Vasa By 72Nova - FINISHED - Airfix - PLASTIC

[72Nova]

Thank you Waldemar for your valuable input that's always well received and posting those drawings, just what I needed. rerouting the rudder ropes is an easy fix since I left them long enough to pass through the tiller opening.

 

Michael D.

[kirill4]

Michael, Waldemar, thank you very much for such interesting inputs!

Michael, I meant that holes used for towing boats or mooring purposes... on my model I still need to correct them/ location of rudder ropes/or one rope...?

Waldemar,

Regarding those loops on the fore and main stays often visible on the  drawings of galleons...

a few years ago when I was trying to solve this puzzle ... finally I decided to show one loop only as kind of compromise(don't remember now why didn't make  two? :))) , this loop on the stay  I've made from free end of the stay rope after making stay loop over mast head- I used some simple knot to form a loop, but not classical mouse... and formed loop from the running end of the stay rope...

Edited January 9, 2023 by kirill4

[72Nova]

You're welcome Kirill and if I can make an educated guess I'd say they would be routed in a similar fashion, but I would use 2 ropes given the size and weight of the rudder. I was getting a headache looking at that stay rigging diagram Waldemar posted and would say yours is a good compromise, I would imagine I do not need to worry about that setup on the Vasa and go with the mouse on stay.

 

Michael D.

[Waldemar]

 

I too seem to be getting headaches from these mysterious coils already. As for the actual number of rudder ropes, normally one, but that's definitely for a slightly later period. As on many drawings by van de Velde's or on the famous Hohenzollern model of 1660–1670 (shown in the two black and white photos below). But...

 

The Vasa has two holes in her rudder evidently for this purpose, and not just one. So Landström's interpretation showing two ropes instead of only one seems reasonable too. I have included also his illustration with this feature below.

 

 

 

 

 

[Waldemar]

 

@kirill4

 

Kirill, many thanks for the clarification, but it's still not enough. We need to establish the purpose of these coils in the first place. Then maybe the way they were formed will become clear.

 

Always on the main- and forestay only, always in pairs, and always very close to the fighting tops.

 

???

 

 

Edited January 10, 2023 by Waldemar

[kirill4]

Smtng runs around, but not able to catch it! :)))

... and,  there is ,when two coils presented on the drawings, no mouse arrangement as a rule, as far as I could see ...

and one more, in this case ,

#top mast couldnt be lowered with help of top mast rope , it is lashed straight to the masttop?

#Topmast cap is in rudementar form as a rule...means only half of the mast cap shown?

And viseversa in later period - have full size of mastcap, no lashing top mast to the masttop, have stay mouse, no double coils on the stays...? 

More questions than answers...

Edited January 10, 2023 by kirill4

[72Nova]

Maybe for some form of garnet tackle?, positioned up towards the top like they are would allow them to handle more weight then say the stay tackle that's usually positioned about mid stay but then again there are tackle pendants. Stabbing in the dark here.

 

Michael D.

[Baker]

12 hours ago, Waldemar said:

 

I too seem to be getting headaches from these mysterious coils already. As for the actual number of rudder ropes, normally one, but that's definitely for a slightly later period. As on many drawings by van de Velde's or on the famous Hohenzollern model of 1660–1670 (shown in the two black and white photos below). But...

 

The Vasa has two holes in her rudder evidently for this purpose, and not just one. So Landström's interpretation showing two ropes instead of only one seems reasonable too. I have included also his illustration with this feature below.

 

 

 

 

 

 

And the same method on the Batavia replica

https://www.modelships.de/Museums_and_replicas/Batavia/Photos_Batavia.htm

 

 

Is just an idea.
These holes may have served to tow the long boat

See   https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Anthony_Roll/Second_roll

 

[Waldemar]

 

Or should we hold a competition with prizes for solving that elusive stay coils puzzle? It often works...

 

 

 

 Wanted Double Coil Solution! 

                Dead or Alive              

 

 

Edited January 10, 2023 by Waldemar

[kirill4]

Sometimes it looks like these coils they don' t belong to the stays, but they are some separate parts

[kirill4]

I want to ask Ab Hoving to inlight this puzzle

[kirill4]

drop it on the SOS forum 

Post in thread 'Ever considered to scratch-build from card?' https://shipsofscale.com/sosforums/threads/ever-considered-to-scratch-build-from-card.4676/post-284965

Edited January 10, 2023 by kirill4

[ccoyle]

4 minutes ago, kirill4 said:

drop it on the SOS forum

 

No need. Ab is a member here and can be reached by private message.

[kirill4]

 ops ,

I'm sorry than... I didn't know ,than of course it will be better to ask him here? not on the other forum... but better not private ...

ah... Das he have any thread / building report here to place this question?

[kirill4]

sent him private message

[ccoyle]

50 minutes ago, kirill4 said:

Das he have any thread / building report here to place this question?

 

You can always get a member's attention by using the @ symbol. Example:

 

1 hour ago, kirill4 said:

Sometimes it looks like these coils they don' t belong to the stays, but they are some separate parts

 

Hey, @Ab Hoving, do you have any input on this discussion?

[kirill4]

Oh! It is just ... great ! looks it is easiest way to send question to somebody or ask someone opininion about  ... thank You very much !

[Snug Harbor Johnny]

9 hours ago, kirill4 said:

Sometimes it looks like these coils they don' t belong to the stays, but they are some separate parts

  Maybe they are what they appear top be ... a couple of coils of rope that happen to be tied on to a stay.  Why, one wonders?  Well, what if a crewman happens to need some rope?  Instead of going deckside to get some (or having someone else bring a hank up), there are a couple coils in reserve - just in case.  We know that the 'old' way sails were furled involved gathering a bunch in the middle and bunching it at the mast, so they'd need some rope for that.  What if some rope was dropped by accident?  Having a couple coils handy would do to save time.

 

  OK, here's a 'wild' idea of you could do with a coil (if its coiled around the stay and held in place with a skip knot).  Say a guy had to get to the deck in a HURRY ... (a call of nature?  a sudden incapacity?)  Then he could grab the bottom of the coil, free the slip knot and ride the shroud down like a 'zip line' !

Edited January 11, 2023 by Snug Harbor Johnny

[Waldemar]

 

I have to admit that I was also thinking of these coils as spar ropes, or as extra protection for the yards during battle etc. I also looked into some nautical works and found something very close. Among others in Bonnefoux, Pâris, Dictionnaire de la marine à voile,1856, in van Beylen, Zeilvaart lexicon, 1985 and also in Harland, Myers, Seamanship in the Age of Sail, 1984.

 

Below just an extract from Harland:

 

The problem is 'only' that in the paintings the furled sails do not use these chambrières / slaglijnen at all.

 

 

Edited January 10, 2023 by Waldemar

[kirill4]

Good day,

Waldemar,

Very interesting founds!

Thanks!

[Ab Hoving]

Sorry to disappoint you Kirill, but I have not the faintest. It seems to be part of the old rigging type, when even the lower yards were lowered and hoisted to manage the sails. Or it has to do, as mentioned  here with the lashed topmasts, who knows? I am not aware of any sources, other than the ones mentioned here. Even Anderson has nothing about them. They do look like coils of rope but to what purpose? I don't know.

[Jaager]

Could they be misinterpretations or hallucinations of an artist who does not understand what he is seeing?

[kirill4]

Dear Ab,

Thank You very much for reply,

Maybe one day it could happened that  unswer will be found unexpectacly ...I hope so !

Wish You all the Best!

[kirill4]

Just now, Jaager said:

Could they be misinterpretations or hallucinations of an artist who does not understand what he is seeing?

It could be , why not... but this arrangement could be regulary seen on many pictures of different authors in certain period - 16th very beginning of 17th century, than these coils disappears ...

[Waldemar]

 

Thank you all. For the time being, and just for my personal use, I consider these coils to be temporary holders for the two heaviest yards, used only in very special situations (say, like replacing worn or otherwise out-of-service yard hoisting ropes). However, any other convincing solutions are always welcomed.

 

 

[72Nova]

It was a good research project that's still on the back burner in my mind. Rudder ropes rerouted and the capstan is complete, the crew member stands a little over 6' at scale, probably a tad taller than the average man at the time but for scale purposes it looks good.

 

Michael D.

[kirill4]

ОТЛИЧНО! Well Done!!!

[Waldemar]

 

Now perfect! I don't think I'll ever forget Ab Hoving's words (from memory): „having seen many dozens of wrecks and models of Dutch ships from this era, I can't even imagine a single instance where the lowest strakes don't cover the sternpost”.

 

But I promise to not interfere with your build at least for a while...

 

🙂

 

 

[72Nova]

Thank you gentlemen, the task at the moment is completing the channels and the closed gun port lid ropes.

 

Michael D.

[Hubac's Historian]

Superb!  Where did you source the crew figure?  Or, did you carve him from scratch?