress on the upper planking and that is rewarding.  It just takes a long time to cut around the ports.  I had two layers that were just straight planks between ports.  Boy did that seem easy after all the shaping.  .

 

Thanks,

Richard

Edited August 30, 2013 by rtropp

[fnkershner]

Well I have to comment here. I do not have Dirk's skill. This is very obvious ffom his log. I also do not have his patience. I would say that my Jim Sander was my first power tool and still the one I use more than any other tool short of my battery operated Dremel. But I will agree that the Table saw is my next most valuable tool. I also have a drill press and X-Y table. I thought I would use this more than I have so far. I don't think you will use the band saw much unless you do scratch building. The same goes for a Mill. Mills can create just about any part you need. But they are expensive and then you need all the add-ons. There is another thread on this forum about Mills take a look. I can't speak to the Proxon. I swear by Jim's tools. I will have them right beside me in the coffin when the time comes.

 

Also you mention changing speed with the sander. I find that I change grit more than speed. So I like the constant speed.

Edited August 31, 2013 by Floyd Kershner

[ASAT]

I use my Byrnes table saw the most.... I also use the thickness sander alot.  The disc sander is a jewel.... I also have the proxxon wood mill and I have only used it a handful of times... If you ever progress beyond kits, or want to use upgraded wood to enhance a build you will be glad that Jim Byrnes is around.  I have abused his equipment for 10 plus years and they are still precision pieces of machinery - cant say enough good things about them. To see what is possible to achieve with those tools, see this thread,.....   http://modelshipworld.com/index.php?/topic/3345-harvey-by-asat-al-scale-150-kitbash/  all that wood was made using Jim Byrnes tools....

[rtropp]

_{Floyd, Asat,}

 

_{I appreciate the info.  Seems the table saw is much used.  As I wrote earlier, I had always thought the table saw was for cutting strips from sheets.  I am curious. What kinds of cutting gets the most use in kit building?}

 

_{I was using my jury rigged sander so much that replacing it with a proper tools seemed like a good idea.  I was concerned that the Byrnes sander did not have speed control.  It would seem useful to be able to adjust the speed to the delicacy required by the piece. My tendency is to work slower so as not to cut the wood to quickly.  You all do not seem to have missed having speed control.  How do you handle more fragile or delicate work?}

 

 

_{Thanks, Richard}

[rtropp]

My thought process so far:

 

Table Saw:

I looked at the Byrnes saw on their site as well as read comments on MSW.  I priced with added components that sounded important for my use, i.e., extended rip fence and zero clearance insert, I do not think I would need the tilting table, at least not at this time. It comes with a 24tooth carbide blade.  I am not sure if I would need a 36 tooth, or the 80 tooth early on. 

 

The Byrnes is kind of a stretch, but given the cost of wood such as Swiss Apple, I would want to avoid producing too much trash, and the Byrnes is the only saw for which there is consistently good reviews.

 

Sanding:

I have created sanding jigs, and they work reasonable for very small end cuts, etc. but, given the amount of sanding I do, I still lean towards the small workbench sander with its adjustable guides.  The Byrnes looks great but is a third more expensive.  I suspect I can get away using the Proxxon for sanding. 

 

Milling:

I think I understand your applications.  I need to learn more about milling, perhaps try it out.  I am going to continue looking for a reasonably effective x-y table to use with my Dremel work stand.  If I find the Dremel sanding set up limiting, I can always consider upgrading.  If not, there would not have been that much of an investment.

 

Scroll saw:

The jury is still out on this but they are inexpensive enough that it should not be too much of burden if I run across a real need. So, I will hold off for now.

 

Conclusion... at least for now:

So, given the great advice from everyone I am leaning towards buying the Proxxon Sander because I expect to use it as soon as it arrives.  Wonder how well it would do chamfers. The I would spend the extra for the Byrnes Table saw, even if I have to delay the saw. 

If anyone knows of a source for information (book, YouTube, etc.) about the type of Milling that Dirk discusses for wood models, please let me know.  All I can find seems to related to metal milling.

 

 

But, better get back to the boat or I will never move past the planking.

 

Again, I appreciate the time and help you all.

 

Richard

[dgbot]

Over the years I have found the Preac an invaluable tool.  However with the passing of Charlie Files, The Byrnes saw with a 80th blade is great for those small precision cuts when you need a square and clean cut.  Since I do not like to change blades I would alternate between the two.  The Byrnes saw has the power as well as the accuracy to do everything you need.  Just remember that it is not a toy but a serious power tool that dserves a lot of respect.  Always figure out how use use a push stick or a fixture to protect your pinkies on the smaller parts.

David B

[fnkershner]

On the subject of speed control for the sander - It may be just because I have never had speed control. But as I said I just change to a different grit depending on the type of sanding I need. And Dirk is right it is a matter of touch. I would suggest that precision sanding doesn't get any more difficult than sanding the taper of a plank. I set up the Byrnes sander with 400 grit and carefully run my plank trough. making sure it doesn't get caught in the slot. If gives me the straight edge I need. I also like to sand the face of the planks this way, just don't press too hard. I think by varying grit and pressure you can deal with the sanding without speed control.

[aliluke]

Hi Richard

I'm guessing this has drifted a little off the subject of your log - Syren. I don't want the following to further the discussion in your log - it could/should be sent to another forum - but I do want to say this...

 

Although I have no experience of power tools, I find a knife, a file and some sandpaper can do everything I want. Why buy all of this expensive stuff when you are not sure what to use it for? Keep your money in your pocket in my opinion. Power tools do not make you a better builder, they are just tools. I have no intention of ever using a power tool to make a model (I'll probably regret saying that...I'm tempted by a mill but only just tempted) and I like my models just fine. So do some other people...  I also find that without power tools my work space is easy to maintain - I don't need a lot of space.

 

I guess my point is that these machines might improve accuracy and speed but you are better off developing the accuracy by hand and then only look to the machines for increased speed and  (maybe) improved accuracy. In this hobby there is nothing a machine can do that you can't do by hand, my opinion again. You have only to look at the amazing models from the 18th C, made without power tools to get the point.

 

My preferred sequence is first knife, then file, then sand - seldom and with great care. For bigger pieces add in a hand saw at the front end. You'll spend longer figuring out how your machines work than it takes to do the basic woodworking.

 

Anyway - to get back on your topic. Your build looks very challenging and I look forward to your updates. Keep it simple and build! She's a beautiful ship.

 

Cheers

Alistair

[rtropp]

Thanks to all for your thoughts.

 

There is the challenge of improving hand skills and I am sure that will continue for me, but I am not a purist.  Part of the fun for me learning and using new tools. Also, I think they will be useful as I begin kit bashing or go to the dark side (begin scratch building.) Yes, there are those tools that just were bad ideas, and still will be.  Thankfully being able to sell on EBay cuts that cost down to manageable size. 

 

Floyd,

Given my skills, the speed control seems to be important.  For instance, I bought the proxxon pencil sander vs. the microlux because of the speed control.  I found that I am constantly changing the speed as well as the sandpaper to match the work I am doing.  I figured that the same would be true for the workbench sander.  Also the proxxon is less expensive.  Unless the guides or platen are really below par, it should work for me.

 

Another reason for buying the Proxxon sander is that I have my eye on the Byrnes saw, and that will set back my budget. I have some samples of wood coming my way and if they make as much difference as I have been hearing, I will need a good table saw and that is where I think I would need the most precision I can get.  The wood I ordered are only a few samples but they are not cheap so less waste is important.

 

Dgbot,

I will get the 80 tooth blade.  Also, I have spent a lot of time on Youtube lately and it helps to get an idea of the safety requirements.  I have been looking for local training but all of it is based on full size machines and I am not sure the skills are transferable.  My career has been white collar and at this stage I want to learn more about miniature tools including table saws, milling and lathe and the internet has been my most useful source.  Books just aren't the same.

 

 

Ok, time to get back to the boat.  My goal is to have the planking above the wales completed at most by the end of the labor day weekend.

 

Richard.

[rtropp]

Floyd,

I noticed on Dirk's Syren site that you are ordering some wood.  I ordered some a while ago just to test apple and boxwood.  Where do you get your wood from. I am looking for additional outlets.

 

Thanks

Richard

[rtropp]

Ok, time for a progress report.  I committed to finishing the planking above the wales by today, and have accomplished that... sort of.

 

The problem with the red paint is it really makes the errors stand out. The planking is not too bad, but the ports will need trimming.  I will do the cutting as shown by Dirk using a flat chisel to even things out.  On many ports there will be too much of an edge.  I will have to figure that out when I get to it.  Perhaps, even having some of the ports closed... that is if I can do a better job when I get to the port lids.

 

I had a couple of places where the planks were not close enough to the ones below.  So, instead of filler, I took some scrap from the planking and sanded them down to use as a wedge.  I don't think I ever worked with slivers of wood that thin. You kind of make one out on the third picture, third port.

 

 

 

 

 

Not sure if I should trim the portholes now or wait until I am working on the lids. Also, really tempted to sand what I have to see how it will look, but I am pretty sure I should wait until I have more of the planking done to avoid scratches. I appreciate any suggestions.

 

Meanwhile I will start on the stern planking next.

 

Richard

Edited September 2, 2013 by rtropp

[fnkershner]

Richard - It is a wise man that keeps a picture of the admiral at his bench. That way she knows you are always thinking of her.

 

As to the wood. Since chuck gets his wood from the Hobby Mill. I guess I can't go wrong.

[rtropp]

Floyd

Thanks, found this picture because my wife has me clearing through a lot of old files and storage boxes, some decades old.. This picture of her was always one of my favorites so I appropriated it.

 

Hobby Mill is where I placed my order.  Their lead time is pretty long (months) and I still have a little bit of a wait before I am scheduled to receive my order.  I wanted to see if there was any place else being used with a shorter lead time.  Of course, the long lead time probably means Hobby Mill is the "go to" place for wood and has a good reputation with modelers.   

 

Thanks,

Richard

[fnkershner]

There is also the Lumberyard - dlumberyard .com. I do think Jeff at Hobby mill is the best.

[rtropp]

^Floyd,

^{Thanks for the address contact.  I will check theirs.  Being new to this, wondered what points you look for that makes you prefer hobby mill. I have not see either yet... just curious about what you look for.}

[aliluke]

Richard

I'm surprised you have to wait for Jeff - I never have. But the wait is worth it! Superb product and very friendly service.

 

As to your sanding question - I say do not be tempted to test sanding to see how things look. It is a spiral of disaster - you'll over sand the area with no reference to the remainder of the planking and then you will over sand it again when you correct the rest of the planking to it.

 

Cheers

Alistair

[rtropp]

Alastair

Jeff has mentioned being booked through November.

 

I hear your advice and will not sand. It's just so tempting, but I won't. Instead I am continuing on.

I am trimming back the over planking at the stern in preparation for planking its planking . I have been reading articles on breaking the sides down to four zones and sizing each plank in it'd zone.

 

I get about an hour a day to work on it and it seems to be going too slowly but I end up causing more damage than good if I work at for too long a stretch. I start making mistakes.

 

At least when my wife is done with redecorating the house I get my work space back. Well

, at least she is not asking me to paint.

 

Thanks

Richard T.

Edited September 4, 2013 by rtropp

[fnkershner]

Richard - As to your inferred question how do you pick lumber vendors. For me it was an easy decision. Jeff is a member here, as well as a supporter. And most of the members here have dealt with him and had good experience. I must confess this will be my first order from him. But I am already in his debt, since he did such a good job of explaining how to cut planks on a Jim saw. I learned quite a bit from him.

[rtropp]

I had a similar experience with Jeff.  He was very helpful and took time to explain his process and how he schedules his work.  The due date for its arrival is still in the future but of course I am antsy to see it.

I read on his post that he is taking a month off for vacation (with his schedule he probably needs it.) that may have much to do with the lead time. 

 

I am still not sure if I should bash this kit.  It is my first and I am still making rookie errors that will show once it is done. 

 

Anyway, back to this boat. 

 

Thanks,

Richard

[augie]

Good advice there from Dirk.  You're on the learning curve.......in fact we ALL always are.  Remember where you started and, when you're finished you will be much surprised at how good she'll look.  Yes, there will be the inevitable 'woulda, shoulda, coulda's' ----- but that's called 'experience'. 

 

I don't believe anyone here on MSW can step up and say "I have built the all-time perfect model, without exception".  If they could, they would probably no longer be building.

 

Enjoy the journey.  It's more important than the destination.

[rtropp]

Guys

Good Advice,

 

I will test some of the woods discussed, in the logs but will not allow that to delay my build. Dirk, can you recall the size and quantity of planking you bought for the deck planking?

 

Dirk, I am beginning to realize that with these materials there is often a fix for when things go wrong. Hesitation at the prospect of making mistakes is more damaging than fixing them after woods. Better to keep going and learn to fix problems than agonize over them instead of building.

 

Augie,  you are right about gaining experience being the journey.  I am having a good deal of fun with all this, more than I thought I would, so I need to just keep pushing ahead.

 

 

Thanks for the motivation talk. Its really helpful.

Richard T

Edited September 4, 2013 by rtropp

[bhermann]

Hesitation at the prospect of making mistakes is more damaging than fixing them after woods. Better to keep going and learn to fix problems than agonize over them instead of building.

 

Richard - I think you have stated one of the keys to becoming a successful modeler with this statement.  As an over-analytical person (as the Admiral is happy to remind me), I find myself spending months at a time considering how to do the next step.  It would probably be better to jump in and give something a try, trash it if it doesn't work out, and try something else.  In the long run, there is more experience to be gained by giving it a shot than by sitting and thinking about it.

 

Your planking is looking very good so far - I will be following along as you get further into the build.

 

Bob

[rtropp]

Bob,

I am similar except my wife calls it anal-retentive.

In consulting we called this "analysis paralysis".  We would over analyze to the point where we could prove any point we were trying to make... and trust none of them

Richard

[rtropp]

Dirk,

Jeff at hobbymill tells me that the strips should all be cut from the same piece of wood so the color matches.  I think I will over order just to make sure. He sells in packages of six ( 23 or 24 inches per strip) so I will order 3 packages.  that should be enough.

 

Are you enjoying your vacation yet?  My wife's ancestors are from Ireland and she always talks about visiting.  Maybe one day. I'm looking forward to hearing a bit about your trip.

 

Richard T.

[Charley54]

Hey Richard

 

Ive been following all the Syren builds while I wait for the UPS guy to bring my kit. Just wanted to say hello. Really enjoying your build log. Im picking up all kinds of ideas from evryone.

 

Charley

[rtropp]

Hi all,

Its been awhile since I posted. This is all new to me and I have been going slowly. I believe I am getting a better feel for the cutting and sanding which is taking a fair amount of effort... and wood. I decided it was time to set aside some time to post what I have been up to.

 

The stern gave me some difficulty. I believe I was not as exact as I should have been it installing the stern posts and am paying for that now. By the way, I still have not evened out the gun ports. I think I want to see how the port covers come out before I do. Not sure if that is a good idea yet.

 

 

 

And finally ended up with this

 

 

Next I moved on to planking. I have reviewed a few different sources, especially Chuck's, about how to layout the hull planking. My first attempt was to create bands and then measure the sizes of the planks in each band on each bulkhead. (6 or 7 strakes per band.)

 

 

I found this to be unwieldy. Probably because the artists tape I used was too wide. But, even so, I decided to try the same technique but just mark off the entire bulkhead instead of sections. By the way, Chuck, thanks for the Fan Template. It made things a lot easier and also made a lot more sense. Also, it is just big enough to work for the entire bulkhead instead of a band at a time.

 

 

This just seem to work better for me. below is one of the strakes being formed. Truth is I went through a few to just get that one.

 

 

The next pictures show the first two strakes below the wales. On the bow they come to a pretty small end, about 1/32. I only had to thin the planks for about four bulkheads from the bow then leave them at their 1/8". I am still not satisfied with the appearance of the stern and the hull planking where it terminates at the stern is not helping. I expect that it will require some filler and judicious sanding. Perhaps as I get more practice it will improve on the port side.

 

 

I also noticed that the planks above the wales look a lot dirtier. This is the result of using pencil to create the caulking effect and just not being neat enough. I am hoping that when I finally sand the hull the dirty look will go away.

I have reviewed the "spiling" section in Chuck's instructions as well as a few other sources. Looks like something to avoid at all costs

I have not needed to do this yet (at least I don't think I did.) I use the plank bender shown a few pages back. It seems to work well for me and I found that if I use it at an angle, I am able to make some of the more tortuous bends. I have not damaged any planks or left any marks... yet. Not having to soak and heat planks really makes things easier (at least less messy and time consuming.)

 

If I do come to the point where I need to Spile, I will first buy a lot of extra planking. I would appreciate if any of you (especially those working on the Syren), could tell me if you needed to spile, and if so was it a specific part of the hull.

 

Anyway, that's all for now.

 

Richard T.

[augie]

Richard....wait until you get more input.  But it looks to me as if you've already spiled or tapered the two lowermost planks.  If you wish to get into true spiling you may want to get some wider plank stock.

[aliluke]

Richard, I agree with Augie there - you need wider stock to spile. I do not intend to go there with my ships even if it compromises historical accuracy. I find stealers and drop planks do the job along with plain tapering. When my confidence and skill improves I may go there...

 

Your planking looks good to me. Given your excellent layouts I guess it is just a single layer? As for the dirt - it definitely should sand out. My Fly deck with pencil caulking looked like hell before sanding and now I just have the fine lines.

 

As for a plank nipper - whatever flies your kite in my opinion. The main risk is that you will thin the planks at the most critical bends and this will give you less leeway when sanding. Wetting and bending retains plank thickness. That said I got through my first hull entirely with a nipper and with no bad outcomes.

 

Just my thoughts.

 

Cheers

Alistair

[rtropp]

Augie,

I will wait for the next model to consider true spiling. What I am doing now seems to work and, since this is my first kit, historical accuracy may suffer at the hands of learning craft skills.

 

Alistair,

I'm pleased to hear your use of the nipper left no ill effects. Are you still using it or have you switched to wetting and bending?

 

Richard

[Gahm]

Richard, it looks to me like your planking is coming along very nicely. And were spiling is concerned I used very little during the planking of the Syren hull . . . and where I used it I did not think very much about it but just "adjusted" the one or other plank for a better fit 

 

Thomas