Cutty Sark by bcochran - Revell - 1/96 - PLASTIC

[shipman]

All pertinent questions. Ultimately, you have to decide on details gleaned from what is available.

I lean towards Longridge; he was an educated man and I'm sure his reasons for how he did things are in his book somewhere.

 

Revell: Their first US hull moldings included portholes along the full length of the ship. This was corrected before the kit was introduced in the UK.

Apparently Revell went to a lot of trouble to get things right; either the sent someone over or employed someone here to do a thorough job of recording the ship when first displayed in the dry dock.

After a thorough search of photos at that time, the portholes were indeed there. These had been introduced when the ship was a sail training vessel, giving light and ventilation to the students accommodation.

There are too few photos of the ship when employed to train young seamen, but what there are show many details now long gone. For instance the boat booms were mounted alongside the fore deck-house; the upper deck was partitioned off by several transverse bulkheads....and so on.

The removal of the row of portholes must have been done late 1950's/60's.

 

I assume the first four photos are of the Longridge model?

Edited May 7, 2022 by shipman
Adition.

[bcochran]

44 minutes ago, shipman said:

All pertinent questions. Ultimately, you have to decide on details gleaned from what is available.

I lean towards Longridge; he was an educated man and I'm sure his reasons for how he did things are in his book somewhere.

 

Revell: Their first US hull moldings included portholes along the full length of the ship. This was corrected before the kit was introduced in the UK.

Apparently Revell went to a lot of trouble to get things right; either the sent someone over or employed someone here to do a thorough job of recording the ship when first displayed in the dry dock.

After a thorough search of photos at that time, the portholes were indeed there. These had been introduced when the ship was a sail training vessel, giving light and ventilation to the students accommodation.

There are too few photos of the ship when employed to train young seamen, but what there are show many details now long gone. For instance the boat booms were mounted alongside the fore deck-house; the upper deck was partitioned off by several transverse bulkheads....and so on.

The removal of the row of portholes must have been done late 1950's/60's.

 

I assume the first four photos are of the Longridge model?

The first two are Longridge, the next two are Sankey's Revell model.

[Kevin-the-lubber]

You've probably started a stampede for that chain 🙂. Periodically I go to the one remaining model shop in this neck of the woods, which fortunately is very good and covers everything imaginable. You could spend hours in there. Whatever I've gone for I graze as well, just to see what might come in handy, and you're right that there's a wealth of stuff for the model train community. Also RC planes and boats, some of which readily crosses over and is already well known to ship modellers i.e. silkspan, carbon fibre etc etc.

 

It seems like mine is going to be a wool clipper - but only because I've stuck a load of wool bales in the main hold as cargo. I was going to put tea in there but tea chests at 1/96 just look like a miniature rubics cube.

[bcochran]

This is interesting. Compare Underhill's plans of the forecastle with Campbell's and Revell's.  Underhill has two plans. One with an up and down type windlass and one without. Also the capstand is in a different position on both. The break of the forecastle is a straight line with a ladder or steps in the center.

 

Campbell's is similar to what Revell has done except he has pin rails where Revell has steps.  Campbell doesn't have any way to get from the main deck to the forecastle.

 

So which do you want for your accurate model? Revell, Underhill, Campbell or something else altogether?  Was the Cutty Sark really that different during it's sailing days? Can we really pick one plan for our models and say we are accurate without reference to a period of Cutty Sark's life?  Do our models represent the ship at any particular time in its life at all?

 

 

Edited May 7, 2022 by bcochran

[shipman]

Without photographs (which could be used during most of Cutty's life)......NOBODY KNOWS 🤓

 

Please remind me.....who is/was Sankey and where is the model?

Edited May 7, 2022 by shipman
new sentence

[Kevin-the-lubber]

There's more; campbells forecastle protrudes further aft than revell, the capstan is further forward, and the catheads further back. I prefer campbells forecastle, to my eye it accentuates the sharpness of the bow profile. Even if Underhill was the definitive plan I think I would still go with campbell in this area, just for the aesthetics. However, the more you seek to work from these plans the more you realise they are representations rather than true plans. I have a feeling campbell didn't always take the trouble  to measure things! For instance, the profile of the carrick bitts on both campbell and revell are out of proportion, they are wide skinny little things whereas the real mccoy are hefty chunks of (I assume) hardwood. Given what they do, you'd want them to have a bit of girth. To complicate things further, in Campbell's 'last of the famous tea clippers', his descriptions are based on the square cut forecastle, presumably underhills model; so I imagine the plans we all know and love are from a different time.

 

 

In the same book Campbell shows a slightly different windlass to that on his plans or revell.

So, I think it's really down to whatever you think is in keeping with your intent. I'll stick my neck out and suggest that clippers were no different to any other complicated machine in one respect; bits were constantly swapped, changed, ditched, added, as part of normal repair and maintenance and whatever we work from now is probably only ever a representation of how it was for a relatively short period. 

 

 

[bcochran]

41 minutes ago, shipman said:

Without photographs (which could be used during most of Cutty's life)......NOBODY KNOWS 🤓

 

Please remind me.....who is/was Sankey and where is the model? 

It's here : https://www.johnsankey.ca/cuttysark.html  Sankey is the grandson of one of the apprentices on the Cutty Sark when Wallace was captain. He was on the hell ship voyage.

[shipman]

Ah, yes. Thank you.

I've read so much over the years; at some point recollections can get a bit cloudy. Thankfully a chance detail comes up which helps put 'new planks on an old hull', so to speak.

 

It's worth knowing that nearly all the wooden structures and masts etc were in open storage at Chatham when the fire occurred. So as the ship is now displayed, all or most of what you see was as it was before the fire.

The fire consumed all the contractors equipment and the temporary 'tent', but not much of the ship itself, with much of the iron framing surviving, if a little charred and maybe distorted a little.

Not withstanding any modern errors during reconstruction we are lucky to have what is at least a true monument to the ship and ships (long gone) of that era.

[bcochran]

5 hours ago, shipman said:

Ah, yes. Thank you.

I've read so much over the years; at some point recollections can get a bit cloudy. Thankfully a chance detail comes up which helps put 'new planks on an old hull', so to speak.

 

It's worth knowing that nearly all the wooden structures and masts etc were in open storage at Chatham when the fire occurred. So as the ship is now displayed, all or most of what you see was as it was before the fire.

The fire consumed all the contractors equipment and the temporary 'tent', but not much of the ship itself, with much of the iron framing surviving, if a little charred and maybe distorted a little.

Not withstanding any modern errors during reconstruction we are lucky to have what is at least a true monument to the ship and ships (long gone) of that era.

I hear that the Cutty Sark is the last remaining clipper. We have the Star of India (Ramsey Shipyard in the Isle of Man in 1863) in San Diego, which still sails and the

Balclutha (launched in 1886 by the Charles Connell and Company shipyard near Glasgow, Scotland) in San Francisco. Both are iron clippers.

[shipman]

Neither the Star of India or Balclutha were never designed or used as TEA clippers.

[bcochran]

6 hours ago, shipman said:

Neither the Star of India or Balclutha were never designed or used as TEA clippers.

Yes, but they were clippers

[bcochran]

I got my Amati cord and my 45 link per inch chain

[bcochran]

Look at this picture from Longridge's book, It looks like the shrouds are attached to hearts, then the hearts are attached to the deadeyes.  I've always seen models with shrouds attached to only the deadeyes.

[shipman]

Well spotted. They aren't like that now are they.

[bcochran]

1 hour ago, shipman said:

Well spotted. They aren't like that now are they.

Wouldn't it be great if we had the date of these pictures and where they were taken?

 

What is the large rope along the lower area of the bulwark for?  It is hanging by ropes tied to the rail, I think. It might be some kind of protection against things crashing into the stanchions and such during rough seas.   I read in Lubbuck's book of several times when the deck as completely underwater and all that could be seen from above were the masts sticking out of the foam. Items not tied down must have crashed into the firm stationary parts of the deck.

 

I notice from reading other logs of the recent past that we seem to be discussing the same issues over again.  I'd like to see a compilation of all the discussions sorted by topic from all the different logs, such as all the forecastle discussions.  One item talked about more than once was the anchor chain.  The chain had to be laying on the deck from the windlass to the pipes going down to the chin locker when the hatch was open for loading and unloading I'd think.

 

Edited May 8, 2022 by bcochran

[Kevin-the-lubber]

1 hour ago, shipman said:

They aren't like that now are they

Not quite, but they still allow for the fact that you can't bend cables into a tight angle; my guess is that the diameter of the cables has been slightly reduced for today's display ship, to reduce the strain, and taking into account the masts are never going to be subjected to the stresses of being under sail. I wouldn't mind betting that those hearts/thimbles were in fact steel or even cast iron, but that is just a guess. Interesting, isn't it, that the modern equivalents are still called thimbles

[bcochran]

I may try something like this to reeve (is that the right word?) deadeyes off the ship.  I'ts a third hand from micro mark.

[shipman]

Yo!

 

#192 if that's 45lpi chain would you mind telling where it was bought, please?

 

#193/195/196

The rope would indeed be a good fender.

The 'thimbles' would certainly be iron or steel. Attaching the shrouds like that would certainly make maintenance/ repairs to the deadeye/lanyard assembly more practical. Should a top deadeye fail it would be a bugger of a job turning the cable around a new deadeye.

 

#192  it would be a good idea to put some tape or shrink wrap around the teeth of those clips to avoid damage to whatever they are holding.

 

Many moons ago I too suggested an index as you suggest. It was pointed out to me....'someone would have a time consuming job on their hands; are you volunteering?'

 

 

[Kevin-the-lubber]

The third hand is a very good idea. I spent ages doing one pair last night using a jig I made, when the third hand would have been better. I’ll have to find mine.

[shipman]

Don't forget, due to the angles of the shrouds the distances between top and bottom deadeyes varies front to back (fore and aft). That is if you want a nice straight line along the top deadeyes.

[LeoM]

On 5/7/2022 at 6:24 PM, bcochran said:

This is interesting. Compare Underhill's plans of the forecastle with Campbell's and Revell's.  Underhill has two plans. One with an up and down type windlass and one without. Also the capstand is in a different position on both. The break of the forecastle is a straight line with a ladder or steps in the center.

 

Campbell's is similar to what Revell has done except he has pin rails where Revell has steps.  Campbell doesn't have any way to get from the main deck to the forecastle.

 

So which do you want for your accurate model? Revell, Underhill, Campbell or something else altogether?  Was the Cutty Sark really that different during it's sailing days? Can we really pick one plan for our models and say we are accurate without reference to a period of Cutty Sark's life?  Do our models represent the ship at any particular time in its life at all?

 

 

Can I add some more drawings?

The one below is from JJ van Griethuysen from Nederlandse Vereniging van Modelbouwers (NVM). There are available when the vessel was trading in the tra trade as well as in the wooltrade.Foc'sle.pdf

[bcochran]

3 hours ago, LeoM said:

Can I add some more drawings?

The one below is from JJ van Griethuysen from Nederlandse Vereniging van Modelbouwers (NVM). There are available when the vessel was trading in the tra trade as well as in the wooltrade.Foc'sle.pdf

That is much like Revell's forecastle. Do you have the whole  ship plans?

Edited May 9, 2022 by bcochran

[bcochran]

5 hours ago, shipman said:

Don't forget, due to the angles of the shrouds the distances between top and bottom deadeyes varies front to back (fore and aft). That is if you want a nice straight line along the top deadeyes.

At the moment, I am dreading the deadeyes.

[bcochran]

6 hours ago, shipman said:

Yo!

 

#192 if that's 45lpi chain would you mind telling where it was bought, please?

 

#193/195/196

The rope would indeed be a good fender.

The 'thimbles' would certainly be iron or steel. Attaching the shrouds like that would certainly make maintenance/ repairs to the deadeye/lanyard assembly more practical. Should a top deadeye fail it would be a bugger of a job turning the cable around a new deadeye.

 

#192  it would be a good idea to put some tape or shrink wrap around the teeth of those clips to avoid damage to whatever they are holding.

 

Many moons ago I too suggested an index as you suggest. It was pointed out to me....'someone would have a time consuming job on their hands; are you volunteering?'

 

 

I got the chain on Ebay in the HO model train auction place.

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/185281815105?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649 

 

He is out now, but more may show up soon.  You can contact the seller.

 

No I am not volunteering. Isn't there some software  that recognizes words that could do it?

Edited May 9, 2022 by bcochran

[bcochran]

5 hours ago, shipman said:

Yo!

 

#192 if that's 45lpi chain would you mind telling where it was bought, please?

 

#193/195/196

The rope would indeed be a good fender.

The 'thimbles' would certainly be iron or steel. Attaching the shrouds like that would certainly make maintenance/ repairs to the deadeye/lanyard assembly more practical. Should a top deadeye fail it would be a bugger of a job turning the cable around a new deadeye.

 

#192  it would be a good idea to put some tape or shrink wrap around the teeth of those clips to avoid damage to whatever they are holding.

 

Many moons ago I too suggested an index as you suggest. It was pointed out to me....'someone would have a time consuming job on their hands; are you volunteering?'

 

 

The alligator clips seem too strong for them, you are right.  I think MIcro Mark may have something better.

[Bill97]

Hello bcochran. After your post on my Victory build I thought I would check out your Cutty Sark. Absolutely beautiful job!  Very impressive. Your Cutty Sark work is definitely a level above mine.  I for sure remember me having a discussion here on MSW about it he windlass and the running of the anchor chain. Will have to look back to that.  I read through your entire build here and find it very interesting. I will follow along to see how this goes. I also used Testors enamels on my Cutty Sark and USS Constitution before that. Since then I switched to Vallejo acrylics because for me they are just easier to work with, although not nearly as durable. I see where you said you are turning 76 soon?  I hit the big 70 in August. 

Edited May 9, 2022 by Bill97

[bcochran]

2 hours ago, Bill97 said:

Hello bcochran. After your post on my Victory build I thought I would check out your Cutty Sark. Absolutely beautiful job!  Very impressive. Your Cutty Sark work is definitely a level above mine.  I for sure remember me having a discussion here on MSW about it he windlass and the running of the anchor chain. Will have to look back to that.  I read through your entire build here and find it very interesting. I will follow along to see how this goes. I also used Testors enamels on my Cutty Sark and USS Constitution before that. Since then I switched to Vallejo acrylics because for me they are just easier to work with, although not nearly as durable. I see where you said you are turning 76 soon?  I hit the big 70 in August. 

So nice to hear from you, Bill.  Your Victory is very inspiring.  I find everyone's build enjoyable.  I like to see the different interpretations each modeler has. We aren't in any kind of competition, I think we share the hobby and the fun and the exchange of ideas.  I will be 76 on Saturday.  I am not sure if I can handle rigging at my age, finger dexterity  and frustration you know.

[bcochran]

I've thought about making a fixture or jig for reeving deadeyes off the ship like this.  It is two pieces of plastic or wood that holds the deadeyes the proper space apart during reeving. You could hold it in the third hand clamps.  You can make one for any size deadeye.  Just drill out the proper size holes, the proper distance apart, then saw it in two with a razor saw. When done reeving, you open it up and take out the finished deadeyes.  You would need to be sure when closed the jig holds the deadeyes securely, so they don't move. That would happen if you drilled the hole so the deadeye fit snug, then when you saw them apart the two halves would fit together closer than before the cut.

 

When finished, you then strop the lower deadeye with the method of your choice.

Edited May 9, 2022 by bcochran

[Kevin-the-lubber]

I’ll post my version 1 jig this evening after work (how I envy you retirees), it’s along the same lines as yours. On my first ever attempt this weekend, reeving the lanyards was quite easy, using a needle threader, it was stropping to a shroud that I found hard, as the deadeye has to be correctly orientated to the shrouds centreline. I’m sure people can tell us easier ways but for now I’m thinking of making a little tight fitting toggle to snug up the shroud on the deadeye while I wrap thread around it. I realised too that I’ll need a serving machine straight away whereas I’d thought that would still be months away. And that I’d better get a handle on the terminology as it’s like a foreign language at the moment.

[shipman]

re #204 thank you.

unfortunately that supplier says they won't ship to UK!?!